Ixnay on the Oyalty-lay

[EvilBrage]

So, a particularly vicious wizard round followed by a body-swap into a captain's body posed a question: does the loyalty implant affect the wizard? Seeing as I received no special message about it (and that I was a friggin' wizard) I decided that it did not, after some conferring with the online admungs at the time. The round wore on and the implant question came up over and over, to which I suddenly asked myself: Why do we have loyalty implants? They were an effective de-revving agent back in the days where flashes were used to convert people to the revolution, but now, they're primarily used as a tool to force antagonists to give up their evil games. Removing conflict should not be so easy. Why permabrig someone when you could, with a quick dash of paperwork (or not) stick someone with a needle and be 100% guaranteed that they are now entirely loyal to NanoTrasen?

As the server evolves from the pre-established, implied SS13 lore that NanoTrasen is the sole power in its sector, I believe it would fit along nicely with our Sol Government to remove these sorts of implants entirely so these stories can continue. The captain and head of security would still be barred from any sort of antag assignment, of course - but this could easily be attributed to rigorous polygraphs, background checks, investigative details, et cetera before the start of a shift. The only change is that the heads of staff don't have loyalty implants to stick people with.

Another idea is to make them illegal. Maybe they could still be obtained from a compliant quartermaster, with the provision that they are very clearly illegal. Thoughts?

[K0NFL1QT]

One of the uses of a loyalty implants is that they can be stuck in people who can then be released to continue roleplay, instead of facing brig time alone, if they're compliant. Removing them means more people will be locked up without another responsible recourse.

Personally, I think all heads of staff should have mandatory loyalty implants.

[EvilBrage]

Personally, I think all heads of staff should have mandatory loyalty implants.

 

Why not the entire crew, at that rate, to provide unwavering loyalty? Disqualifying someone as an antagonist shouldn't be as easy as putting on a SecHUD and seeing a little green box in the corner.

[Valkrae]

I have to agree with Brage here. I've found myself thinking about loyalty implants, and how much easier it would be to stick a loyalty implant in every nuke ops/cultist and make them spill the beans about their prospective friends.

[Susan]

Except removing conflict is already incredibly easy.

I'd say the loyalty implant should have applied to you. Let's figure out why they're not half as bad as you make them out to be. In order for you to be implanted, you have to be... what? Arrested. Captured by security. You have to be in custody, and at that point if they're considering sticking you with a loyalty implant your conflict is already removed. You'll be permabrigged if they don't. It's over. You're done. There is no more conflict being generated by you. Security usually sticks people with loyalty implants either to let them out for some god forsaken reason without a permanent sentence or to make them spill the beans and then let them out on a non-permanent sentence.

By the time you're getting an implant you're in custody and will more likely than not spend the round in the permawing otherwise. Removing conflict is easy. You don't need loyalty implants to do that, all you need is a pair of cuffs and a taser gun.

[Frances]

Sue has it right. Loyalty implanting a criminal does require a modicum of paperwork and procedure, and is generally seen as unethical and an extreme recourse, which prevents it from happening to every single person that gets arrested.

This also makes interrogation (whether through legal or "enhanced" procedures) a viable first recourse, thus leading to valuable prisoner-RP (well, if you're into that). If the person still opposes you after that, there's not much else that will happen through a short 2-3 hour round.

I think a more interesting question is when loyalty implants can actually be used well on prisoners. Because while I understand the OOC mindset of wanting to keep people into the game as much as possible, there's nothing ICly that warrants using them to "release" people unless you absolutely need them for something. For example, a syndicate bomber you want to force to turn in his or her collaborators, or a rogue engineer who set the singularity to blow you need to get to fix it. And these are fairly niche situations that happen rarely, most people who commit permabrig crimes just end up in the permabrig for the round.

[EvilBrage]

I disagree, Sue. It was a wizard who had transferred into the mind of someone who already had a loyalty implant, not being implanted with a new one. Besides, magic.

I also disagree that permabrigging is an end-all to conflict - one random server event in particular is even geared towards allowing those in the permabrig a chance at escape. There's also my favored method of placing items to aid in my escape into the permabrig before I'm even sent there, I've even made an entire false section of hallway to lead me right to an escape route from the external portion of the permabrig once. I just find it silly that in-game, we're able to resist the influence of dark gods but resisting a tiny implant in your brain that makes you go against what you believe is impossible. We all know that paperwork isn't followed 100%, and in this case, who will be there to hold the implanting individual responsible?

We already know players will retcon anything they don't like that happens to their character. Even on the low off-chance they get arrested for illegally implanting someone? No biggie - retcon - and you're back as a captain again the next round. What do you get in return? Well, if the person you've implanted is part of any sort of team, they're apparently obligated to tell you what they know about their friends and what they've been doing. A single implant can rip apart those carefully laid plans that we extended the round timer for; alternatively, an entire team of revolutionaries. At least cultists lose their memories of Nar'sie and the cult.

If I don't want to be implanted, it seems that I have to choose between killing everyone with armory access, or not RPing villainous things with my victims from fear of being caught. Mind you - being caught can be fun, which is why I intentionally make mistakes when I feel a round is going slowly and I'm doing some t8ring, but rather than being able to stoically sit in the permabrig and refuse to give up my employers, they can just jab an implant in me and I'll suddenly spill my guts.

[Lady_of_Ravens]

For wizards... yeah, the loyalty implant should probably apply. Body switching is dangerous if you don't know what you're getting into.

For syndie agents... these guys are pretty hardcore. Why not give them an implant that kills them if you loyalty implant them... or if you try to remove it?

Revs and cultists can suck it, though... they're able to recruit new people.

[Hackie]

Brage, I'm with you on this but, the implant doesn't need to be gutted. The implant could use a few tweaks, adjust it a bit, have some firm, solid, guidelines on what entails and etc. Also, side note, loyalty implants do not apply to Wizards because they're not magi, just heavily augmented (from what I believe).

[Hackie]

I have to agree with Brage here. I've found myself thinking about loyalty implants, and how much easier it would be to stick a loyalty implant in every nuke ops/cultist and make them spill the beans about their prospective friends.

Also, implants are dangerous because anything that 'changes' how the brain works in such a major way can have unforeseen consequences. In addition, this isn't NT's main super duper research station so implanting everyone and their mother isn't necessary.

[Lady_of_Ravens]

Really? I thought the space wizards were space wizards with spells they learn out of a book and magical clothes and all the nonsense that entails. Similar to the space vampires (who don't do so well in space).

I know a lot of people play space wizards as augmented, or being from the future, or any of a variety of different things... and people not playing as space wizards or chaplains pretty much always assume there's a technological reason for their powers 'cause nobody believes in space magic. But space magic is real, just ask the cult of Nar'Sie.