Eliot Clef

Second verse, same as the first. Lock and archive as you please!

Alright. Feel free to lock and archive this, then.

Alright. Feel free to lock and archive this, then.

Please don't put up pointless complaints. We don't need a "paper trail" because we already have player notes on server. This isn't really doing anything other than "Look at this player, everyone. He's bad." rather than "Admins, this is bad, please manage it." When you consider the fact that you said that staff have already handled the situation. I will keep that in mind for future complaints, although to be perfectly clear, this post was not meant in the spirit you've taken from it. I administrate a roleplaying community myself, and establishing a firm paper trail is something that I appreciate people doing, which is why I do it here. (My community is less thoroughly logged and has less systems to tag somebody directly for misbehavior though, so the need isn't really present here I guess.) That said, Japak121 was the staffer in question and clarified that the only thing he handled was the very public outburst at the end of the round (and I guess an ahelp from BigJoJo?), so I'm pretty sure a good bit of this hasn't been discussed with this player.

Hey. I'm reviving this thread to discuss a couple of things that have come up relating to this since the last time it was discussed. As you all know, I opposed IPCs being considered non-people. I still oppose it, to be perfectly clear, but I'll suggest an alternative to my preference for simply wiping the slate clean on this one. Simply put: I've been away for a while, but now that I've been back for a little while, it seems to me like this lore change hasn't stuck in practice. Security charges people with the quick and intuitive Battery/Minor Assault/Assault/Murder the same way they normally do, even when IPCs are involved. This is because this is very intuitive and how they deal with it the vast majority of the time. IPCs, if I'm not mistaken on this thread, are divided into two classes: IPCs who have somehow earned their emancipation and rights, and IPCs who are simply property. You can't tell one from the other at a glance, and therefore you can't tell what charges should occur in the event that one is attacked. This is not intuitive for Security's purposes. My strong and deeply personally biased suggestion: Consider this lore change to have effectively been subject to the SS13 equivalent of jury nullification. It doesn't get played, so it effectively isn't relevant. Let people go back to rightly dealing with things the way they do with everyone else. My alternative suggestion based on previous majority decision: Instead of having IPCs split up into different classes, have most "violence-related" offenses aimed at IPCs downgraded by a single step on the basis that IPCs are really damned hard to kill. So what would be Assault against a non-robot becomes Minor Assault against a robot, Minor Assault becomes battery, etc.

BYOND Key: Aedan Player Byond Key: BigJoJo Staff involved: Moderator Japak121 Reason for complaint: This guy was a huge, raging douche when his huge, raging douche of a character was lawfully arrested and subject to a demotion. He also appeared to not realize that he's on a Heavy RP Server. To be clear, I understand he's already been talked to, but I want to establish a paper trail so I'm making a complaint here on the boards anyhow in case this behavior persists. If you guys (staff) feel this is already handled, feel free to just archive it. Below is a couple of extremely messy logs that includes IC and OOC interactions with this player and other (this includes less-than-sterling and petty behavior on the part of my character): Second one: Approximate Date/Time: 9/1/2015, somewhere between 9:30 and 10:35 PM CST. (Probably closest to 10:00 PM.)

I didn't know we stopped doing this either. Can we please resume doing this?

FYI Furry, as much as Delta has been complaining about Geneticist stuff, he was on your side for the most part during the round itself. The CMO was freaking out and ordering a lot of frivolous arrests and we were kind of done with her. We got a lot of misinformation about what you were/weren't allowed to do before we realized arresting you was a huge waste of our time.

Nah. So, basically, I've already had this great big screaming argument. Not gonna have it again, don't have the energy. The only thing I'll add to it is that Telekinetics isn't that strong. You can't grab people with it, you can't operate some machines, you can't use TK + Remote Viewing to any sort of real effect that I know of. It's a pretty niche power that can mostly be used to annoy people. It definitely doesn't rate 7 TC. Genetics needs an overhaul, this dusty old powers batch is long exhausted of its fun potential.

This is only convenient for an AI, which can specifically track people down. This is also mitigated heavily by sheer population density. The AI simply isn't going to be tracking individual players that often. They're more likely to encounter somebody doing something by chance, simply because their perceptions are so broad, relatively speaking. Spying on individuals via the cameras as a non-AI, however, is pretty impractical. Probably on purpose! Except for borgs! Borgs have distinctive camera names (their own name, of course) and there's usually only a couple of them. You can easily have every borg on the station watched, making everything the borg does a risky move if they're an antagonist. As you've pointed out, it's a bit difficult to hide from the AI. But it isn't impossible. Those cameras can be disabled, you can go to an outpost, you can go to maintenance, hell you can even hide from the AI in a locker and it won't be able to find you on its tracker easily. A Borg can't do any of those things without blinding itself. (And I don't know that this turns off the camera monitor to begin with.)

Alright. One time, the AI was Malf. One of my fellow borgs was a murderous lunatic, who went around melting things with chems, and did the same to people. I spent a moment considering stashing a resulting corpse someplace. For whatever reason, a sec officer -- and I at the time had no reason to be considered suspicious -- was watching my camera and immediately demanded an explanation. I bullshitted an explanation, but I'm pretty sure I was watched close from then on out. Yinzr (I think), Ana, and I once noticed a borg acting somewhat suspicious, so we asked it its laws, then ordered it to go on patrol. Then we watched. It went straight back to the roboticist who had subverted it, and we managed to wrap the case up pretty quickly. Simply put, all it takes is miniscule suspicion or bad luck for a borg-mounted camera to foil synthetic rebellions and subversion. And it follows you everywhere, there's no getting rid of it. There's no hidey holes or maintenance escapes. Borgs are decently dangerous, but I think people severely overstate how ridiculous they really are.

I'd like to talk about these a little bit, because they're simultaneously fairly useful, but also somewhat rough on synthetic antagonists. Basically, because they're walking camera nodes, it can become really easy to out a subverted or otherwise traitorous cyborg. You watch them a little bit, or a lot, and you can figure out that they're engaging in suspicious behavior. (It also makes overt suspicious actions very risky, because all it takes is one person at a camera monitor happening to look at your display to discover your shenanigans.) Admittedly, most of the time cyborgs only get watched through their cameras if they're specifically calling attention to themselves somehow or if they've asked for attention to be directed to their camera. Realistically, this is exactly how things should go, and I've heard it suggested that Security players should have body cam equipment that operates in much the same way. But, I think that maybe there should be an option to disable/remove cyborg cameras without blinding the borg in the process. Maybe for newly-built borgs it's an optional (but highly recommended) component, or maybe malf/traitor AIs get tools to disable the borg cameras? Unsure.

I don't actually have a problem with basically anything you're identifying as a problem. I'm totally cool with people changing their votes. I'm totally cool with people changing their votes specifically to vote against a game mode they wouldn't like to play. If a few people would like to play Z but a narrow majority vote X and sufficient people would rather change their vote to Y to avoid X, I think that's completely fair. If X had enough overall support people wouldn't change away from their niche game modes to Y to avoid it. Honestly, I think the main thing hiding or locking the votes would do is make Secret the safest game mode for everyone to vote for.

To be perfectly honest, I don't mind if people go SSD/disconnect through their brig time. What's the difference between doing that and simply tabbing out for the duration? For all practical purposes, none at all. I didn't support this sort of thing when Officers wanted them put in holding until they woke up to serve their sentence awake, and I don't really support it now. Also, these two didn't really give me the time to be more interesting than I was, which I'll admit 'wasn't very'. They spent a short while being really nasty, and then they went SSD. Once I'm done getting prisoners settled, unless there's some other task I need to engage in, I'll usually sit around and chat with prisoners. Basically though, I do agree with Brage. I'm not certain these two don't need a ban of some kind, but I'd rather it not be because they logged off under sentencing. If they're habitually horrible to people, that's a pretty good reason, but if people want to go do something else for a while while they're brigged, I'm totally OK with that.

BYOND Key: Aedan Player Byond Key: Monica Wentzel (Reo neo cooper), Spooce (Derrik Bolton), both assumed on reasonably good grounds. Additional parties, whom I am not complaining of: Detective Cladius Mccullough, I believe played by SoapyCup. (Again, this is simply an assumption I made based on LOOC chatter/proximity.) Staff involved: I did not ahelp this. Reason for complaint: Alright, so. Dead hour, around 2:40-3:00 AM CST on 8/23/2015. These two get into some trouble for screwing around too much, and start taking it OOC as hard and fast as they're able, while ICly screaming shitcurity, etc. Extended exploration of the situation below, in spoilers for length. I can provide a more complete log of my round up to that point of desired, as this is cut up into snippets. I feel like, in all honesty, they were attempting to take advantage of my willingness to give them the benefit of the doubt to get away with as much as possible. But it's possible they're simply not accustomed to how Aurora works. (Or, alternatively, I am not accustomed to how Aurora has changed while I was away.) Approximate Date/Time: Around 2:40-3:00 AM CST on 8/23/2015.

Boring, but practical. By the way: The charges for Vandalism and Sabotage (equiv to Minor Assault/Assault) are somewhat worse for the person on the receiving end compared to Minor Assault and Assault. The only place where this doesn't just make things worse for people messing with IPCs is murder, and I guarantee you that Security is going to hemm and haww over reduced charges against somebody who removed somebody from the round just because that person happened to be a robot. I definitely would. I have some mild concerns about this that are related to OOC attitudes surrounding IPCs, where I've seen some players argue that they should literally not be people in the sense that other PC types are even from an OOC standpoint (for instance, not having ghosts, not being able to be cultists or wizards, etc.), and I'd really like it clarified that this won't result in IPCs getting railroaded into being more and more second-class citizens further down the road.

Notwithstanding my massive IPC bias, I have believed since I played a regular human dude that for the sake of simplicity and PC mob should fall under the same IC laws as any other PC mob. This includes cyborgs, not just IPCs. This is mostly to avoid a bunch of Ifs, Ands, or Buts to charges when arresting people. In terms of as-an-IPC Player, I agree with Inside_Out_Starfish pretty much entirely.

Alberyk is a good player all-around. He's one of the best antags on the server, he's fun to play "against" when you're an antag, his characters are pretty memorable, and he is generally level-headed even if he does have his characters do some questionable stuff. Yinzr pretty much defines Unathi to me, as well, so I have no doubt that he can play other xenos well.

Ok. This doesn't really make it not stupid to make a Head of Staff your disposals delivery point man if you have any other choices.

I went and read the thread this quote snippet was from. I'm under the impression that the problem was the weird caricature of a Head of Security going disposals diving solo to take some guys down solo while they were being negotiated with, which is all sorts of inappropriate for reasons entirely unrelated to the act of taking his target down. Jackboot is not the Lord of Appropriate Security Action. If somebody has tried or succeeded at murdering somebody and this fact is known, there is no real problem with using lethals OR non-lethals to subdue them, though non-lethals will generally be preferred. Disclaimer: I am also not the Lord of Appropriate Security Action.

Aurora's habit of requiring Geneticists to do paperwork before they can do the interesting 3/4ths of their job is something that came about as a result of rampaging Hulks. The consequence of this is that a significant minority of command role players will deny Geneticists the ability to self-test at all, and deny them the ability to test on a test subject. This results in a job that can't do a significant portion of its gameplay, and which doesn't actually stop bad Geneticists from doing what they want. Every time Vovo Transudo shows up, hulks out, and breaches medical while leading Security on a manhunt, he does it regardless of the IC rules and regulations that are typically enforced. As a secondary consequence, "good" Geneticists who are denied the ability to do their job will often seek out "quiet" genemods and apply them to themselves unbeknownst to anyone. X-Ray Vision is a good example of this. I feel that Xenobiology self-experimentation, however, is a different can of worms. It's true that genetics self-testing is a big no-no, but slime outbreaks are hideously dangerous (even compared to a rampaging hulk) and transforming one's self into a slime is approximately equivalent to committing suicide. Unless there are special measures in place (plans for post-experiment cloning, which would require a really fucked up test subject essentially signing off on dying and being cloned), I don't see a reasonable way to ICly justify allowing that sort of thing to occur. It's very comparable to voluntary cyborgification, which most people are ICly weirded out by and opposed to. TL;DR: What everybody else said. It's just a social reaction to bad geneticists that doesn't actually solve the problem of bad geneticists. Xenobiology is a different matter, though.

Can confirm. Not having a filing cabinet causes a mess to accumulate rapidly.

Can't quote, on remote at the moment so its a bit impractical. But as I covered in my previous post and as Nursie has confirmed, the arrest and brig time was legitimate. The Captain released Phoebe with incomplete information and refused to listen to those who arrived to present said information afterwards. I agree that there was a brief window where his actions were acceptable and reasonable in the context of the information available to him, but that rapidly went out the window.

Oh, shit. Okay, I'll move this here instead of PMs. This is in itself is a contradiction. What you are describing is, by definition, a pardon. Skull32 defined what Ezra ATTEMPTED to do, and what Captains ARE allowed to do, as a nullification of an unjust sentence. Ezra believed he was correct about this, and I believe he was acting in good faith, but he was wrong. Here is the relevant statement from the person who was imprisoned >> http://aurorastation.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=35&t=2803&start=20#p28013 By definition, Ezra could not issue a legal nullification of a legitimate sentence to any degree. Not a reduction, not a "pardon", nothing. His actions here had no legitimacy. He believed the sentence to be illegitimate, but we know for a fact that he was wrong about this. And here, I think, is where we disagree critically. I think what the Captain did was clearly, immediately, unambiguously against corporate regulations, albeit driven by ignorance rather than a deliberate intent to do so, and ultimately deteriorated into attempted murder by means of using lethal firearms to resist detainment. As such, I think Security acted within the boundaries of what Skull32 has laid out, and the Captain was much more heavily out of line. I'm not sure our viewpoints can really be reconciled, honestly.

I've outlined why I disagree with your assessment of the situation here: >> http://aurorastation.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=2809&start=10#p28011 I can import it into this thread if desired, but I feel like we're already pushing what's reasonable discussion for this complaint thread.