Frances

Please elaborate a bit on the circumstances of why you were banned, and how you think your actions led you to it, as well as what you could do to avoid getting into such a situation in the future.

Bluh. In all the commotion surrounding personal obligations and issues, I forgot to check on this, once again. Ban lifted, and my apologies for being so slow in handling the matter.

Okay, this actually seems surprisingly thought-out. Will wait to see input from a few other people before making a final decision.

You've amassed quite a bit of notes. I don't think I have to go on the server to fetch all of them (though I could if you wanted), but I think one consistent issue we had is that you always played very incompetent characters, who were more an annoyance than funny. For example, a sec officer who takes every order in the most literal and worst possible way, while also being terribly incompetent. That's funny for one round. But playing characters who need to be demoted every round gets on players' nerves really fast. Additionally, your characters have a habit of shooting people (and killing them) by accident or overreaction, up to and including after we jobbanned you from security (you still found ways to shoot people for comedic effect nevertheless, which is why we issued a permaban.) I would like to see you address these points a bit more (at least a few paragraphs), because considering this is an appeal for a rather serious permaban, I find it a bit short.

Entirely stealth cult is very boring for the rest of the crew - essentially like a malf AI that does nothing but take over APCs, and suddenly end the round 2 hours in. Should we begin to witness more of those, I am fully for either directing the players out of the hideouts, or force them to abandon them, through destruction or some such. While culting exclusively on the outposts does provide RP for the members of the cult, it leaves the rest of the crew devoid of it, until a random fully-equipped cult busts down their doors some hours in. Antagonists exist to provide enjoyment to the rest of the crew - something I feel is especially important when the roundtype is centered around a potentially highly aggressive type of antag, such as nuke or cult. Killing your victims and taking over the station with minimal RP with the general crew essentially amounts to very unenjoyable ganking. I'd still like to see what the cultists have to say on the matter, however, especially on the summoning of Nar'sie.

Ban lifted following a conversation with a few more members of staff. Seems like this was enough punishment for what happened, and I think it's obvious you've learned from your mistake. Looking forward to seeing you in game.

I believe at this point granting you an unban would be reasonable. If I don't hear from Halo by tomorrow, I'll lift the ban myself, unless any objections come up.

I will also add that I believe this is a point you should have mentioned at some point during your original post.

I would like to formally apologize for my actions. It appears standard procedure for these cases is to leave extended untouched on the first round, and offer to add antags once a second continuous extended vote goes through, something I was not aware of. Having (now) been informed, I take full responsibility for this, and recognize my mistake here.

Except we don't want to restrict players or constrain them in what they want to do. If we tell them specifically to go be annoying or cause mischief, that's giving them restrictions that don't necessarily end in roleplay that's more interesting than traditional antagging. I'll be fair in admitting I don't always understand what antags want to do (a lot of them seem to sit around and not do anything), but I can think of a lot more interesting things to do than simple rabble-rousing. (I'm not saying rabble-rousing is bad. People are invited to do it, if they wish. But I don't want to constrain them to it. Makes sense?)

I'm not looking for you to provide excuses. I'm looking for you to provide some guarantee that this won't happen again. And a "I promise I won't do it" won't cut it, because I believe that's pretty much what you've given us in the past, then you broke your word, breaking server rules as recently as yesterday. In fact, I believe Skull told you how close you were to being banned again. I suggest you look heavily at fixing your behavior before you ask us to lift any outstanding bans you might have.

Except that sounds more like inciting people to be major annoyances for others (remember that guy who keeps getting into petty fights over dumb things and needs to be brigged every 20 minutes), and this is exactly what we don't want.

Again, not what ends up happening. Despite people picking it, last round's extended (the one this complaint originated from) ended up lasting around 2 hours, before people transferred out of boredom. One argument people will certainly bring up is that at that point, we might as well not add any antags, and let people enjoy their two hours of peace before a transfer vote gets inevitably forced. This is something I'm trying to figure out, and if trying to spice up extended rounds to avoid immediate transfer does end up being a complete failure, I'll stop attempting to do so. But in my recent experience, there have been a few extended rounds that successfully turned into semi-traitor rounds, letting people who had begun chair RP pursue it as they wanted, while giving the rest of the crew something to do.

Again, I addressed most of this in the post I just made, though I'll pull it aside here to point out why I can't agree with it. An extended round is not supposed to represent a normal workday. Extended is supposed to be a gamemode with relatively little conflict (because yeah, there's always going to be the average troll, IC fight, etc etc), but as I said, we are not a job simulator. Having some time to talk with your friends is something perfectly reasonable to ask for (having a completely uneventful round of a four hour patrol with no incidents is not, and that would be closer to a normal workday). But you can't expect the rest of the world to stop completely so you can do your chair RP. We haven't added any vampires. We haven't added any mass bombers, or syndie ops, or revolutionaries. We've added a few antags, hopefully with mild, rp-oriented objectives, who we cannot guarantee, but are likely to not impact the round as a whole (again, examples of when extended/autotraitors turned to shit because of that, please), which feels like a much better situation than leaving half of the server to twiddle their thumbs until they get pissed at a gamemode that we do our best to make fun for everyone.

I'm not saying we have a 100% good selection rate, but I'd like to think we're able to do a significantly better job than random selection, and I actually have evidence for this. 1. We try to pick people who are generally appreciated, or cause the least commotion, among regular antags. People that basically roleplay in their own little antag world, not set up a bunch of bombs. 2. We ignore people who are kill-happy, or poor rpers, something random selection does not. 3. We favor new players, or players who have not antagged, but seem reasonable, thus giving them a better chance to show off. While not directly related to this argument, I think that's something worth mentioning. 4. We actually engage in communication with all the people we antag, something the automated system does not. Having a clear line of communication between antags and staff does reduce the amount of "I'm gonna blow errything up without asking permission" dramatically. I would also like to see concrete examples of admin-selected antags who have done a terrible job, if not to provide your argument better basis, at least so we can talk to them and make sure incidents like this don't repeat themselves. I sincerely believe you're failing at understand the desires of the community, and may be antagonizing it. We are not interested in catering to people who want "randumb explosions"; this is a heavy-rp server, after all. But a majority of people who support antags being added simply want /events/ to happen during their shift, because a regular workshift, if you're not chatting it up with your friends (which most people afaik don't do constantly), is pretty damn boring. As for telling people to fuck off because they don't like the gamemode, that's a no. If we can agree that antags being added in this case was not majorly disruptive to chair-rpers (which should bring us to the other arguments), this one gets solved, because it seems like refusing to give half of the playerbase what they want so that the other half can chair-rp slightly better seems much more like pampering than what I've done. I have played several rounds every day for the past week, which several people on the staff can attest to. I won't try to address the reason why you think otherwise, though I can say I don't understand where it comes from. (You bring up the point again later in your post, so I'll address it more fully there.) Furthermore, this feels irrelevant to me, because traitor is not nuke or rev. People have complained consistently about rev and nuke (and cult) for months, this is nothing new. They're not the same gamemode, and have very different dynamics at play. I'm not saying our choices will always have the advantage of making everyone happy. But when a majority of the server is being bored to death, these are other people who are not having fun, and I think their opinions should be taken into consideration too. It would not, if nearly all of our votes weren't taken on 50% +1 situations. In this case, I had no qualms (and do not believe was at fault for) choosing the option which seemed the least impactful for the most people (the occasional, arguably low risk of a few people's chair-rp being broken up, for providing a modicum of entertainment to the rest of the station, as opposed to leaving a majority of people with nothing to do, with the round ending early.) There is a way to present things. This was not it, and you rescind the rights to your argument the moment you resort to calling people "pussy ass babies", when I can think of a million different ways you could have said things without needing to be offensive as fuck. Then, examples. Because right now, we're stuck in an impasse, where you tell me: "Shit's been happening", and I retort, "I've seen no such shit." I have, however, been on the server, likely on different time slots, but as is, this is an incomplete argument (and don't bring up rp-rev or nuke rounds to justify getting rid of traitors, they are /not/ comparable). It seems to me like you are completely ignoring my initial explanation, which was that these kind of votes are not disruptive. If you believe they are a problem, it is your responsibility to bring up examples as to how they are, which I believe should be the main argument of your next reply. This is pretty much the only valid point I see in this; calling these kind of votes does change people's expectations of the round. However, once again, back to my main point: if more people join during the round (or if a majority of people who want action split their votes between different gamemodes, letting extended win), it seems perfectly reasonable to throw them a bone, coming to what I think is a very reasonable agreement between extended players and players who would rather play something other than extended, instead of simply letting people transfer out after a 2-hour round. One last thing I will say, about "peacefulness", is that we're essentially a SS13 server with a heavy-RP twist, not a job simulator in the SS13 universe. People come on to have fun, and playing most of these jobs with nothing to do but talk to your coworkers (something which most people find they cannot do constantly) is a harrowing experience. For example, security guards. No one wants to be a security guard IRL because it's fun. You stand around for eight hours with (hopefully) nothing to do (if your job goes well), and people do it for the pay. But since our players don't get paid for playing roles, they play them because they expect them to result in fun events. And yes, fun can come from sitting around and discussing backstories with someone else. But since most players do not do that constantly, and we cannot expect them to, I think we have a duty to provide something to them. As such, the whole excuse that our server should be peaceful as an ideal is something I want to dismiss.

Let me try to explain why this happens. Adding antags in extended is primarily a way to extend the gamemode. Relatively often, extended will get voted on during prime time, and transferred out of very quickly, as a lot of people get bored with it. By adding antags, we can cater both to players wishing to play them, and members of security and medical not engaging in chair-rp, who otherwise have nothing to do. Thus, the round usually lasts 3 hours or more, rather than a flat 2 + transfer, which imo doesn't give extended rpers enough time to roleplay. (And in my experience, there's nothing a character-rper hates more than an overly short round.) I think another thing to consider is that admin-picked antags in extended are not the same thing as autotraitor. Autotraitor picks all kinds of people (which still isn't as bad as being stuck with, e.g., a shitty wizard,) while following a vote, we try to pick antags who we already know will favor heavy roleplaying, or are new players who seem decent and have no outstanding notes. And that is a big difference from "technically anybody who hasn't been so horrible we've antag-banned them yet." In my experience, chair-roleplayers rarely run into antags anymore, and when they have to face them, it's usually because someone is running around blowing half the station, murdering at random, and being a terrible antag, which isn't what we're picking anyway. And with the removal of objectives, it's highly unlikely for you to run into an antag at random (and most players can find some time to roleplay uninterrupted or delegate tasks to other members in their departments, even on autotraitor). So, that explained, onto other parts of the complaint. -Making a vote on this particular round: Somebody called a transfer vote an hour in, which was met with a 50/50 response before being cancelled. I decided to go with this antag vote because half of the people not wanting to play the roundtype after just an hour is never a good thing. -Timing: Adding traitors at the 2-hour mark does nothing but bore people to death, because then they have to wait an hour or two more for traitors to actually take action. If traitors are to be added into a round, it must be done early. -Changing the entire gamemode with a single vote: This is really not what happened here. Adding a few soft antags does not radically change the gamemode the way the addition of a wizard or nuke ops does. I think this simply cannot be compared to "changing a changeling round into extended". Additionally, for the reasons stated above, I do not think this undermined half of the server to cater to the other half - most players wishing to chair RP by all accounts will be able to continue on with their chair RP, especially since objectiveless, hand-picked antags ensure that nobody should come to blow up in their face. -The number of votes: I find this argument irrelevant, given that the initial call of extended vs secret was decided by a single vote (and often is), and that once again, what was done did not constitute a majorly disruptive change for all. -"It's been voted for, end of story.": I had to put an end to the conversation in OOC due to some people introducing their arguments in extremely offensive ways, such as The conversation would have continued had people proven able to discuss it properly. Additionally, it had already been mentioned several times that the argument could have been taken to the forums (which is what happened, which I appreciate.) So it's not like I was attempting to cut off all discussion on this. I believe this covers the main points of your complaint. Feel free to argue or disagree with any of what I've said, and I'll do my best to address it as I have so far. tl;dr High-pop extended is too peaceful, gets transferred easily, adding hand-picked antags adds some non-destructive fun which prevents the round from being transferred into nuke 2 hours in.

I personally find that your general behavior has not improved much recently. You still don't seem to take the game on a very serious level. Just recently, you were weekbanned for drilling a hole into escape using a mech, and even yesterday I had to give you a warning for this gem in OOC: Given how I think you've still failed at showing the proper level of maturity required to play high-responsibility jobs, is there anything you can do to demonstrate to us that you would be up for the task? (And with actions, rather than words. Because the problem is, right now, your actions do not match the words you give us here.)

Repeated ignoring of the issue. She was ahelped on multiple occasions, to such a point that she was informed she'd be jobbanned if she didn't fix it. She didn't fix it after that. Thus, jobban. That is essentially it.

24 would still put you fresh out of med school/college. Given that you've already been banned for it, we're going to look towards this much more closely. A 24 year old character would likely not be very experienced with advanced medical procedure, nor could they perform complex surgeries. For science, I'm not quite sure, as that would put you at the age of a grad student or around. You're still expected to limit your character's knowledge - you can't be proficient in every field at 24. In favor of unbanning once more people weigh in.

Application accepted.

The idea of gambling was also brought up by Less. However, given that in-game credits have been completely replaced by transfer cards (basically checks), it makes the system nearly impossible to use. People can currently only transfer money from an account to another, meaning that bets cannot even be placed, and no money given to borgs - short of "giving out" money for free, the function serves no purpose. Perhaps a rework of the station's whole entertainment infrastructure could address that (there was a mention of poker or pool tables, at some point), but that seems a bit far off.

Again, simply trying to refocus, but the question is on whether these events should be allowed in game or not. What you're saying basically amounts to "punish griefers/bad players/everything ICly". Is this kind of roleplay, with these specific events, theme, and frequency, something we want to allow on our server, or an issue to be addressed OOCly?

With all due respect, this is a general truth which has already been stated and is not really related to the issue at hand. These groups' liberties end where other players' begin, and that's what we're trying to discuss here.

Title. This is the second issue we've had to deal with where a borg was printing money "because people love money!", and frankly, I can't see the use of the function. Like, wat. Why would NT design borgs that are able to fabricate currency? There's no situation in which they would ever realistically need to. So just putting it out there, as something to be considered.

There's been a lot of hostility being thrown from both sides in this thread so far (I'm not just targeting you), and everyone was warned to use restraint in the way they commented on the issue. You're fine, I'm just trying to make sure things don't blow up. This still goes for everyone else too. Be nice.