[Resolved] Warning Appeal

[Brutishcrab51]

BYOND Key: Brutishcrab51.

Staff BYOND Key: TheDocOct.

Game ID: I don't have the Game ID for the exact round, but I do for the one after. bRx-aXNv.

Reason for complaint: Now, to start off, I have nothing against TheDocOct. The round in question for this appeal was a Cult round. I joined on at round-start as my character, Kalren Halstere, for his final lap around before he left Tau Ceti. He had breakfast with the Head of Personnel, a social call with the Head of Security, made some orders with the kitchen, overall, it was pretty pleasant. Two Security Officers (Cherish, Viridian) call for people to join their 'Cool Kids Club'. Halstere offers to walk with Shoshanna, the HoP, who takes a look, and after, they're guided up to the IA office to see the 'Clubhouse'.

Now, here's where things get a bit unusual. They tell Halstere that, as he's a member of the 'Sol Fleet Club', he can't see the club. They start talking about how they want to take people in one at a time, to see the clubhouse and get initiated. Shoshanna drags Halstere aside and hands him her ID, and asks him to follow her after they walk her in. So, he does. He finds the room they're in, opens a maintenance door in the dark, sneaks in behind them, and watches from across a table as they go through dances, an oath, and then finally, the rune.

Shoshanna steps on, screams, runs off. Halstere steps out of the shadows, and confronts Cherish on what he could only guess to be some sort of group hazing. Nothing amazingly malicious, he thought he must've missed some sort of action. After, he walks out, and informs the HoS of what happened, returns the ID to the HoP, and learns that Viridian/Cherish are both 'rogue' from the HoS.

After all that, the HoP issued him basic access to departments while Cherish was being EMP'd to death, having gone for full Cult armor and sword, and tried to kill him. He asked that Viridian be spared of charges, and then returned to the scene of the crime, the 'clubhouse', to investigate it for anything he missed. While there, a man wandered up, asked him to let him in, and then attacked him with a sword. Halstere, armed with a taser and .45, ran away and called for help. Because, you know, he got cut across the skull with a sword.

After all that, and after being treated, he was given ammunition for his .45 by the HoS and had to assist said HoS and an Officer in subduing a man in the Brig who broke the door with a sword, and who was in full armor. Halstere obliged, aimed for the legs, and helped take the man down. After, he left the Brig to check on the HoP at Cargo, spoke with her and a Cargo Technician for a time, and returned to the hallway after reports of a second armed man. He saw no Security personnel, asked about it, then saw a bloodied HoS running for Engineering, and followed.

What came after was what I can only describe as an orgy of violence, as the HoS and an Officer kicked in the doors of the Engineering Foyer armed with shotguns loaded with slugs, and went to town on the Cultist. Halstere came in with his pistol, aimed, took four shots (Though, only due to the snap-shots of aiming with the command. I adjusted that after the fact, but it was far too late), and after the cultist went down, he attempted to pin the man down for proper detainment. Whereas, a Officer proceeded to blast the man at point blank with a shotgun while he was in paincrit, killing him instantly.

After the fact, I was bwoinked by TheDocOct. Long story short as I haven't saved the logs, I was promptly informed that I had needlessly put my character's life in danger against an element that could kill me nearly instantly, and had no place being in Engineering. A lot of our discussion rested on the fact that Halstere was a Visitor, on how he got a pistol, on his experience with the Cult (It's worth noting that Halstere as informed by the AI that members of the Cult were targeting him in specific, and he'd been attacked twice), and how he should've been more hesitant to get into a situation with an armed man. I can't necessarily disagree with this sentiment, at least, not entirely. But this is what I will say.

Why would a trained Military Police Commissioned Officer, who was previously an HoS main, with a loaded handgun (loaded with lethals, mind you) be afraid of what he could only see to be a loony with a sword? Cautious, yes, sure. Weary? Of course, would it have been wise for Halstere to avoid the situation entirely? Maybe, but it was made personal to some extent when he was informed they were targeting him in specific. He had a vested reason to see to their downfall and demise, but he never killed any of them. Halstere was fearful when appropriate (Ergo, fleeing when a Cultist with a sword assaulted him in Maintenance. Even armed with a taser and loaded handgun, and stun baton, he absolutely was not going to try to fight), but in this situation, the odds were too much in his favor.

If he knew about the Cult and what its power was? He'd certainly be more careful. But, I play a character, and death for him because of his actions is certainly an acceptable outcome from RP. Personally, I think the warning was unwarranted, and I can't quite exactly word anyways, I'm not sure if you can check warnings.

Evidence/logs/etc: Unfortunately, I took no screenshots, and didn't save any logs. I'm sure they could be dragged up, but, the long-short summary is above.

Additional remarks: I'd like to have a dialogue with TheDocOct about this warning. Especially given how heated I was at the time, seeing the warning as utterly unfounded, this'd probaby be the easiest way to go about it. Regardless of the outcome, the prior round was the last one for Halstere for quite a while, until the IC situation by Jackboot and Zundy is continued regarding Mars.

Also, I was extremely amused watching an Unathi shatter both a Claymore and then a Fire Axe on the dead Cultist's head trying to cut it off while having the Bwoink chat with DocOct. It was great.

[Faris]

The conversation between Doc and Brutish. Inform me if you feel anything was missing from the conversation posted here. I'll give the log file another dive.

 

[04:43:21] bRx-arYC ADMIN: PM: TheDocOct/(Sea)->Brutishcrab51/(Kalren Halstere): Can I ask why you're in the middle of a security shootout with a cult-member wielding a cursed blade while security fires slugs at them, as an unarmed visitor in dress uniform?

[04:43:36] bRx-arYC ADMIN: PM: Brutishcrab51/(Kalren Halstere)->TheDocOct/(Sea): I am armed, I have a .45. Plus, I was off to the side.

[04:43:58] bRx-arYC ADMIN: PM: TheDocOct/(Sea)->Brutishcrab51/(Kalren Halstere): Well, you were not off to the side, you were actually physically grappling him. And why do you have a .45, then?

[04:44:00] bRx-arYC ADMIN: PM: Brutishcrab51/(Kalren Halstere)->TheDocOct/(Sea): HoS armed me up with a .45 with lethals after a Cultist tried to saw my character's head off.

[04:44:10] bRx-arYC ADMIN: PM: TheDocOct/(Sea)->Brutishcrab51/(Kalren Halstere): Why are you involved with security at all?

[04:44:46] bRx-arYC ADMIN: PM: Brutishcrab51/(Kalren Halstere)->TheDocOct/(Sea): Yeah, grappling after the guy came down. My character was critically assaulted by Cultists, and helped protect a member of Command (Shoshanna) while quietly observing the 'club' try to convert her.

[04:45:05] bRx-arYC ADMIN: PM: TheDocOct/(Sea)->Brutishcrab51/(Kalren Halstere): And... why are you doing this as a visitor, in military dress uniform?

[04:45:54] bRx-arYC ADMIN: PM: Brutishcrab51/(Kalren Halstere)->TheDocOct/(Sea): Because the man was running around cutting people up with a sword, Halstere was informed on the kind of individual he was - having been attacked by two identical Cultists in the past, and being informed by the AI that they were targeting him -- and had a pistol. Why wouldn't I be involved? I'm not the one who killed the guy.

[04:47:04] bRx-arYC ADMIN: PM: TheDocOct/(Sea)->Brutishcrab51/(Kalren Halstere): Because you're not a member of security, and there were three actual members of security. You tagging along with them is really just looking like validhunting because you encountered them earlier in the round, unless you're saying you got some sort of thirst for their blood because of that?

[04:48:56] bRx-arYC ADMIN: PM: Brutishcrab51/(Kalren Halstere)->TheDocOct/(Sea): My character also happened to be in the area. No, of course not, I was inclined to assist Security in trying to non-lethally subdue a man with a sword, except an Officer blasted him while he was down, saying "I'm not one for compassion.". Why would Halstere, a visiting active-duty Officer with a sidearm, be at all not inclined to assist in subduing a man armed with a sword when identical individuals had both attacked him and others he considered friends (Shoshanna), and just keep off? The two shots I fired were snap-shots from the 'Aim' command, I wasn't trying to horizontal the guy.

[04:49:19] bRx-arYC ADMIN: PM: Brutishcrab51/(Kalren Halstere)->TheDocOct/(Sea): And, the HoS armed Halstere with the pistol, expecting his assistance.

[04:49:59] bRx-arYC ADMIN: PM: TheDocOct/(Sea)->Brutishcrab51/(Kalren Halstere): Because you're in a dress uniform, and if you were going for something non-lethal, you had 0 equipment, while there were 3 other officers who both actually had equipment and had any form of armor. I still fail to see why you were with them.

[04:51:48] bRx-arYC ADMIN: PM: Brutishcrab51/(Kalren Halstere)->TheDocOct/(Sea): The third Officer came after. The first was Rolande and the HoS, Mccullough, with shotguns. They went straight to horizontal the guy, Halstere went for the aiming. Why should my character refrain from assisting Officers in subduing the guy? Because he's a Visitor? People act in a hero-like manner all the time. Ignoring the Officer who literally blasted the Cultist while he was on the ground, and the Unathi who tried to cut the Cultist's head off after the fight was over.

[04:52:13] bRx-arYC ADMIN: PM: Brutishcrab51/(Kalren Halstere)->TheDocOct/(Sea): Halstere's an ex-Head of Security himself, and an active-duty Military Police Officer from Sol.

[04:54:33] bRx-arYC ADMIN: PM: TheDocOct/(Sea)->Brutishcrab51/(Kalren Halstere): Because you're in dress uniform and only have a pistol whereas the other officers had full armor and shotguns. You are saying, "why wouldn't I?" and I am telling you, and you are not really understanding. You did not have the equipment to deal with this, and decided to put yourself in the situation anyway for no reason that you have given me besides "I used to be a HoS," which is not really a reason at all when you are a uniformed liason on station for political reasons.

[04:56:22] bRx-arYC ADMIN: PM: Brutishcrab51/(Kalren Halstere)->TheDocOct/(Sea): Against a man with a -sword-. It'd be different if he had any range of sidearm, but his having a sword negated any level of danger for Halstere. Someone with a syringe gun could've easily disabled him. And, to add on, Halstere got involved when shots started to fly. He didn't get close, because that'd be suicidal. And, Halstere's not onboard to liase. What gave you that idea?

[04:59:05] bRx-arYC ADMIN: PM: TheDocOct/(Sea)->Brutishcrab51/(Kalren Halstere): Because that's what you've been doing every other time you've been on as that character that I've seen. Also, your job is literally 'Solarian Officer,' so. Also, you've already said that Halstere has been physically attacked by these people before, and that they were targeting you. Them having a sword doesn't really change anything- it actually makes it a little worse becuase, again, you are only in a dress uniform. One good slice could have theoretically killed you instantly. Other officers being present doesn't change that when they are all running around the room and there is no control of the stituation.

[05:02:03] bRx-arYC ADMIN: PM: Brutishcrab51/(Kalren Halstere)->TheDocOct/(Lily Kadel): Control in a situation? Halstere had a loaded sidearm with lethal bullets. To a man without knowledge in the dark arts of Nar'Sie, a ranged weapon will -always- defeat a sword. Should I add that Halstere informed Security he didn't wish to press charges against cultists such as Viridian, and wasn't even responsible for the death of Cherish? That man would be the first individual aside from a fellow in a literal cell that Halstere's fired on, and it was in an aim for the legs. What is your point? That Halstere was willing to do something with the sidearm he was issued, the training and skills to use it, and the mindset to help and assist other Security Officers, including the Head of Security, who he met over their joint service in Sol?

[05:03:04] bRx-arYC ADMIN: PM: Brutishcrab51/(Kalren Halstere)->TheDocOct/(Lily Kadel): You seem to think I was out there to valid-hunt, which just isn't the case. Yeah, Halstere showed up when the man's location was broadcasted on the radio. I tried to subdue him non-lethally once he went down by pinning him, Officers killed him. Do you honestly think a soldier with a loaded gun would be afraid of a man in a robe, no training (that he knows of), no mindset to kill (that he knows of), and no outside assistance (Circa Cult, that he knows of)?

[05:05:21] bRx-arYC ADMIN: PM: Brutishcrab51/(Kalren Halstere)->TheDocOct/(Lily Kadel): And what do you mean, 'every other time'? Most times, Halstere sits in the Bar and drinks. The only time I think you can bring up, would be -last round-, when the Head of Security - a man that Halstere considered a brother, and vice versa, was attacked. Halstere was a Loyalist, and guided Security to the nuke using a pinpointer. This round, he was given a sidearm by an HoS, and access by an emotional HoP.

[05:05:47] bRx-arYC ADMIN: PM: TheDocOct/(Lily Kadel)->Brutishcrab51/(Kalren Halstere): The point is that you were not needed and put yourself in danger needlessly because you "used to be a HoS". At any point he could have ran over and hit you within seconds and you would not have been able to drop him in time to prevent it, and you would also have known that by your training, yet entered the scene anyway. For some reason you are severely downplaying the threat you put yourself in regarding the situation. There was nothing preventing him from outright killing you at any moment except the fact that he just chose not to target you, and you did not have the equipment to defend yourself against that. You put yourself in that position anyway, and haven't given a reasonable explanation as to why.

[05:10:33] bRx-arYC ADMIN: PM: TheDocOct/(Lily Kadel)->Brutishcrab51/(Kalren Halstere): A real, standard sword, no cult involved, could slash someone's chest open in one hit if they were unarmored with a good enough hit, and at any moment they could have run over and done exactly that to Halstere. A clearly maddened person like that would not have been dropped by the time they had already killed you by a pistol, and would have known that. I don't understand where you're getting "a sword isn't dangerous from" because it absolutely is when you're wearing nothing but regular clothes.

[05:13:28] bRx-arYC ADMIN: PM: TheDocOct/(Lily Kadel)->Brutishcrab51/(Kalren Halstere): I'm going to be giving you a warning for unrealisitic roleplaying. Please remember that when you have no equipment that could take out a threat before they could have killed you twice over, you should not be persuing that threat, even if you "used to be a HoS" and had seen them in the past. That just doesn't change anything, especially when there are two, then moments later three, other security personnel who were all far more capable of dealing with the situation than you were.

[05:13:30] bRx-arYC ADMIN: PM: Brutishcrab51/(Kalren Halstere)->TheDocOct/(Lily Kadel): It is, but not to someone with a loaded gun. Someone without armor would be in paincrit in the amount of time it would've taken that guy to get from where he was to Halstere, and Halstere had no reason to assume the guy was anything but normal, in terms of attire. Halstere was quite confident in his ability to move regardless, and was quite sure the man would surrender. He was the last to enter the room, after two Security members (An Officer, and an HoS) blasted the man with shotguns. He saw no reason to think the guy would get up and sprint at him with a sword, but he was well aware that the man was still a danger, just not to anyone careful. Forgetting that he was enabled to assist, as well. Someone with a sword is never going to kill someone with a pistol, running across a room.

[05:13:47] bRx-arYC ADMIN: PM: Brutishcrab51/(Kalren Halstere)->TheDocOct/(Lily Kadel): I'm going to appeal the warning, if you see fit to issue it. It's absurd.

[05:13:52] bRx-arYC ADMIN: PM: TheDocOct/(Lily Kadel)->Brutishcrab51/(Kalren Halstere): A .45 pistol is not an magic instant kill gun. It's a handgun, versus someone that has already been demsontrated to be insane.

[05:14:27] bRx-arYC ADMIN: PM: Brutishcrab51/(Kalren Halstere)->TheDocOct/(Lily Kadel): Versus a very fleshy man with what Halstere saw as no armor. People go down to far less. And, "used to be an HOS". Yeah, Halstere was an HoS main, until the IC situation on Mars.

[05:14:42] bRx-arYC ADMIN: PM: Brutishcrab51/(Kalren Halstere)->TheDocOct/(Lily Kadel): A .45 is definitely seen as more dangerous than a sword. Which you don't understand.

 

 

The warning itself.

 

20606 2017-11-20 05:17:32 thedococt Warning added by thedococt, for: Persued and assisted with taking down a deranged cultist with a heavy sword as a visitor in dress uniform with a .45 pistol, despite 3 other armed and armored security officers being available to deal with the issue. You should not be trying to take care of a threat that could kill you in one hit and has shown to be willing to do so with barely any equipment when there are actual security present to take care of it, regardless of your history.

[Brutishcrab51]

Looks about right. I imagine DocOct is probably asleep right now, I'll await his input tomorrow. I'd prefer just having a dialogue on this, to be fair. If him and I could speak on Discord, that'd work as well.

[Faris]

Looks about right. I imagine DocOct is probably asleep right now, I'll await his input tomorrow. I'd prefer just having a dialogue on this, to be fair. If him and I could speak on Discord, that'd work as well.

 

That's perfectly acceptable. Staff complaints aren't the only method of resolving issues. It's for when the staff member has their stance and it conflicts with yours.

[Resilynn]

I know it's really not my place to comment on any of this, but just in case:

I play Shoshanna, so I was involved in a lot of the action here. And by the time Halstere had that gun, he had been pretty involved in the whole thing. I'm usually the first to get annoyed by powergaming and valid hunting, but this felt pretty justified by then. I mean, he'd been attacked several times by that point. We'd seen several people, officers that he knew (being an HoS when working). Idunno, it felt justified by that point, which is why I ended up giving him very basic access: there were people running around maintence with swords openly declaring they wanted to kill him.

[Doc]

Apologies, I did have to go to sleep a bit after this round, and so I couldn't reply at the time.

 

Two Security Officers (Cherish, Viridian) call for people to join their 'Cool Kids Club'. Halstere offers to walk with Shoshanna, the HoP, who takes a look, and after, they're guided up to the IA office to see the 'Clubhouse'.

Now, here's where things get a bit unusual. They tell Halstere that, as he's a member of the 'Sol Fleet Club', he can't see the club. They start talking about how they want to take people in one at a time, to see the clubhouse and get initiated. Shoshanna drags Halstere aside and hands him her ID, and asks him to follow her after they walk her in. So, he does. He finds the room they're in, opens a maintenance door in the dark, sneaks in behind them, and watches from across a table as they go through dances, an oath, and then finally, the rune.

Shoshanna steps on, screams, runs off. Halstere steps out of the shadows, and confronts Cherish on what he could only guess to be some sort of group hazing. Nothing amazingly malicious, he thought he must've missed some sort of action. After, he walks out, and informs the HoS of what happened, returns the ID to the HoP, and learns that Viridian/Cherish are both 'rogue' from the HoS.

After all that, the HoP issued him basic access to departments while Cherish was being EMP'd to death, having gone for full Cult armor and sword, and tried to kill him. He asked that Viridian be spared of charges, and then returned to the scene of the crime, the 'clubhouse', to investigate it for anything he missed. While there, a man wandered up, asked him to let him in, and then attacked him with a sword. Halstere, armed with a taser and .45, ran away and called for help. Because, you know, he got cut across the skull with a sword.

After all that, and after being treated, he was given ammunition for his .45 by the HoS and had to assist said HoS and an Officer in subduing a man in the Brig who broke the door with a sword, and who was in full armor. Halstere obliged, aimed for the legs, and helped take the man down. After, he left the Brig to check on the HoP at Cargo, spoke with her and a Cargo Technician for a time[.]

 

To begin with, I'm not entirely sure why he, as a visitor, was conducting a crime scene investigation in lieu of actual security forces, when they were present to do so themselves. This is also considering that at this point it was nowhere near an 'emergency situation' that warranted the recruitment of non-crew to do so given that one of the hostiles was already down and the other on the lam. If he was not conducting an actual in-depth investigation, then it is fine, though given his training you should probably know better than to be poking around an active crime-scene that might have actually been investigated. This was not involved in the ahelp at the time, but doesn't particularly help the case. As for the rest of it, given the circumstances that is all acceptable, if a stretch to be needing to assist the armed and armored HoS and armed and armored officer take down a suspect, though they were attempting to advance on you in this instance.

 

[He] returned to the hallway after reports of a second armed man. He saw no Security personnel, asked about it, then saw a bloodied HoS running for Engineering, and followed.

What came after was what I can only describe as an orgy of violence, as the HoS and an Officer kicked in the doors of the Engineering Foyer armed with shotguns loaded with slugs, and went to town on the Cultist. Halstere came in with his pistol, aimed, took four shots (Though, only due to the snap-shots of aiming with the command. I adjusted that after the fact, but it was far too late), and after the cultist went down, he attempted to pin the man down for proper detainment. Whereas, a Officer proceeded to blast the man at point blank with a shotgun while he was in paincrit, killing him instantly.

 

You've really just detailed exactly why you received the warning, so lets talk about the reasoning behind it and the reasoning behind your explanation.

 

Why would a trained Military Police Commissioned Officer, who was previously an HoS main, with a loaded handgun (loaded with lethals, mind you) be afraid of what he could only see to be a loony with a sword?

 

You seem to be implying that Halstere had no reason to be concerned because he could have taken care of the threat at any moment, and I just don't see the reasoning behind that. There was a man running around the engineering foyer, leading the two other officers in circles, while you were off to one side of the room. He was wielding a heavy sword that, given your lack of armor, could have mortally or at least severely wounded you in one swipe, and he could have run toward you at any time and you would not have had the sufficient time to drop him before he could easily have killed you. As you already said earlier, the other security officers were already firing on him with shotgun rounds, and he was still running about. I don't see how your .45, lethals included, would have given you a ton more confidence after that.

 

Cautious, yes, sure. Weary? Of course, would it have been wise for Halstere to avoid the situation entirely? Maybe, but it was made personal to some extent when he was informed they were targeting him in specific. He had a vested reason to see to their downfall and demise, but he never killed any of them.

 

I didn't and still don't see the reasoning behind this, unless Halstere simply has no self-preservation. Knowing that these people have expressly targeted you with the intent to kill should not have increased your desire to put yourself in closer contact with them, much less getting in the middle of an open fight with them. Given this I would imagine most rational people would want to avoid putting themselves near the group that wants to and has attempted to execute them.

 

Halstere was fearful when appropriate (Ergo, fleeing when a Cultist with a sword assaulted him in Maintenance. Even armed with a taser and loaded handgun, and stun baton, he absolutely was not going to try to fight), but in this situation, the odds were too much in his favor.

 

If the odds were tilted in security's favor to begin with, what good was Halstere doing there? If security was capable of handling the situation themselves, then it becomes an issue of you putting yourself in needless danger just to get a chance at taking down the antag (because, again, you were not a member of security at the time, and were just a visitor who had been given a gun, whereas there were two other actual members of security present to take care of the situation), which seems to have been exactly what happened when you moved up to restrain him while he was down before the officer killed him.

 

If he knew about the Cult and what its power was? He'd certainly be more careful. But, I play a character, and death for him because of his actions is certainly an acceptable outcome from RP.

 

Well, it's good that you're prepared for that eventuality, but you being okay if you die doesn't really change the fact that it's against our rules regarding realistic characters to purposefully put yourself in dangerous situations like that. Regarding the blade being cult: all of this reasoning still applies to a madman with a regular old broadsword. You seem to downplay the threat of a heavy, sharpened sword wielded by a madman that is still running around after being shot with slugs a little more than you should.

[Faris]

Have you spoken to them? [mention]Brutishcrab51[/mention]

[Brutishcrab51]

Have you spoken to them? @Brutishcrab51

 

Unfortunately, not for long. Our conversation on Discord was rather short. Regardless, I think I'll ask for this to be archived, I can see why a warning might be valid - much as I still disagree with it from a personal standpoint.

[Faris]

Locking and archiving per request.