Security SOP/Law change

[the_furry]

So I’m pulling this suggestion from a post I made on the general forums and some people seem to agree. That suggestion is to change the law to encourage cooperation while being arrested. I’m making this suggestion because I hear a lot of people complain about how everyone hates security.

If we make a tweak to the time we get off for being arrested willingly that would make people like security a lot more, and like wise security like people a lot more. My suggestion is reducing the time by 75% instead of only 25% if you go cooperatively for first time nonviolent/minor assault crimes (simple fist fights/drugs/contraband/what have you). Second time offenders can have it reduced by 50% or 25% and third time and thereafter should suffer the full time. I remember one time when I was arrested and I went quietly I had my sentence reduced because of it. That is nice however it was very unsatisfying because the reduction was only by like 2.5 mins (25% of the sentence). In fact it had such a little impact I think it took more time to rp the situation of being booked willingly then it would have taken if I resisted. I understand it is being more lenient (which is a common complaint by officers that it will not work) but it will work despite it being leniency. This because the officers are not being lenient on making the arrest. It’s being lenient during the sentencing. This is an important distinction. As many of you have said letting people “off the hook” does encourage them to simply go back and continue committing crimes if they experience no punishment. At the same time, making an arrest and only having 25% of the sentence reduced for good behavior is hardly satisfying and thus not a good motivator for being cooperative. The thought is If only a few minutes will be reduced why not attempt to fight and cause trouble, the worse that will happen is you have a few more mins added to your sentence.

However by making an arrest it places a punishment factor on the player to cease taking whatever actions they are taking. But by informing the player that 75% of the sentence can be removed (a huge amount) if they come quietly actually encourages cooperation and even thankfulness (players will be grateful to sec for offering to reduce most of the time)and it will be worth it not to resist for the fun of it. Furthermore with an understanding that if the crime is committed again the reduction cannot be used again that will encourage most players to cease criminal activities (you will always have that one that blows up the station anyway). This is actually a criminal model that many police forces currently use to reduce crime and is backed by psychological evidence (my psych degree speaking). It uses motivational and punishment/reward models that we know work effectively. Making this simple change would have an impact on the way sec is treated.

*edit add*

I would like to expand this by adding one more safe guard. I think it should be included that in order to receive the 75% off of your sentence you must also accept a tracking implant so that you may be monitored and may be found if anything else goes wrong. That way it will further reduce the likeliness that the person will go back to committing crimes.

(and susan if you accidentally delete this again I will turn you into a furry)

Edited January 17, 2015 by Guest

[Susan]

I MESSED UP AND ACCIDENTALLY CHANGED THE OP TO MY POST

GR8

 

No.

Cooperating with security shouldn't constitute a major reward. You should be doing it in almost every situation.

If you can't do the time, don't do the crime.

[SgtSammac]

GG Sue.

Also the reward for compliance, stated in the Current Corp Regs isn't for if you don't resist, its for if you send yourself to the brig without being told to, or without the need for security to be dispatched to you. Not sure why anyone would do that (Depends on the crime, for some things sure, most common ones though nah.) but yea it happens, I've seen it happen.

[Guest]

you had one fucking job, Sue. ONE JOB.

Anyway, while there is a -25% off total brig time for cooperating with security, by no means is this guaranteed. If you are a direct accessory to a crime, expect to be treated like a criminal. Leniency is not to be shown except for extremely specific cases.

[Guest Marlon Phoenix]

Sue you are literally,literally Hitler.

I read the OP before; I approve of it, but it should only apply to 'minor' crimes.

[the_furry]

-.- so all the work I just put in that post went out the window

[the_furry]

you had one fucking job, Sue. ONE JOB.

Anyway, while there is a -25% off total brig time for cooperating with security, by no means is this guaranteed. If you are a direct accessory to a crime, expect to be treated like a criminal. Leniency is not to be shown except for extremely specific cases.

my main argument was that 25% is not enough to motivate players to go cooperatively. Especially considering the time it takes to rp cooperation takes more time then the 25% would have taken off

[the_furry]

I MESSED UP AND ACCIDENTALLY CHANGED THE OP TO MY POST

GR8

 

No.

Cooperating with security shouldn't constitute a major reward. You should be doing it in almost every situation.

If you can't do the time, don't do the crime.

oh yeah one last last thing. susan that train of thought is great and all if you want people to keep hating/fighting security. what you 'think' people should or shouldn't do doesn't really help the situation. we know people behave according to rewards and punishments and thus should fashion a system that uses that knowledge to its advantage to gain a result we want (such as friendly outlook towards security and improved cooperation). what you think people should do has nothing to do with what people will actually do, and if we want to improve results we should look at what people actually do and set up a system that encourages behavior we desire based off of that.

If you disagree then I don't want to hear you complain that people hate security and treat it badly because the thought process you utilize invites exactly that.

[TishinaStalker]

Just saying... Sue is like Caligula with her motto "Let them hate us, so long as they fear us." I'm pretty sure everybody is scared of being hunted by Ana Issek, so Sue doesn't really care about what everyone else thinks.

[Guest]

You really can't expect a security force in real life to go easy on you after you were accused of espionage and have insurmountable evidence piled against you.

Why should this be any different?

[the_furry]

You really can't expect a security force in real life to go easy on you after you were accused of espionage and have insurmountable evidence piled against you.

Why should this be any different?

bleh ok I need to remake my original post, of course I don't expect that 1138. In the original post I specified that the rule change should only apply to nonviolent crimes or light assault such as bar/fist fights.

[Susan]

oh yeah one last last thing. susan that train of thought is great and all if you want people to keep hating/fighting security.

 

Those people are childish babies and they need the full punishment given to them. Being in the brig is punishment, it is not a joyride, or a fun time, or anything of the sort. You broke the law and now you need to serve your sentence. What people fail to realize is it's not security's fucking fault they were a complete idiot and broke the law, then got caught. Complying gives you 25% off, and that is only if you turn yourself in instead of making us come look for you. 25% is more than enough.

Let me explain something to you. Fistfighting is a violent crime. Fighting is assault. Drug charges vary in severity but more often than not the common charges on station are possession of a controlled substance (which can vary from a misdemeanor to a felony) and possession of a controlled substance with intent to distribute which can carry prison terms up to twelve years. People should not be getting off easy for this stuff.

I'd rather upgrade sentencing on crimes that can be felonies because realistically speaking you would be handed over to the police and then tried and convicted for serious crimes. People need to realize their illegal doings have profound impacts on their freedom as well as the outside world.

[the_furry]

oh yeah one last last thing. susan that train of thought is great and all if you want people to keep hating/fighting security.

 

Those people are childish babies and they need the full punishment given to them. Being in the brig is punishment, it is not a joyride, or a fun time, or anything of the sort. You broke the law and now you need to serve your sentence. What people fail to realize is it's not security's fucking fault they were a complete idiot and broke the law, then got caught. Complying gives you 25% off, and that is only if you turn yourself in instead of making us come look for you. 25% is more than enough.

Let me explain something to you. Fistfighting is a violent crime. Fighting is assault. Drug charges vary in severity but more often than not the common charges on station are possession of a controlled substance (which can vary from a misdemeanor to a felony) and possession of a controlled substance with intent to distribute which can carry prison terms up to twelve years. People should not be getting off easy for this stuff.

I'd rather upgrade sentencing on crimes that can be felonies because realistically speaking you would be handed over to the police and then tried and convicted for serious crimes. People need to realize their illegal doings have profound impacts on their freedom as well as the outside world.

So a couple of things I’d like to say about this. I can easily tell you that increasing current time is a bad idea. I mean if you increase current time to something longer for a simple fist fight then I can guarantee every person you attempt to arrest will resist like mad. Why you might ask? Because there is no reason not too. I mean If I’m gona be put out for the rest of the game because I punched someone well I’d better blow them up with c4 that takes out half the station instead. Why? Because punishment is not an effected behavior deterrent. You have to remember this is a game, not real life. Yes if I punch someone in real life I can go to jail for several days and what not. If I wanted to deal with real life I would go do my job at work and get paid, not sit on my computer playing a video game. The point of this game is so that everyone can be happy and enjoy themselves without stepping on other peoples toes. So no this game should not follow the model you purpose.

Furthermore it should not follow what you purpose not simply because it’s a game, but we know in real life your model does not work. First let me correct you, no drug use is not a crime in the real world, that’s in America (do we really want to follow Americas legal system? I mean really). Many countries don’t even consider drugs of any kind a problem and have flourishing prisoner reform systems. So please do not generalize a subject like that because I can easily point to plenty of examples where the crime is less then what you just said it is.

As I said, harsh punishment is not an effective behavior deterrent. We have proven this in psychology, and the horrid prison system that America has is a great example. We know that if we want to encourage a behavior a combination of rewards and punishment with an emphasis on rewards works much better. Which is what I am suggesting.

[Guest]

But it's not /just/ a game. People care about how much work gets put into this to make the game fun for everyone. I don't think you have a clear idea of who Sue is.

The punishments are so severe because, one, they less-than-accurately represent why it's bad to murder people as a non-antag or otherwise, and why you should be following the rules, ICly and OOCly. If you're committing crimes at the expense of another player's own fun, then you're going to be treated the same way.

The brig times are so severe so that you don't dick yourself over because you wanted to be a chucklefuck.

Did you know Paradise used to give people 15 minute sentences for murder? And people would SSD in their cells for that short of a time.

I like to think that no matter how people paint security that do their jobs, they make better players out of the community.

[LordFowl]

ICly, the brig times are ridiculously short. Most sentences are either permanent, or less than an hour. You've spent less than an hour in jail for committing a crime.

I personally think harsh punishment is the only way to deter crime; merely that our punishment is not harsh enough. At the very least, we should include torture for even minor crimes, like the Romans did. I personally propose a high risk of death sentence, preferably by firing squad and highly visible and ceremonious. Of course, this would entail some modification of the legality of what a company can and cannot do, but I am sure that the government forces that NanoTrasen and to an extent the NSS Aurora operates under would probably tolerate this kind of behavior.

[Guest Marlon Phoenix]

Holy poopoo pancakes, you guys are acting like we're testifying before Congress on what to do with US prisons.

The brig is an IC punishment, but it's not supposed to detract from player enjoyment. We have to decide between deterrence and enticement; Sue is strictly a deterrance lady. But that's the philosophy we've been doing for awhile, and its results are clear: People resist brig time like mad, because there's no real reward in cooperating. Giving officers the power to cut brig time in half if they cooperate would make it easier to rationalize just turning yourself in, because it's a big difference.

[the_furry]

Wow ok let me take this one at a time.

1138, stop talking about murder. I am not suggesting making any changes to the punishment for murder. I think perma brig for a major violent crime like that is acceptable and expected. What I am talking about is nonviolent/minorviolent crimes such as fights, durgs, not doing your duty, the punishment for these crimes should be lessened, only if the person is arrested willingly. That is a big difference than what you are talking about. Please get on the same page and address that. Also I’m not looking at this as /just/ a game. It’s important to me and I’ve put a lot of work into developing my character (and typing up well thought out suggestions to improve the game because I care about it).

Lord, I can simply say you are wrong on that. We have overwhelming evidence backed by the American psychological association that proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that harsh punishments do not deter criminal activity. And in fact if you up the punishment that will literally ruin the fun for everyone other than people who play security. I really don’t want to have to go and get the actual experiments to prove this as I am not in school anymore and we are discussing a game. But straight point is, that statement is completely wrong and misinformed. There are many other ways to detree crime that are much more effective. Such as what I am suggesting.

Jackboot, is there an up vote button?

[LordFowl]

And you expect me to trust psychologists on the matter? AMERICAN psychologists to boot? Pah, pussyfooters! What we need is a strong central security, one that can give the boot to the forces of chaos wherever they may lurk, that can exterminate the weed by its very roots.

[the_furry]

And you expect me to trust psychologists on the matter? AMERICAN psychologists to boot? Pah, pussyfooters! What we need is a strong central security, one that can give the boot to the forces of chaos wherever they may lurk, that can exterminate the weed by its very roots.

 

Lord whether you think we should trust American psychologists or not I don’t care. If you don’t think we should follow my suggestion please point out the flaws in the tactics I suggest. You have given no input into what it is about my suggestion about how It will not be an improvement other than (you think it wont work). Well think does cut it, I have provided support and referenced examples as to how my idea will work (and can reference more if you like) so please, if you can, address how my suggestion would not be an improvement. What is it about it that will make it not work.

Anyways I am also making an added edit to the OP

I would like to expand this by adding one more safe guard. I think it should be included that in order to receive the 75% off of your sentence you must also accept a tracking implant so that you may be monitored and may be found if anything else goes wrong. That way it will further reduce the likeliness that the person will go back to committing crimes.

[Lady_of_Ravens]

How about 50% off, that's still not bad, and all brig times being doubled? I'd like that. My character never gets briged.

[the_furry]

How about 50% off, that's still not bad, and all brig times being doubled? I'd like that. My character never gets briged.

thats not an improvement...that just increases the time if you do resist and if you don't then you get normal time.

[Guest Marlon Phoenix]

And you expect me to trust psychologists on the matter? AMERICAN psychologists to boot? Pah, pussyfooters! What we need is a strong central security, one that can give the boot to the forces of chaos wherever they may lurk, that can exterminate the weed by its very roots.

 

Lord whether you think we should trust American psychologists or not I don’t care. If you don’t think we should follow my suggestion please point out the flaws in the tactics I suggest. You have given no input into what it is about my suggestion about how It will not be an improvement other than (you think it wont work). Well think does cut it, I have provided support and referenced examples as to how my idea will work (and can reference more if you like) so please, if you can, address how my suggestion would not be an improvement. What is it about it that will make it not work.

Anyways I am also making an added edit to the OP

I would like to expand this by adding one more safe guard. I think it should be included that in order to receive the 75% off of your sentence you must also accept a tracking implant so that you may be monitored and may be found if anything else goes wrong. That way it will further reduce the likeliness that the person will go back to committing crimes.

 

I used to, as HoS, offer people brigged for a long amount of time that did grand theft or violent actions or whatever 'parole', in that I'd give them a tracking implant then release them, but admins told me to stop.

[the_furry]

And you expect me to trust psychologists on the matter? AMERICAN psychologists to boot? Pah, pussyfooters! What we need is a strong central security, one that can give the boot to the forces of chaos wherever they may lurk, that can exterminate the weed by its very roots.

 

Lord whether you think we should trust American psychologists or not I don’t care. If you don’t think we should follow my suggestion please point out the flaws in the tactics I suggest. You have given no input into what it is about my suggestion about how It will not be an improvement other than (you think it wont work). Well think does cut it, I have provided support and referenced examples as to how my idea will work (and can reference more if you like) so please, if you can, address how my suggestion would not be an improvement. What is it about it that will make it not work.

Anyways I am also making an added edit to the OP

I would like to expand this by adding one more safe guard. I think it should be included that in order to receive the 75% off of your sentence you must also accept a tracking implant so that you may be monitored and may be found if anything else goes wrong. That way it will further reduce the likeliness that the person will go back to committing crimes.

 

I used to, as HoS, offer people brigged for a long amount of time that did grand theft or violent actions or whatever 'parole', in that I'd give them a tracking implant then release them, but admins told me to stop.

why its an awesome idea

[NebulaFlare]

I......hate to rain on your parade.

The SoP are guideline rules. It's up to the security staff to determine how those guidelines are enforced. The lenience applied are warnings - no brig time, nothing on record. If they keep at it, then they get taken to the brig. IT honestly takes too much time and effort to process and arrest every single little issue. The SoP as it stands, is pretty decent in my views.

[the_furry]

Neb I understand your thought behind this idea that the sop should be a guideline and it should be left up to the security staff to determine how those guidelines work. But it only works if we have decent officers at the time. The biggest problem with it is it leaves the security staff solely in charge of that decision and if we have bad security staff then it is easily abused. I believe a large part of the complaints that hit security is because they don’t have good values. You put it well in my complaints forums when you said “You give them –criminals- the shortest brig time possible. Perma is strictly for grand-scale crimes (Or griefers). I mean big, evident threats, like a nuke-op. Vault contents can be replaced. Crew integrity, crew loyalty, crew productivity, and company reputation - those cannot be replaced” and if a majority of security officers held this thought then I would agree that it would make this rule change unnecessary.

However that is not the case. I’m suggesting the rule change because security does not appear to believe this and instead like as you also put “I'm –security officer- gonna pile up as many charges as I can against you so I have reason to keep you here for as long as possible”. It’s because officers have this mentality that I believe a rule change should be hard implemented to protect the players from security as much as giving security better tools to interact with players.