Eliot Clef

Looking at all of the stuff that can be acquired from hacked vending machines, I'd be inclined to assume that only 13 Loko is really contraband, and even then only because it's toxic -- not because it's from a hacked vendor. You could make arguments about stuff like the butcher's cleaver and knife, but as long as those are where they're supposed to be (kitchen area), I don't really see them as any more hazardous than the normal knives. (Is there something special about them?)

>Not listening to the Captain >M-MUH LAWFUL GOOD Seriously man, if the Captain says something, it's probably best to do it rather than disagreeing just because. If you don't want lethals fired at you, don't mutiny against the authority. There is zero justification for firing lethals at security on green alert to avoid a fifteen minute brig sentence. Even if you disagree with Security comprehensively (and I think you would be wrong to do so in this situation), this is indefensible behavior. I'd still like Nursie to weigh in directly, but as I've said in other threads, she indicated to me that she was legitimately brigged for threatening murder against the (I think) CMO, among a few other minor charges that she didn't recall. Ezra let her out a bit early because people didn't answer his questions in what he considered a timely manner. This isn't OK. I'm willing to believe that Ezra was acting in good faith, but it doesn't mean that he was right. He was objectively, irrefutably wrong even insofar as Skull32's criteria for Captains overriding Security decisions in green alert is concerned.

I'm fairly certain that Skull has said that the Captain can override Security when they're actually stepping out of line. What he can't do is override valid regulatory breaches and the brig time resulting from that. This is, of course, some muddy water we're treading and it can be hard to determine what is legitimate and what isn't. In the case of the incident with Ezra, the brigging was legitimate by the admission of the party subject to it (Nursie/Phoebe Essel), again unless I terribly misunderstood my conversation with her in ghostchat last night, which is what lead to this giant debate taking place across multiple threads.

I'm pretty sure the round that prompted this discussion had Command agreeing that the Captain stepped terribly out of line. I'm not certain they were intent on demoting him? Exceeding Official Powers is only a fifteen minute sentence unless they're pushing it to the absurd and unnecessary extreme of maximum time plus demotion. At any rate, I can't comment on that particular matter. I don't know what kind of time Security that round intended to give him. I don't think demoting the Captain should be particularly simple unless the Captain broke regulations that would also be considered serious crimes, like murder. I also don't think putting the Captain in time-out for a while should be impossible because he's the Captain. My one experience with an HoS who was an "Asshole Head" was a guy who wouldn't allow carbine use when a nukeop squad was running around with ballistics. Asshole HoSes get people killed instead of being a little obnoxious. I will say in defense of your overall argument that I am, in fact, generally opposed to most anything that allows people to run interference against Security, because Security is already an obnoxious enough job where people will hate you even if you're right. I don't really relish dealing with some screaming, flailing asshole and have to deal with his screaming and flailing while being questioned every step of the way by some other source. (Admittedly, the quality of sec lately has dipped towards pretty terrible on some rounds, and I suspect my "desired standards" aren't as high as yours might be.)

"Stuff from the vending machines", even if the vending machines had to be hacked, don't generally qualify as contraband. It's usually silly stuff, or maybe slightly better equipment than the machine would normally give you.

In this specific case the person who was arrested (Nursie/Phoebe Essel) said to me in deadchat earlier (unless I gravely misunderstood our conversation) that she was legitimately detained with a timer of 11 minutes, which was presumably cancelled around the two minute mark leading to this overall incident. The rules-as-written specifically forbid the Captain from doing something like this, at least without a good justification, and I think the rules-as-written should stay this way. (I am however a regular Security player and would prefer a minimum of rule-sanctioned behavior that permits people to deliberately run interference against Security except when absolutely necessary.)

Security sometimes has a very difficult time with the notion of, "Not normally available in a vending machine" not meaning, "Isn't actually contraband/against the rules." I don't know why and it drives me insane when I have to explain this to people.

I'm bringing this over here from a Player Complaint thread, because I feel like it seriously warrants inquiry and discussion as to intent of gameplay, and I don't really want that thread to be completely dominated by this discussion. Is the Captain meant to be utterly beyond reproach to the point where he cannot be arrested under most circumstances without contacting Central Command? The way Corporate Regulations are written, particularly Tells me, "Yes, the Captain can overstep his boundaries and get arrested. No, the Captain is not allowed to do absolutely anything he pleases." However, it appears that Jackboot at least is of the opinion that this charge cannot or should not be applied to the Captain by definition. So, I want a dialogue opened. How's this supposed to be? How should the Security-Captain relationship work? To a lesser extent, how should the Security-Command relationship work overall? What is Staff's official stance on this?

They don't? I thought the captain had the ability to override anybody's judgement (within reason). I am fairly certain that Jamini is reacting at least in part to the events described in this complaint >> http://aurorastation.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=35&t=2803 Personally I don't really care if the Captain or even Security pardons/reduces sentences for stuff, but I think the waters are going to get reaaaaaal muddy on this front. The line between waving people through for relatively minor stuff and simply interfering with Security operations is pretty fine, and even the minor stuff can bite you in the ass. (I know, I tended to let people go with warnings early on in my time here. They usually wound back up in the brig for something worse than I released them for.)

Ezra Scott released a prisoner who, if the logs are to be believed, was attempting to undergo a species reassignment procedure and getting screamy/violent when they weren't allowed to go about it. This was explained, up front, to Ezra, who disregarded this input and said that no charges were presented. And continued to claim that this was not explained to him throughout the entire ordeal. Ultimately, this incident is somewhat petty as it was over a handful of minutes at most. But. If a Captain is stepping in and interfering with Security without understanding what is going on with a Security situation, I absolutely do think they're within their rights to arrest him for Exceeding Official Powers. Let's read Exceeding Official Powers. Captain Ezra Scott, in this situation, interfered while: 1) Disregarding Security explanations, 2) Willfully refusing attempts to clarify, 3) Releasing a prisoner prior to completing their brig time, and insisting correctness in spite of explanations justifying the prisoner's (allegedly minor) brig time, 4) Fled Security to the bridge, where other members of Command got involved and requested an explanation... and agreed that the Captain should be arrested. 5) Escalated to lethals before the conclusion of the conflict. Even if you agree that literally everyone else was in the wrong up until step 5, there is basically no universe in which step 5 was acceptable. Everyone was telling Ezra he was wrong, and he wasn't listening. Dealing with superiors when they break the rules is, in fact, Security's job. This is not rendered invalid when the person being subjected to arrest thinks they're wrong. Of course they get to tell their bosses no and get away with it completely scot-free.

The "Mall Cops" label is one used almost exclusively by people who are looking to attack/insult Security because of one thing or another that Security did to make them angry. We've gone a long time without it being used "seriously", and I'd like to keep it that way. We don't claim that R&D is staffed entirely by state college rejects, we don't claim that Engineering is staffed by high school dropouts, etc. Security, along with every profession with a prominent department on the station, should be afforded respect as professionals in their field. In this case, they're professionals expected to guard a facility equipped with a nuclear device, a general-purpose research facility that produces light to heavy weapons, potentially weaponized viral agents, etc. The Aurora is not a mall. It is a cutting-edge research facility. It will have an appropriate security team.

Most IAAs who come aboard the station are newbies or light griefers. You're not going to be able to enforce IAAs having this quasi-supreme authority to hassle people with significant legitimacy so long as that remains true. The role honestly needs whitelisting to have anywhere near the weight that Xander seems to want out of it, and even then I'm a bit hesitant. There needs to be a lot of leeway to disregard them if they're being obstructionist assholes, or having differences of opinion in policy.

Strong recommendation to require the applicant to wait for at least a month to submit another application for Head whitelisting, preferably with evidence that they have been playing regularly during this time period. This application is, almost, word-for-word identical to the last one that was submitted by and denied for this person last time.

Edited by SierraKomodo

I haven't seen Cobra in play since the last application was put in, at least not on Ondoncil Veigel, so I can't really remark on whether or not my issues were remedied. At very least he hasn't been spamming up OOC trying to get his application attention, so that's one issue I can regard as a lesson learned. Tentatively though, I'd consider no news to be good news.

I have every confidence in Sue's ability to play some cool robots, and this application is just... good. I can't put it any other way. The effort in it is self-evident.

This Incident Report is accompanied by a signed statement by Forensic Technician IAM, certifying that the events within occurred as-described, with an accompanying addendum clarifying that Security Cadet Nia Snyder was evidently triggered to assault Milo Hachert by being referred to as Cadet. (OOC Note: IAM was asked for a signature/statement on the incident report before the end of the shift, and agreed to give it, so he would have had brief access post-shift to make his statement/addendum.)

At present, I'm fairly certain this is intended on account of the fact that they are machines and the principles that should make most sec gear work wouldn't work on a non-organic. Supposedly batons aren't even supposed to work. I'm not sure what the reasoning is with flashes.

The answer for why this is that people play AI and Cyborg much more rarely than they do, or WOULD do, everything else on that list. The people who know how to be truly DANGEROUS with AI and Cyborg are even less likely to be problem players than random chucklefucks who might decide to be a godawful Head of Security. AI is generally, for whatever reason, regarded as an extremely difficult role even by random newmans, and I just don't see bad ones very often. I see poorly-behaved Heads of Security WITH the whitelist more than I see actual bad AIs or Cyborgs, and that's across my total time with Aurora, not just this last couple of weeks. AI is a role that is often difficult to fill, and usually is not abused. Cyborg is somewhat less difficult, not too difficult to fill, and also usually is not abused. When they ARE abused, I see synth-bans handed out with a click of the fingers. "Normal" player mobs misbehaving? I see that a lot, a LOT more often. I see members of Security join who decide they don't like the Head of Security telling them they can't break into the bar and serve drinks after a high-tension situation. And then, decide to beat said Head of Security to death along with the Captain and another Officer. I see them failing to apprehend a single guy because they keep rushing him single file in a narrow corridor. I see them cuffing up a suspected antag, taking him into the crime lab, shooting him, and beating him to death with a crowbar. For whatever reason, this kind of incompetence and rule-breaking simply doesn't happen as often with AI/Borgs, when it does it is resolved far more rapidly, and for that reason alone it makes complete sense to whitelist "regular" player roles, and not whitelist AI/Borgs.

That's fine. Feel free to lock and archive this topic.

well, i don't want to argue, but i am not trying to make a masterpiece here, just a realistic and believable backstory. I am not good at writhing things like this, i just want to have fun and play this amazing game on this very good and fun server, nothing else. There is a serious lack of HoS's on this server, i only want to help. An Admin (TishinaStalker) has already told you what the issue is, and what will be required for this application to go forward. I'm really not certain what can be said that hasn't already been said. If you'd like an example of an approved Head Whitelist application, here you go >> http://aurorastation.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=29&t=2123

I am pretty much in agreement with Susan here, and to add to this, I want to note that using a Stun Baton against a skilled opponent is VERY risky business. I've seen less-than-skilled sec members get completely dominated by an Unathi who broke their cuffs and went into melee with them and got the baton away. Yes, you can decisively end the conflict very quickly, but you can also get overpowered and have the conflict ended on your end too. It's happened to me, albeit not in a while. More importantly, I'm going to lay down a really harsh truth here real quick: Security's player quality has taken a real dive in the last week or so. If this code solution is meant to solve that problem, Iiiii don't think it's going to. Telebatons are very, very good weapons but one of the things about them is the fact that they're ruinously damaging if you use them that way. I want you to imagine every questionable security player we've had recently, armed not with stun equipment but with a very lethal brute weapon as their decisive "get shit done in melee" tool. In all, I really don't want us to be Baystation with our security equipment, and given my experiences in Security recently, I really don't want highly lethal tools to be passed out to encourage some weird idea of greater restraint.

Alright. I'm going to amend my thoughts now. Firstly, this: Secondly: Ondoncil is prone to a few other bad habits that indicates to me he's not too familiar with the culture/policies of Aurora. He's been a 21-year-old IAA, he seems to drift across departments (although if it's just science and security this isn't completely farfetched) freely, etc.

Nanda is just all-around good people. Never seen any issues come up with her, her antag play is very mild and reasonable even when she's toting around e-swords, good with the mechanics of the game, good at roleplaying all sorts of stuff -- though my biggest interaction with her is through Aquila.

I'm going to have to second kiwi's strong suggestion that you spend much more time on the server than you have so far before you even attempt to put in a Head application. You haven't had time to get to know us, we haven't had time to get to know you, and Head of Security can be a hair-tearing hell of a job. We've been having enough problems with base Security Officers that there's an active suggestion to have a "soft" whitelist on a timer before people can join those roles at all.