On Security Valid-killing

[Guest]

Right. During my time on Aurora, there have been many cases of needless killings by security. We've all seen them. We've all seen complaints concerning them. And last of all, we've all seen how messy, from a discussion standpoint, they tend to get. What bothers me the most, is how often it turns into a tossing game, as people debate if it's an OOC or an IC issue. If it's the latter, it's often just quietly swept under the rug.

It being IC issue probably implies that it's an antag round. This is where the discussion often ends as IC things need to be dealt through IC means. The obvious issue is that anything antag-related is wiped from the canon, thus, the perp can go ahead with their valid-killing habits once more, without any fear of offical repercussions.

So, I'm not really suggesting anything with this post, as in a change of current ruleset (some people like status quo). This is more like an open invite to discuss how far killings by non-antags can go during antag rounds. What are your thoughts on this?

[coolbc2000]

To be honest, i can ONLY go to Self-Defence. That is the only one that could do justice. But there was this one round, where Hive's IPC was a An-tag (Or well atleast i fucking hope so) Where the other security officers attacked him (I think? Thats what i got in LOCC) and he acted in self defence by kill two of them and critting one, i still gave him the Manslaughter charge because ICly did not know at all.

Anything else they should be brigged.

[Synnono]

As someone who doesn't (typically) kill people and has yet to start a round as an antagonist, the current rules surrounding combat have made me shy away from even trying security, as well as doing anything violent - even when my character might have as the result of a heightened emotional state, or a standout RP situation, or a rare moment of heroism.

It seems like whenever one of these circumstances occurs, the complaints board lights up with a victim or spectator's account of that character acting unbelievably or unrealistically. Sometimes these even show up on the Ban Requests forum, which is a thing I find to be a little crazy, and I feel like people might be oversensitive to it.

By playing mostly antagonist rounds, we're placing our normal borderline sane characters into extraordinary non-canon situations ALL the time. Characters can and should crack, cross lines, and otherwise behave like their players believe they should in an unexpected emergency, or a moment of rage. Due to the non-canon nature of negative events, most of these players are being encouraged not to develop their characters away from these tendencies without some kind of extra, external influence from a canon source.

This is easiest to observe with security, because most often they're the team in possession of weapons and authority, and they're expected to be in the face of the threat. If a security character feels that they NEED to kill someone, or if the character is out of control and actually roleplaying it (that is, not walking up to someone wordlessly and blasting their face in), I think that's valid roleplay and shouldn't be a huge problem. Or a problem at all, if everyone could be aware - maybe onlookers typically aren't.

Now for the other side of that coin - dying does suck for the player of the victim, and the point (antagonists and crew alike) is to create/have fun. It's not fun to have to play someone else or wait out 90 minutes of a round because you were harmbatoned to death at the 0:30 mark. Maybe there's an element of power-gaming to be aware of as the character holding the baton. You can render someone critical and unconscious pretty easily when you're hurting them. There's probably a point where the character might be satisfied that they've "killed" someone when that character is actually just in a dying state. Executions that ensure an immediate, unrecoverable death should probably be used very sparingly, and never without some kind of storytelling to accompany it. Doing something like a decapitation or gibbing just to remove a threat from the round is anticlimactic and doesn't entertain anyone.

As a last thought, even if that does happen - errybody relax, it's just a game. Like Garn put it in one of the recent complaints:

 

Why cant we just learn to roll with situations like this?

Edited January 10, 2016 by Guest

[Chaznoodles]

If it furthers roleplay, then it's great. Roleplay is all about saying yes.

If it's killing them because they're allowed to, then no. That doesn't further roleplay.

[Eliot Clef]

There is, in my experience, an unspoken and usually followed SOP of when to engage lethally and actually deliberately try to kill somebody. I think it's pretty OK.

1) Simplest and most straightforward, is the antag engaging with lethal methods? Long ranged lethals especially. If you're shooting at one another, no point holding back, it's OK to fight back lethally.

2) A little more complex: Is the antag of a type that possesses powers making it unable to be effectively contained, and has used this to avoid containment while hurting people or otherwise causing problems that would necessitate subduing them non-lethally if you could? Vampires, Wizards, and Changelings oh my. If you're one of these antag types, take the abilities that make it impossible to pin you down, and then use them, you're probably going to be killed out of necessity. Wizards can get out of being killed for this if they're not being too violent.

3) Do you only have a lethal means of subduing somebody? Most people won't object to a Detective unloading a revolver into somebody coming at them, if it's the only thing they've got to viably defend themselves.

Occasionally this isn't followed. Sometimes somebody will flip their shit and beat an antag to death for personal reasons. For instance, if the antag killed their character's friends/relatives/whatever. I'm honestly usually OK with murderous antags getting their comeuppance in a not-strictly-by-the-book way, but occasionally you'll get really dumb lynch mobs that I think shouldn't happen. (I've had this happen with more-or-less contained antags actually, and it's really obnoxious to deal with.)

[Killerhurtz]

IMO there should be four "levels" of it.

Level one: The individual cannot be proven to have either the means or motive/willingness to harm the crew. Standard operating procedure applies.

Level two: The individual can be proven, with evidence/statements, they they either have the means or motive/willingness to harm the crew. Raise alert level, individual should be watched closely.

Level three: The individual can be proven to have both the means AND motive/willingness to kill the crew, or is actively harming them. A report should be made, and signatures would be needed (depending on who is available, the chain follows this order: Captain>HoS>HoP>RD/CMO/CE>Warden>Detective>3 Security officers>all available security officers, if less than three can sign). Following this, arrangements for containment (or an execution if containment is deemed impossible) should be made.

Level four: The individual is actively killing crew. Red Alert, lethals are authorized.

[Conservatron]

there should be an antag option to replace all weapons in the armory with nerf guns and beanbags.

Like they have to emag the communications console on the bridge and it initiates a bluespace swap but only on green alert so they have to not get caught

[hivefleetchicken]

To be honest, i can ONLY go to Self-Defence. That is the only one that could do justice. But there was this one round, where Hive's IPC was a An-tag (Or well atleast i fucking hope so) Where the other security officers attacked him (I think? Thats what i got in LOCC) and he acted in self defence by kill two of them and critting one, i still gave him the Manslaughter charge because ICly did not know at all.

Anything else they should be brigged.

 

Foolish is he who underestimates the power of the baton.

Yet even further, foolish is he who puts Hive into critical and lets Hive live to tell the tale.

Furious justice comes for all who doth ignore these precious testaments you speak of and enable the former.

Hive is everywhere.

[Guest]

Just don't go full-blown Commissar on the antags, please. I think that's all anyone asks.

[hivefleetchicken]

TAKE NO PRISONERS

LET THE EMPEROR JUDGE THEM WITH RIGHTEOUS FIRE

[Guest]