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Staff Complaint: Loow

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BYOND Key: NanakoAC

Staff BYOND Key: Loow

Reason for complaint: Declaring an issue to be IC, which i disagree with

Evidence/logs/etc:I've been told that i have to file a staff complaint, rather than a player complaint, because Loow decreed this to be an IC issue, and thus i'm not allowed to file a complaint against the player in question (UnkownMurder) without first contesting the staff decision.

The incident is thus:

UM Arrived quite late in the shift as Alex Graves. At this time, Evelyn fermi, as a traitor antag, was hiding out on the science outpost and defending it with a laser cannon. The captain went down there for some reason, and was killed.

The captain's body was swiftly recovered by our paramedic, brought back to medical, and cloned. However in the short time that he was dead, Alex Graves declared himself Acting Captain, and called an emergency evac shuttle.

Immediately after the shuttle was called, and then repeatedly for several minutes after, various players asked him to recall it, stating that the situation was under control. The most prominent of those was myself, representing medical, and LordRaven, representing engineering.

The supermatter core had been ejected earlier, but the substations were charged and everything was still running fine. A new supermatter had already been ordered, it might even have been installed by the end of round, so the power situation was handled.

At some point, the AI was subverted, but the laws it were given were more interesting and fun, than outright dangerous. It was nevertheless dealt with and emittered to death. The captain was brought back to perfect health, several personnel injured by fermi were also rescued, treated for burns, and back on their feet by the time the shuttle arrived. The security department was low in numbers, one officer i think, but evelyn fermi was only one person too. I'm sure alberyk could have handled her, properly equipped, especially with graves and the captain assisting. But even if not, if he was worried about their inability to handle the situation, he should have called an ERT.

LordRaven dealt with the AI and repaired all the damage to the station, i ghosted around at the end and everything looked pretty good. There was a vine outbreak in xenoflora, but it was very mild, one person with a fireaxe could have handled it easily enough.

I don't believe the shuttle was necessary here, most of the problems were either under our control, or solutions (IE: ERT ) were easily within reach.

At one point i ran up to the bridge window to ask graves personally to recall the shuttle, and he responded with an emote, something like 'Alex Graves can't hear what you're saying because there's a window between us" which i know is a lie. IIRC he was quite quiet and not explaining his actions until after the shuttle was beyond the point of no return.

Additional remarks:

The problems with this situation:

1. Alex graves was not present for most of the round, and his first action as acting captain was to end it. He had no stake in the round, he just arrived to end it and ruin everyone else's fun for no good reason. He didn't have accurate information about the situation, and as far as i saw didn't make an effort to assess it before passing judgement.

2. Alex Graves had no good reason to take acting captain in the first place, the actual captain was only dead for a very short time, cloning is IC knowledge, he knew uriel would be back, and that uriel wouldn't have called a shuttle in that situation because LordPwner has recently recieved a warning for premature escalation.

3. Graves called the shuttle unnecessarily, and ended the round without attempting to resolve the situation by calling an ERT. One person with a laser is something an ERT team could handle, possibly even handleable without an ERT.

4. Graves pretended he couldn't hear me, didn't respond to a PDA message, and wasn't explaining his actions to the various crew asking for the shuttle to be recalled. It's my opinion that he was just stalling until the shuttle couldn't be recovered

5. Graves ignored the feedback of the crew, most notably LordRaven's character Aramir, who normally serves as a Chief Engineer. His opinion should have been trusted on matters of station integrity, power, and the AI. He said he could handle it. Graves didn't drop in to see how medical was doing, otherwise he'd have found us well stocked, well equipped, and capable of handling anything. We had surplus of every kind of medicine, an odysseus on standby, and two people in voidsuits with a fireaxe, juiced up on hyperzine ready to rush to the aid of anyone who needed it.

6. We were still on code green. A crew transfer vote could have been called, and the matter decided democratically. Instead, he forced the round to end, against the wishes of what i believe was a majority of the players. You don't call an evac on code green, it takes the same amount of time to arrive as a transfer shuttle

Points 1, 3, 4, and 6 are why i believe this is an OOC issue, and thus why i'm contesting the staff decision

Calling the evac was far from the only option here, I see three other choices he could have made:

1. Calling a crew transfer vote instead, to let people decide if they wanted to continue.

2. Calling an ERT to deal with the antags.

3. Gathering up the recently cloned captain, and the recently healed officer, getting equipped with laser-resistant vests, and the three of them assaulting the science outpost together.

I would not be writing this thread if he'd done any of these

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I was my Aramir, My dirty tajaran engineer, I had fixed every single atmospheric,power and structural by myself ( I numerously requested additional access as Alex Graves took over as captain, They instead of communicating with me said absolutely nothing), The AI was carded after I turned off the power to their core, Literally the only problem was the research outpost being held hostage which could easily have been solved by a swift and abrupt blitzkrieg from an ERT. Though I don't agree with the actions of Alex Graves, From a CCIA standpoint, they are loyalty implanted so we have to trust their judgement, Though enforcing loyalty implants is an admin issue not something CCIA Handles, So this complaint was not out of the question.

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I'm pretty sure some of these proposed events may be off since only a few people were actually in-the-know about what was going on, as I was the AI and was constantly in-tune with camera and radio logs and had a really good grasp on the situation despite a METRIC FUCKTON OF LAWS so I'm pretty okay at saying what actually happened. Just to clear up any misconceptions on the situation, as I personally think that was a little more ICky than OOCky since the scenario was pretty hectic and nobody bothered to address the code (I think) alongside the fact that Graves tried to make a decision to benefit the whole of the station as quickly as possible rather than permit them to eat it from any further unprecedented disruptions. I'm pretty sure the antag that was doing my laws also ended up being decked out in armor and an L6 after departure, so it seems like it was a pretty good gut choice if it got past potential threat to crew. An ERT team would easily be too distracted with the most major threat rather than the incognito engie apprentice, and may have passed over the individual with irrelevant hindsight. It just seems really IC. Most of the events make me feel that way, at least, so Loow's claim seems pretty justifiable.

- I had informed both the Captain and Head of Security of the situation with numerous accounts of participating, witnessing crewmembers alongside what I had noticed and intercepted myself. Both were to be informed on the equipment and dealings of the antags that I was actually allowed to state along with their actions. The Captain was more gung-ho than the HoS and went to deal with the matter personally with an ion rifle for their AMI, and it looked like Graves kept himself more preserved on station. Two different personalities and interpretations, but both were to be made aware of the intel we had at the time.

- Alex Graves assumed captaincy in the research shuttle dock due to the lack of any sane or alive Heads of Staff. The captaincy was short lived as the emergency shuttle was hailed, and he was not in possession of a spare ID or with modified access. It seems pretty legit considering this was mostly a security matter, anyway.

- The AI wasn't carded, or shot to death with an emitter. Core was untouched, and I had died of the 'dirty tajaran engineer' randomly cutting power to an AI that wasn't actually able to do anything because of almost seven different conflicting laws creating indifference towards most crew, appreciation of organics and some sort of synth-pride movement that found organics as lesser beings by a more hidden antagonist played by Wer6. His actions to cut power to an AI unit that wasn't hostile nor' inhibitive despite disagreement from interested parties aboard the station makes it pretty rushed on it's own, and doesn't really amount to much in terms of a 'person to be trusted' since some of it was even witnessed by Graves or PDA messaged to him. He was in the dark solely for this matter, and even so only a portion of it. Player characters should also probably never be assumed to be well-known, as they may be important to some or able to be disregarded like any other. Other than 'Do I know you...?' I don't think he had any real reason to care.

- The Captain went off and got himself killed on the asteroid in a softsuit, put into critical injury only to be SLOWLY recovered (And then to die in excavation prep) by a paramedic due to consistent delays that were halfway out of his power, halfway antagonist influence such as a laser-fight where an officer tried to fend off what I assumed to be Fermi from the shuttle dock while they were outside, creating a pretty hazardous environment. Situation was predominantly an EVA matter, nobody really seemed to be in particular danger if they were inside unless you were being a direct problem. The matter of retrieval isn't directly relevant, but it's there anyway.

- Building on the second point, there was still a confirmed and active threat from other individuals that were flying slightly more under the radar than the flamboyant hit & run on the armory by acting captain Evelyn Fermi and their antics on the R&D outpost. This could be noticed with the engine sabotage (which I was made aware of but denied permission of disclosing names by the individual) and rampant explosion of AI laws. Not to mention, one antagonist had recently been captured and with assistance of a turncoat borg, breached the core only to be tased down and arrested shortly after, and were then set free, to my knowledge, for some peculiar reason only to gear in a hardsuit and fuck off indefinitely.

- I don't even think Aramir was even ever promoted to CE, despite the fact he really kinda' sorta' deserved it.

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I have no idea, or rather I forget how people were cued into the AI other than one Borg attacking someone over an hour earlier. I was in Engineering while the engine was being fixed, and found myself in the hallway doused with hot gas and dying, and the AI actually saved my life moments prior to being slain by two atmosphere techs, Aramir was an atmospheric technician this shift. I went to the bar after licking my wounds with a first aid kit and dealt with radiation through an herbal remedy, but then I saw someone decked out in some crazy armor with an L6 saw just walking down thr hallway. We waved at each other and I complimented their gun and they walked away. But there was certainly a large and real threat on station at time.

But here are some other points:

1. The emergency shuttle was called while the engine was being fixed. By the time the atmosphere techs were emittering into the AI core situation, 5 minutes had already passed and the shuttle couldn't be recalled. Nanako and Aramir still kept shouting to recall the shuttle.

2. Graves should have probably called an ERT, it's true. But it wasn't bad roleplay for him to mash the emergency shuttle. His armory had been looted, his fellow heads of staff either dead or heavily equipped and hostile, large engine and AI problems to his knowledge, Arrkady was screaming"I'm Dying!" On comms, chaos. He didn't have much of anything in the way of officers, and so his eyes and ears around the station were also diminished, so from his reserved position(which I laud him for it was nice to have an HoS that didn't charge into combat) he heard a bunch of chaos, and acted according to how he thought he would nest help the situation.

We don't always do we should've done and don't always take the optimal proper path, an ERT should've been called but his Intel on the situation not at all unreasonably made the station seem boned. By the time the issues which cause him to call the shuttle were resolved, it was too late too little past the 5 minute mark anyways, and given the shoddy performance of engineering with thr power situation (one of which was an antag) I wouldn't have trusted their diagnosis either. Not only was there a thirty minute power outage midround from the 40 minute mark to about the 1:10 minute mark, but there was full SM crystal delimation not long before these events. Throughout all of this the engineers were saying they had it, even saying they had the DM crystal under control shortly before it blew, but consistently there were engine problems (probably because of the antag).

And finally, it was a full round. There were two solid hours of things going on. From an OOC standpoint, he may have messed up on IC procedure on multiple points (such as failing to raise to come level, shuttle instead of ERT etc) but he did not deprive anyone of a full round. The complaints about emergency shuttle calls primarily related to how unbelievably early they were happening. The end game was already here on and on the platter when the shuttle was called. Other than chair RP (which if you know me you know I love it) nothing was cut short or ruined by the shuttle call. The antags already were walking armories, security had already been defeated,they were already trying to make their escapes. The only thing that got denied was a few ghosts spawning in to go murderbone antags.

So, considering all this, moderators exist to moderate role-play, and role-play up to and including multiple mistakes on Graves part happened. Everything happened within the confines of roleplay, and so, I think it's wrong to consider it an OOC issue unless you think his head of staff whitelist should be reviewed, which would be a complaint against UM instead of the moderator. This all certainly strikes me as an IC issue.

Edit: apologies for all the typos. After a recent update my dictionary got wiped and so autocorrect is running rampant with incorrect corrections.

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Guest Complete Garbage

If all other heads were incapacitated or rouge, he wouldn't have even been able to call red alert or an ERT.

Just sayin'.

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If all other heads were incapacitated or rouge, he wouldn't have even been able to call red alert or an ERT.

Just sayin'.


Theoretically he could have compiled and written out a situation report or shot an emergency message detailing the condition, and so long as he properly described that all heads of staff except him were out of commission and requested one, an ERT might have been sent depending if admins were on and willing. Typically if there are multiple heads of staff on, I make them swipe for it unless they explicitly tell me and explain they cannot. There also is a notice in our DO notices which says something along the lines of "You called for a shuttle with no reports and aren't on code red, what's up?" But generally I've observed mins won't recall the shuttle in that situation unless it's happening early into a round, which this didn't happen in. So, it's iffy, but he could've theoretically summoned an ERT.

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If all other heads were incapacitated or rouge, he wouldn't have even been able to call red alert or an ERT.

Just sayin'.


The Captain was cloned, The spareID was in the office still, There was a CMO, I am also a fully trained Chief Engineer (Even though after my constant times begging for CE access to fix all the problems easier, I was ignored)

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Guest Complete Garbage
If all other heads were incapacitated or rouge, he wouldn't have even been able to call red alert or an ERT.

Just sayin'.


The Captain was cloned, The spareID was in the office still, There was a CMO, I am also a fully trained Chief Engineer (Even though after my constant times begging for CE access to fix all the problems easier, I was ignored)

Oh, fuck, I think I remember this; I was the CMO.


Nevermind what I said, then.

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  • 3 months later...

This round was cool. I remember seeing quite a bit of RP on the station and then a player ahelped asking to recall the shuttle that had been called IC.

I ruled that Roleplay is Roleplay and decided that the Command member's call was reasonable.

Showing up to find one's workplace in such a sorry state would likely result in many a person choosing to send their people home rather than risk anymore incidents.

Alternatively, Graves could have just been incredibly shocked by what he was being told about the shift's events and deemed this work day a lost cause. Considering the death of the Captain, the hilarious existential quandary of the AI, and the crew-borne unrest [ie: the actions of the antagonists]... I didn't see any issue with letting the Head of Security's In-Character decision stand as he made it.

Graves had more than enough reason to call a shuttle if he saw fit.

He saw fit.

I don't see an OOC issue with the Alex Graves' call. The character saw a crew transfer as the right thing to do.

To sum it up further:

"IC reasoning."

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  • 1 month later...
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