Lore Change: Forensic Tech & Detectives

[Icuris]

Basic Outline

Change lore as to have Forensic Technicians and Detectives require some form of experience with a law enforcement agency or Nanotrason security as an officer.

The warden is considered a specialized security officer. WITHOUT altering the responsibilities of the Detective & Forensic Techs [investigation Division].

The suggestion aims to categorize them as specialized, BUT fully trained and certified officers of Nanotrason Security.

Reasoning

1. Allows Security to lorewise and ICly use Detectives and Forensics outside of their assigned area when the need arises.

2. Enforces an OOC and IC expectancy of Detectives & Forensics level of competency and reliability. Essentially, puts Investigation Division under the same restrictions as officers. They are after all, a part of the Security Department.

3. Grants Detectives and Forensic Techs "expert authority". This is something that is commonly used but I want to see detectives and forensic techs declarations of authority enforced. And that authority is enhanced, much like the Warden's if they are specialized officers, versus some separate entity of security.

Possible Negative Outcomes

1. Forensic Techs and Detectives attempt to function in the role of officers. This can be an IC or OOC issue depending on the circumstance and should be handled accordingly.

2. Security attempts to use Detectives and Forensic Techs to bolster ranks when fighting antagonists.

The common reason behind Detectives and Forensic Techs not participating in situations is lack of training. This suggestion would change that. However, much like the warden, the Detective and Forensic Tech have a role to play on station. Operating outside of that role, regardless of lore changes should have IC or OOC consequences.

Conclusion

The suggestion is that any and all Forensic Technicians and Detectives be; trained and specialized officers, instead of operating as a separate entity of security activities. The best comparison to currently offer in security, is the Warden, who is a specialized officer rank with different authority and restrictions.

The restrictions that detectives and forensic techs will not change but their functional ability and accountability should be enhanced.

In short, when that level 7 biohazard is overwhelming security and engineering...I never want to hear the detective or forensic tech claim helplessness due to lack of training. And I never want to see them unload a lethal weapon into someone because they don't understand that guns kill people.

[Korinra]

As someone who mains a Forensics Tech I feel I have a good platform to comment on this topic. As it stands, Detectives and Forensics Technicians are not officers, which you're proposing they become specialist officers that focus on investigation. It's fine to consider something like this, but as is, I've been constantly yelled at by HoS's and Wardens to "go arrest people" as is. Making them specialist officers simply reinforces the idea that they should be on a beat with a gun and a badge arresting everyone they encounter. From an OOC standpoint, having a non-officer role works well, you have some people who are the robust officers who go out and attack the bad guy, and you have the Detective/Forensics department to FIND the bad guy.

Forensics and Detective work is slow and methodical. You have to find information from relatively nothing. I have a baggy of fibers which links to five people and two cops, because a lot of roles have maintenance access, and I have to figure out which of those people did the bad stuff. So now I have to go interview five people, then write up a report showing conclusively why four of them couldn't be the naughty one. That kind of thing will be CONSTANTLY overlooked if HoS's and Wardens have a foot to stand on in the idea that a Forensics Tech or a Detective is ALSO a cop. How many officers have time to also be a Forensics Technician or a Detective? Answer, none of the good ones will have that kind of time.

From an IC stand point, there's no reason a Detective or Forensics Tech would need to be a cop either. Becoming an officer requires training, while Detectives and Forensics are a science. Detectives are basically psychologists that specialize in finding criminal behavior, and Forensic Technicians are basically scientists that research DNA, Fingerprint analysis, and data theory. This kind of thing requires lots of schooling, which would definitely get in the way of police academy style training. Not everyone in Security has authority or training with the big guns for a reason. Everyone has a role, and if you need more people with big guns, maybe ERT could help. Remember, the game wasn't designed to always be successful, it was designed to give you a chance at success. If you find you're going to fail, and ERT is for some reason also not an option, there's always the emergency shuttle (which also won't always help).

Sorry but I'll have to respectfully give a -1 to this idea.

[Icuris]

As someone who mains a Forensics Tech I feel I have a good platform to comment on this topic. As it stands, Detectives and Forensics Technicians are not officers, which you're proposing they become specialist officers that focus on investigation. It's fine to consider something like this, but as is, I've been constantly yelled at by HoS's and Wardens to "go arrest people" as is. Making them specialist officers simply reinforces the idea that they should be on a beat with a gun and a badge arresting everyone they encounter. From an OOC standpoint, having a non-officer role works well, you have some people who are the robust officers who go out and attack the bad guy, and you have the Detective/Forensics department to FIND the bad guy.

Forensics and Detective work is slow and methodical. You have to find information from relatively nothing. I have a baggy of fibers which links to five people and two cops, because a lot of roles have maintenance access, and I have to figure out which of those people did the bad stuff. So now I have to go interview five people, then write up a report showing conclusively why four of them couldn't be the naughty one. That kind of thing will be CONSTANTLY overlooked if HoS's and Wardens have a foot to stand on in the idea that a Forensics Tech or a Detective is ALSO a cop. How many officers have time to also be a Forensics Technician or a Detective? Answer, none of the good ones will have that kind of time.

From an IC stand point, there's no reason a Detective or Forensics Tech would need to be a cop either. Becoming an officer requires training, while Detectives and Forensics are a science. Detectives are basically psychologists that specialize in finding criminal behavior, and Forensic Technicians are basically scientists that research DNA, Fingerprint analysis, and data theory. This kind of thing requires lots of schooling, which would definitely get in the way of police academy style training. Not everyone in Security has authority or training with the big guns for a reason. Everyone has a role, and if you need more people with big guns, maybe ERT could help. Remember, the game wasn't designed to always be successful, it was designed to give you a chance at success. If you find you're going to fail, and ERT is for some reason also not an option, there's always the emergency shuttle (which also won't always help).

Sorry but I'll have to respectfully give a -1 to this idea.

 

I think there may be some confusion or perhaps I was not clear. The activities that the Forensic tech and detective conduct do not change in any shape or form. The purpose that is implied behind the lore change is to add some sense of accountability in the forensic techs and detectives role, and grant them some greater authority in their activities.

It also results in them being certified in general duties but under no normal circumstance should they be.

A key point to remember with this suggestion is this, there is not a reputable police agency, that would allow their forensic specialist to be hired on straight away. All agencies promote from their ranks and train accordingly or hire from other agencies.

An example of this, is fingerprinting specialist. They are trained cops first, than fingerprint specialist, but you'll never see a fingerprint specialist pull someone over for speeding. It is simply outside of their priorities to do so.

[Korinra]

I'm sorry but that is demonstrably false. Many Detectives in the real world were never cops. Private Investigators have an option to go into Detective work without ever donning a badge/gun and most if not all Forensics Technicians were never cops. Forensics is a degree in college that puts you directly into the field, and Detectives are just PI's with more jurisdiction. So no, in the real world, there are plenty who were never cops. Sure becoming a Detective is EASIER if you've been a cop, so there is the case that SOME Detectives were once cops, but not all, and almost no Forensics Tech were cops, that's just the way it is. A fingerprint specialist is not a cop, my grandmother did that kind of work and she was never a cop. It's an office job with a 9-5 and a few days of training. She didn't even have a gun or a badge, she went to work, did finger print analysis among dozens of other paperwork things, then went home. She was never a cop and in fact hated guns, so I can say with all certainty she had no training with them nor intent to use them in an emergency situation. If a riot broke out, they would barricade their office and escape out the back.

Working in a police station does not make you an officer. In fact, most people who work in a jail specifically (which the brig is) are not nor ever been cops. Here's a list of people who almost NEVER touch weapons as part of their job in a real jail: Janitors, Warden, Head of Security, Finance Analysis, Legal Department, Clerical Staff, Medical Staff, Groundskeepers, Forensics, IA, Door/Camera specialists. Sorry but more than half of a jail is run on paperwork, and not by cops. Now comparing Sec team on SS13 to real police doesn't even really work, as it functions more like a sea vessel (even adopting the idea that it's a brig, not a jail). In a real brig, there is no warden, no weapons armory, and no Detective/Forensics. They arrest on the authority of the military and do so to prevent risk, not because someone is proven guilty. There is nothing really perfect to compare SS13 to, but if you're trying to stand the point that Detectives/Forensics are/were cops in the real world, I'm sorry but that is patently not how it really works.

[Guest Marlon Phoenix]

Detective:

Qualifications: At least 25 years of age, applicable Criminal Forensics degree or 7 years experience in Criminal Forensics/Investigation.

Security Officer:

Qualifications: Completed 4 week Security cadet-ship and passed the written exam, or 2+ years experience in security or law-enforcement related position(s).

Security Officer and Detective are two separate jobs because of their separate requirements. It would be of little consequence to add cadetship requirement, but I am very very leery about letting officers get their grubby hands all over the CSI equipment.

Security officers play the role because they want to enforce the regulations. Detective is a job slot you choose specifically because you want to investigate. The mindset tends to be a little different IC and OOC.

Detectives and FT's also do not and should not have the power to arrest and detain. All the problems you cited can already be solved by IC means. If security is shutting a detective out because they're "not part of security as officers" then clearly that is a Captain, CCIA, or admin issue.

[Icuris]

A completed cadetship addition to requirements fits the bill perfectly as of what I'm trying to actually suggest.

[Korinra]

This is still not going to change that a Detective/FC is not going to OOCly want to be the guy with a big gun 90% of the time. They can EASILY find an IC excuse, "My heavy weapons licence expired", "I have a history of misfire on my records and am not allowed to hold that kind of weapon". The reason someone picks a non-combat role is usually because shockingly enough, they don't want to get involved with combat unless it's to defend themselves. If the requirement changes to force all FTs and Detectives to have a cadet status, I'm putting a side-note on my Employment records that my heavy weapons licence expired, and then nothing but the reason is going to change. This is a moot suggestion, as it will literally change nothing. Also spoiler, a cadet is probably only "trained" to use standard equipment. I'm guessing someone doesn't need to know how to use energy rifles to complete their cadet training, so it could also be argued that having completed that cadet training didn't include heavy weapons. "I completed my cadet training about ten years ago, we didn't even have access to those guns."

When making a suggestion like this, you have to consider a few things:

1) How does this make the game more/less fun for the non-Detective/FT roles?

2) How does this make the game more/less fun for the Detective/FT roles?

3) How does this fit into the lore?

Sure 3 is easy to argue, but really, changing a requirement on a role to include cadet-level combat training isn't about to change if they OOCly will or won't use armory weapons. Hell I could easily come up with 10 reasons that fit in just fine and don't break anything for a Detective/FT to refuse this;

PTSD, Security restriction in Employment records, Expired HW licence, Only trained in basic weapons, Registered pacifist, bound to wheelchair, missing a limb, redacted employment/security/medical file with an instruction that the Detective/FT is not to use any weapon more potent than a side-arm .357 or taser, mechanical organs that react poorly to that much stress, would sooner quit the Security force than deal with something his/her job shouldn't deal with.

So go ahead and make this change if you feel you must, just keep in mind that unless you change the lore to require a Detective/FT to use heavy weapons, they won't use heavy weapons unless they want to. And if you do change the lore to require it, there will be people who just pick a different role.

[Nanako]

detectives should definitely have security experience. They're trusted with armor, a gun, cuffs, and flash. Theres no question there. Most real world detectives are promoted from normal cops.

Forensic techs though, definitely not imo. They're often scientists who simply work for law enforcement, there's no reason they should have ever worked on the beat. Not saying they can't be former police, but that shouldn't be an assumption or a requirement, theres no reason they can't be civilians with no combat training.

[Scheveningen]

Detectives and FT's also do not and should not have the power to arrest and detain. All the problems you cited can already be solved by IC means. If security is shutting a detective out because they're "not part of security as officers" then clearly that is a Captain, CCIA, or admin issue.

 

Boring af to shoehorn them into being forensic lab monkeys. If you have no physical role in detaining people that commit crimes as a completely boring adaptation of a criminal detective then it really just rounds down their function to only interrogating (which security officers or the warden have the right to do anyway) or pretending their forensic work means anything. Assuming forensics ever happens depending on the game mode type.

Giving them a badge and ability to detain permits them to work their own security cases that officers don't have the tools to reliably investigate. Reminder that officers are paid less than criminal investigators for a reason, they're mostly just brute force and extra manpower to suppress threats to the workplace at large. They're an assortment of humanoid tools that can be used to solve non-complex problems without needing the head of security or the investigator's absolute focus.

Limiting each function in a department to what they can and can't do ends up crippling departments in terms of functionality. Having a maximum of 7-8 people who can deal with any assortment of cases at once is absolutely amazing and the times that I had issues with detectives abusing their arrest authority; they were shit detectives and shit security as a whole anyway. Detectives who do know how to do their job and maximize their efficiency output as an investigator will benefit the department more than make it look bad. Besides, I'm sure officers would like less work load during greytide hours, and it's not the place of officers to bugger about regarding break-ins and more complex crimes where you can't point whodunit the moment it's reported.

Forensic techs probably wouldn't have authority to arrest anyone for anything but detectives certainly require that authority as it is part of their theme as a space station noir detective.

[Icuris]

Alright, been working for the past few days.

To address some points,

I like Jackboots compromise of suggesting that Forensic Tech/Detectives have completed Nanotrason Security Cadet training. The main point was to have a minor change that links the Investigation side closer to security.

The main point isn't to drastically change the general duties of the Forensic Tech or Detective. In fact, there should be no in game changes to the activities of the detective and forensic tech other than them having a further comprehension of the security department.

While I am in full agreement with Delta on how the detective aught to operate, the purpose of the lore change is simply to establish a foundation to future changes.

[Guest Marlon Phoenix]

https://aurorastation.org/wiki/index.php?title=Detective

The deed is done.

[Skull132]

Marked as complete.