Re-enabling IPCs to be allowed into the Cult with changes.

[LanceLynxx]

You are utterly entirely wrong. That page you're looking at is under active development if you will look at the top of it. Positronic Brains do not conform to real world science as the actual concept is not possible. They may be coded to act a certain way, but they are completely, 100%, capable of diverging from that direction and forming an entirely new, unique personality, not unlike a person raised to think a certain way realising why they shouldn't. The only difference is they would base their divergency off of logical analysis instead of emotion. They are entirely sapient and entirely capable of going beyond their intended purpose. This of course, depends on the player and their character. There are IPCs who lean towards Robotic, but those are not the norm, stop treating like it is. Only Robots (The Cyborg Alt-title) are forced to run pre-programmed coding and not capable of free-thought, IPC coding and decisionmaking can be original and decided on by the IPC itself.

 

1- You said I was wrong a few times, without addressing the arguement at hand, sometimes just flat-out ignoring the logic, facts, and sources presented.

2- Good thing it is in development. How is this relevant? The last edit was October 2017. That's pretty recent.

3-Artificial brains are something very real (see: neural networks, machine learning, DARPA SyNAPSE Program, among others), the only "sci-fi" part of it is the maturity of the tech that we have in our lore, otherwise, the concept is not only possible in theory, it is being done in practice, albeit in initial stages.

4-They cannot form a 100% different personality. I quoted directly from the wiki, again

Similar to the Emotion Emulator, this allows synthetics to portray levels of personality often in conjunction with emotions. Whilst synthetics may develop personalities without one, they will be bland and normally will revolve around following laws/directives.

5-Logical analysis is used for problem-solving and task-handling. NOT for questioning their artificial morality, since, again, they cannot change the utilon values assigned upon their construction.

6-They are sapient, I agree. But that is not equal to sentient.

7-I'm not acting like "robotic IPC is the norm". Just looking for consistency in IPC lore and not handwaving "each player decides whatever", just like it is with other races. You have a lore to fit into, it's not just "muh human robot with soul because ghosts".

8-IPC coding cannot be decided by the IPC itself, that's an egregious statement. But I agree that they can perform their own decision-making, within their spectre of utilons, machine-learning processes, programming, etcetera.

[Chada1]

You are utterly entirely wrong. That page you're looking at is under active development if you will look at the top of it. Positronic Brains do not conform to real world science as the actual concept is not possible. They may be coded to act a certain way, but they are completely, 100%, capable of diverging from that direction and forming an entirely new, unique personality, not unlike a person raised to think a certain way realising why they shouldn't. The only difference is they would base their divergency off of logical analysis instead of emotion. They are entirely sapient and entirely capable of going beyond their intended purpose. This of course, depends on the player and their character. There are IPCs who lean towards Robotic, but those are not the norm, stop treating like it is. Only Robots (The Cyborg Alt-title) are forced to run pre-programmed coding and not capable of free-thought, IPC coding and decisionmaking can be original and decided on by the IPC itself.

 

1- You said I was wrong a few times, without addressing the arguement at hand, sometimes just flat-out ignoring the logic, facts, and sources presented.

2- Good thing it is in development. How is this relevant? The last edit was October 2017. That's pretty recent.

3-Artificial brains are something very real (see: neural networks, machine learning, DARPA SyNAPSE Program, among others), the only "sci-fi" part of it is the maturity of the tech that we have in our lore, otherwise, the concept is not only possible in theory, it is being done in practice, albeit in initial stages.

4-They cannot form a 100% different personality. I quoted directly from the wiki, again

Similar to the Emotion Emulator, this allows synthetics to portray levels of personality often in conjunction with emotions. Whilst synthetics may develop personalities without one, they will be bland and normally will revolve around following laws/directives.

5-Logical analysis is used for problem-solving and task-handling. NOT for questioning their artificial morality, since, again, they cannot change the utilon values assigned upon their construction.

6-They are sapient, I agree. But that is not equal to sentient.

7-I'm not acting like "robotic IPC is the norm". Just looking for consistency in IPC lore and not handwaving "each player decides whatever", just like it is with other races. You have a lore to fit into, it's not just "muh human robot with soul because ghosts".

8-IPC coding cannot be decided by the IPC itself, that's an egregious statement. But I agree that they can perform their own decision-making, within their spectre of utilons, machine-learning processes, programming, etcetera.

I'll skip #1.

2: That edit only added the 'In Active Development'.

3: Artificial brains in the modern world are not even an iota as close to what a Positronic Brain entails. If Positronic Brains were so simple, no person with any sense would've upgraded past Robotic Computing Circuits, as they do all of this as you lay it out and better.

4: Yes, they can, welcome to this quote.

Most AIs have extremely complex utility functions. In some cases, they are emergent, dynamic, or machine-generated; other AIs have utility functions written and designed by their creators. A robot or drone created by a hobbyist Roboticist would have a much simpler utility function than a central AI unit created by Hephaestus Industries. Most complex AIs seem to not be very aware of their utility functions the same way a human is not consciously aware of their morality, likely a symptom of their complexity and importance in the program’s decision-making.

4, Addendum: Which heavily implies many have Utilons not defined by their creators.

5: Logical analysis is used for whatever the AI decides to use it for, and that's not something you get to decide, it's not your character.

6: They are Sapient, and that is what most people mean when they say Sentient.

7: You Are acting like Robotic IPCs are the norm in the Lore. Let 'borgs be the streamlined nearly pure Robotic role, and stop trying to force IPCs into it. IPCs are allowed to alter their personality with experience. The utilon shift would merely be subconscious (IE: Done OOCly). It says so on the 'Synthetics' wiki page. All your points have been addressed and you're still incorrect. Being Robotic as an IPC is a sign of a good roleplayer, not a literal requirement for all IPCs. They vary! It's the entire niche for Shells to be human-like but slightly off, as an example. With your interpretation, that wouldn't even be possible.

Edited May 15, 2018 by Guest

[Butterrobber202]

I agree without dronz here, let out machine friends live outside the biological bubble.

[Pacmandevil]

Can we just leave IPCs out of the cult entirely? Make them enemies of the cult, they don't have blood, or souls to steal. They're just robots. Why do cult mechanics have to apply to everyone?

 

The cult isn't directly trying to give nar nar souls, they're trying to summon Nar'sie. And I wouldn't put it past an elder god to be able to corrupt a tin can to do his bidding. This could in fact be represented by a "corrupted" screen sprite.

[LanceLynxx]

That edit only added the 'In Active Development'.

Still irrelevant

Artificial brains in the modern world are not even an iota as close to what a Positronic Brain entails. If Positronic Brains were so simple, no person with any sense would've upgraded past Robotic Computing Circuits, as they do all of this as you lay it out and better.

That does not invalidate the point that the concept IS real and it is a REAL thing. Just because it's in its infancy, doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

Yes, they can, welcome to this quote.

Most AIs have extremely complex utility functions. In some cases, they are emergent, dynamic, or machine-generated; other AIs have utility functions written and designed by their creators. A robot or drone created by a hobbyist Roboticist would have a much simpler utility function than a central AI unit created by Hephaestus Industries. Most complex AIs seem to not be very aware of their utility functions the same way a human is not consciously aware of their morality, likely a symptom of their complexity and importance in the program’s decision-making.

Which heavily implies many have Utilons not defined by their creators.

 

This is valid for a CENTRAL AI level of processing, NOT an IPC. Therefore non applicable.

 

Logical analysis is used for whatever the AI decides to use it for, and that's not something you get to decide, it's not your character.

They are Sapient, and that is what most people mean when they say Sentient.

Wrong. The AI works within a set of rules and boundaries. It cannot handwave away rules to do whatever it wants. You know what we call that? Malf AI. And that's how it works for any race. You're not gonna have a Tajara speaking in first person just because a person wants to, because that's breaking the rules and boundaries of the race in the lore, thus, poor role play.

Furthermore, "sapient" and "sentient" are not interchangeable.

 

You Are acting like Robotic IPCs are the norm in the Lore. Let 'borgs be the streamlined nearly pure Robotic role, and stop trying to force IPCs into it.

IPCs are allowed to alter their personality with experience. The utilon shift would merely be subconscious (IE: Done OOCly). It says so on the 'Synthetics' wiki page. All your points have been addressed and you're still incorrect.

I'm saying that IPCs should act withing the constrain of their lore. How is that wrong?

And programming cannot "subconsciously change" unless that's just a handwavium.

Your points thus far have been all pretty much invalid.

[Chada1]

Artificial brains in the modern world are not even an iota as close to what a Positronic Brain entails. If Positronic Brains were so simple, no person with any sense would've upgraded past Robotic Computing Circuits, as they do all of this as you lay it out and better.

That does not invalidate the point that the concept IS real and it is a REAL thing. Just because it's in its infancy, doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

No, what it shows is you're trying to compare a literal robot level intelligence to an advanced future sapient being that is capable of complex thought and decisionmaking. AKA: The source of the problem. That is Beepsky that you're comparing to GladOS, as an analogy. IPCs do not work like that, it has no precedent for their function. You would only have a point when comparing them to Robots.

Yes, they can, welcome to this quote.

Most AIs have extremely complex utility functions. In some cases, they are emergent, dynamic, or machine-generated; other AIs have utility functions written and designed by their creators. A robot or drone created by a hobbyist Roboticist would have a much simpler utility function than a central AI unit created by Hephaestus Industries. Most complex AIs seem to not be very aware of their utility functions the same way a human is not consciously aware of their morality, likely a symptom of their complexity and importance in the program’s decision-making.

Which heavily implies many have Utilons not defined by their creators.

This is valid for a CENTRAL AI level of processing, NOT an IPC. Therefore non applicable.

This is two differing extremes. IPCs are closer to the latter than the former. Infact, some IPCs players play as central AIs who were given freedom.

Logical analysis is used for whatever the AI decides to use it for, and that's not something you get to decide, it's not your character.

They are Sapient, and that is what most people mean when they say Sentient.

Wrong. The AI works within a set of rules and boundaries. It cannot handwave away rules to do whatever it wants. You know what we call that? Malf AI. And that's how it works for any race. You're not gonna have a Tajara speaking in first person just because a person wants to, because that's breaking the rules and boundaries of the race in the lore, thus, poor role play.

The source of the problem is you have a serious misconception of the Lore. You are not breaking the rules by creating a character with a unique background and mannerisms that can respond to situations independently and in their own unique way-- you argue they are. And i'm telling you, you are downright incorrect. IPCs are not lawed, they are capable of free thought and responding to situations intelligently and in a non-scripted manner. They do not have to respond a situation the same way every time it happens, because they could recognise the last time they responded, their action ended in a non-favorable way. Something Robots cannot do. Stop shoehorning them into a limited 'borg-like position, they are not 'borgs.

Furthermore, "sapient" and "sentient" are not interchangeable.

Have you heard of the concept of loaded words? Sentient and Sapient are used interchangeably in unprofessional conversation, it's usually used to denote something of serious intelligence. For instance, people often say that Chimpanzees aren't sentient, what they really mean is sapient, because Chimpanzees are sentient.

You Are acting like Robotic IPCs are the norm in the Lore. Let 'borgs be the streamlined nearly pure Robotic role, and stop trying to force IPCs into it. IPCs are allowed to alter their personality with experience. The utilon shift would merely be subconscious (IE: Done OOCly). It says so on the 'Synthetics' wiki page. All your points have been addressed and you're still incorrect.

I'm saying that IPCs should act withing the constrain of their lore. How is that wrong? And programming cannot "subconsciously change" unless that's just a handwavium. Your points thus far have been all pretty much invalid.

 

None of my points have been invalid, you just refuse to accept them. I have showcased this. Whether you accept it or not, we'll have to agree to disagree. Stop trying to argue IPCs have a robots level of intelligence. They don't, that is a fact. The Synthetics page literally says their Utilons can be dynamic, they subconsciously change.

[Itanimulli]

The point here is that Nar does whatever it can to corrupt whatever can be corrupted so as to take over as many planes of existence as it can.

Unless any of you'd like to personally port Ravtar, and then have that be synth only, drones and all, don't argue for removing an entire species from a round type just because of your own ideas on whether or not IPCs have souls or sentience. It's already canon that they have both. That argument is hereby irrelevant.

Vamp and Ling are organic only simply because they are organic in nature. Why would an IPC succ blood, or succ genomes? Unless we're thinking of sticking a t-1000 in the lore, IPCs will have no reason to be a part of a biological conglomerate.

However, Nar is not strictly biological. It an it's constructs would fit more under the title of golem, with it's constructs, technically, being synthetic in nature in the first place. Literally, it pops in with juggernauts, artificers, and harvesters. All of which are technically synthetic. So the argument for Nar not using synths is also now null.

The only issue I've ever REALLY seen pop up is "Oh what about the emp runes?"

Well, it's not been a problem for me in the past, for a long time. What happens happens. When the cult hits critical mass and emp runes start getting spammed, it doesn't even matter anymore, because Nar is getting summoned soon anyways. Besides, it's also (Methinks) possible to code immunity to cult EMPs (Given that the IPC being affected is also cult), which would solve that problem right away.

As for blood runes, fuck it, call it alchemy. Nar power. Honestly, though, why would Nar be trying to invade via a research station? Why would Nar not already be here if it only takes like 8 cultists to summon them? Trying to say that the 'because magic' argument is shallow means that the person accusing it of being shallow hasn't put any real thought into what exactly is happening during a cult round.

Individuals with higher priorities (LI'd Heads of Staff; Lawed AI's; Lawed Borgs) all have a viable reason to be immune, because they'd follow what is literally hammered into them over all other things. Sidenote: It's not too hard to imagine that someone can code a nar-fication lawset for cultists to use on the AI/Borgs, that is summoned via the tome.

Finally, addressing the weird af argument about borgs having souls.

Cyborgs do. MMI.

Androids might. Positronic Brain, it'd really be up to the user's discretion.

Robots do not. Intelligence circuit.

[Kaed]

-stuff-

 

I like how you posit your opinions about design as if they are hard facts. Aside from certain interactions in various round types, many of which are purely mechanical/code based in nature, there is no evidence that ANYONE has a soul, ICly. That's what the purpose of faith is.

The rest of this is just more justification behind your support of this idea under the guise of delivering an irrefutable arguement.

Now, there is one part of your post I can get behind, though. Porting over the machine cult to this server. That feels a lot more like it would fit with IPCs being included than this shoehorned excuse for player inclusion.

But this is sort of off topic, because this thread is not about adding Ravtar.

[Itanimulli]

-stuff-

 

I like how you posit your opinions about design as if they are hard facts. Aside from certain interactions in various round types, many of which are purely mechanical/code based in nature, there is no evidence that ANYONE has a soul, ICly. That's what the purpose of faith is.

The rest of this is just more justification behind your support of this idea under the guise of delivering an irrefutable arguement.

Now, there is one part of your post I can get behind, though. Porting over the machine cult to this server. That feels a lot more like it would fit with IPCs being included than this shoehorned excuse for player inclusion.

But this is sort of off topic, because this thread is not about adding Ravtar.

 

Thank you for liking my opinions /s. Yes, the point is that it's the cult roundtype, so don't generalize. Even though again, we've all been told they have souls. If faith had a factor in those round-types, it's only for rp purposes. Nar is here, you got de soul now.

Yes, it's more justification because that's how damn arguments work. If I didn't have justification we all know you'd write it off as unjustified.

Finally, it's not off topic. It's cult. It's the other cult. I'm proposing that either you guys come up with a viable solution to atone for completely removing a species from a MASS INCLUSION roundtype (not at all like malf, which is more or less geared towards the station AI gaining sentience/alternate purpose and then taking over just the station), just leave IPCs as-is, or find a way to correctly code a workaround.

Obviously, despite the detriments other cultists with EMP runes/talismans provide, people who play IPCs still want to play in cult rounds. So, er, talk to those people.

[Saudus]

My god this conversation is getting loaded and frankly quite stupid.

Being able to ghost/soul stoned/etc is not proof of a soul. They are god damn game mechanics. I guess it is also canon that people can only make 90/180 degree turns. I guess it is canon that white cloudy bubbles appear over people when they speak.

IPC/AI/Cyborgs/etc can't be interfered with by nar-sie because they are synthetic? Sure they can be, if we want them to, because we control the lore and it is fucking magic.

Wiki page is "in developement"? Doesn't make it non canon lore. Just that it might be changed or removed.

Positronic brains don't conform to real world science because they are impossible? Since when are positronic brains magical? And why do you think the concept is impossible? Worst case just recreate a human brain neuron by neuron. A bitch to execute in terms of practicality and current technology, but not impossible as a concept.

This is a gameplay suggestion, not a lore thread, treat it like that?

[Chada1]

My god this conversation is getting loaded and frankly quite stupid.

Being able to ghost/soul stoned/etc is not proof of a soul. They are god damn game mechanics. I guess it is also canon that people can only make 90/180 degree turns. I guess it is canon that white cloudy bubbles appear over people when they speak.

IPC/AI/Cyborgs/etc can't be interfered with by nar-sie because they are synthetic? Sure they can be, if we want them to, because we control the lore and it is fucking magic.

Wiki page is "in developement"? Doesn't make it non canon lore. Just that it might be changed or removed.

Positronic brains don't conform to real world science because they are impossible? Since when are positronic brains magical? And why do you think the concept is impossible? Worst case just recreate a human brain neuron by neuron. A bitch to execute in terms of practicality and current technology, but not impossible as a concept.

This is a gameplay suggestion, not a lore thread, treat it like that?

Like it or not, Being able to be soul stoned is implying the being has a soul. The item being called a soul stone has that effect. This is only a valid argument against people arguing 'JUST A ROBOT!' for why to exclude them, as it was intentionally left in by the recent coder. Also, the point I was making is that the page could be inconsistent with many others, and it is. Positronic Brains do defy the laws of physics, as explained on the wiki, and that's okay. It's sci-fantasy, and I only used that as an argument because they were arguing 'Realism'. As for why it's derailed, most people are ignoring the gameplay aspects and going for Lore arguments, so it became a Lore argument.

Edited May 15, 2018 by Guest

[Itanimulli]

This is a gameplay suggestion, not a lore thread, treat it like that?

 

With this in mind, keep IPCs in cult, because there is only a small reason, game-play wise, to remove them. EMP talismans will also effect anyone with prosthetic limbs. If they have a mechanical heart, it will outright kill them.

I.E. there's no difference, gameplay-wise, between a human, tajara, skrell, unathi, or IPC who gets EMP'd if any of them have the full prosthetic kit. If an EMP happens, they all suffer.

[Kaed]

I have an idea, after some thought for an alternative to shoehorning IPCs into the blood cult

What if we ported in Ravtar to some extent (probably not the whole thing, because they I think there's some mechanics they have that don't quite work here, like the Ark spawning), and IPC can both start as a member of the cult and be converted to it.

And we'll have a sort of Narnar vs Ravtar thing

Edited May 15, 2018 by Guest

[LanceLynxx]

This is a gameplay suggestion, not a lore thread, treat it like that?

 

It's a problem when gameplay and lore don't get along. Especially when it's something blatant like being an organic being vs being a machine, in a setting that deals with gods, faith, and religion.

Otherwise synths would just be reskinned humans.

[Itanimulli]

This is a gameplay suggestion, not a lore thread, treat it like that?

 

It's a problem when gameplay and lore don't get along. Especially when it's something blatant like being an organic being vs being a machine, in a setting that deals with gods, faith, and religion.

Otherwise synths would just be reskinned humans.

 

Prove that narsie is organic.

[Kaed]

Prove that narsie is organic.

 

Prove that Nar'sie has any interest in non-organic life or is capable of changing it.

This isn't really an argument anymore than 'prove that god doesn't exist' is an argument for there being god.

This topic is getting really tangential... maybe we should be discussing a way to make everyone happy instead of force our opinions on each other. I present, again, the Ravtar vs Nar'sie idea.

[Itanimulli]

Prove that narsie is organic.

 

Prove that Nar'sie has any interest in non-organic life or is capable of changing it.

This isn't really an argument anymore than 'prove that god doesn't exist' is an argument for there being god.

This topic is getting really tangential... maybe we should be discussing a way to make everyone happy instead of force our opinions on each other. I present, again, the Ravtar vs Nar'sie idea.

Kek. Narsie is trying to invade a space station that is primarily composed of mechanical parts. It then changes all of those parts. It then creates non-organic constructs. Why would Narsie not corrupt anything it can, if when summoned, it corrupts anything it can?

[LanceLynxx]

Prove that narsie is organic.

 

How is this relevant? You're arguing for the sake of arguing. There is no point to be made here.

But even then, consider the mode is Blood Cult, with themes such as souls, ressurections, sacrifices, usage of blood and consumption thereof, arcane and occult magic, mysterious powers of evil.

All atributes of emotional, spiritual beings, not machines subject to logic and reason.

[Itanimulli]

Prove that narsie is organic.

 

How is this relevant? You're arguing for the sake of arguing. There is no point to be made here.

But even then, consider the mode is Blood Cult, with themes such as souls, ressurections, sacrifices, usage of blood and consumption thereof, arcane and occult magic, mysterious powers of evil.

All atributes of emotional, spiritual beings, not machines subject to logic and reason.

 

Magic.

[LanceLynxx]

Magic.

The gathering

[Itanimulli]

Magic.

The gathering

 

tu shaylamaymay

Point still stands. Magic beats robots. Uh, uh. Turn IPCs into hoomans.

[Saudus]

It's a problem when gameplay and lore don't get along. Especially when it's something blatant like being an organic being vs being a machine, in a setting that deals with gods, faith, and religion.

Otherwise synths would just be reskinned humans.

 

Prove that narsie is organic.

 

This is why this discussion is stupid in a nutshell. First off, I actually agree with LanceLynxx.

That aside, this "prove X" or "It is Y because lore says Z" or "Game play feature U demonstrates that lore V is correct" arguing (which really is present on both sides) is quite silly. There quite literally is no proving any of these things and just like Kaed said,

This topic is getting really tangential... maybe we should be discussing a way to make everyone happy instead of force our opinions on each other.

[Guest Marlon Phoenix]

Lore supports mechanics. That doesnt mean the argument is over; but dont weaponize lore to shut down the other side please.

[Itanimulli]

It's a problem when gameplay and lore don't get along. Especially when it's something blatant like being an organic being vs being a machine, in a setting that deals with gods, faith, and religion.

Otherwise synths would just be reskinned humans.

 

Prove that narsie is organic.

 

This is why this discussion is stupid in a nutshell. First off, I actually agree with LanceLynxx.

That aside, this "prove X" or "It is Y because lore says Z" or "Game play feature U demonstrates that lore V is correct" arguing (which really is present on both sides) is quite silly. There quite literally is no proving any of these things and just like Kaed said,

This topic is getting really tangential... maybe we should be discussing a way to make everyone happy instead of force our opinions on each other.

 

This entire thing started because one guy thought IPCs shouldn't be in cult and that everyone should agree with the results of that opinion.

[Hackie]

Personally, I don't care much for the lore explanation. It can always be handwaved and changed considering the ambiguous nature of Nar'sie. I don't mind IPCs being crippled such as the OP suggested. You can still help the cult without cult spells. It seems doable and would still include them in the cult. It just isn't going to be fun if you completely strip their ability to interact with cult. It will pretty much shoehorn the cult into killing/disabling them. There's a difference imo between adding depth to a species and completely excluding them from a cooperative antag type.