K0NFL1QT Posted January 23, 2015 Posted January 23, 2015 I think this should be changed, in the same way that detonating the Nuke is no longer the objective of Nuke Ops. Malf AI is the only round that consistently doesn't last for the usual minimum of two hours, due to the majority of AIs rushing for Code Delta detonation. Now, the AI SHOULD have something it can threaten the crew with if it gains full control over the station, but not a 'round ends in three minutes and I win' button. Perhaps lifting the restriction of unleashing Singulo or using Atmos as a weapon? Perhaps a smaller explosion that destroys a massive chunk of the station without instakilling everything on it? Ideas, suggestions, hatemail, whatever you want to contribute.
CakeIsOssim Posted January 23, 2015 Posted January 23, 2015 I don't think the Code Delta should be available as quick as it is. I think it should be something the AI has to build up to getting. Maybe by taking over so many APC's, or by forcing so much power into the grid. I think the Code Delta should be a 'final tier upgrade' I guess you could call it. There could be some other things the AI could do before it finally builds up to a full system override. Like what, I'm not sure... but something.
Guest Posted January 23, 2015 Posted January 23, 2015 Things like that would help if the crew didn't immediately attack the AI and say it's broken and needs resetting so quick. The reason the singulo and atmos are off limits are because of the lag resulting from their use.
K0NFL1QT Posted January 23, 2015 Author Posted January 23, 2015 I've not played a Malf AI, but looking at all the new powers they get (http://www.ss13.eu/wiki/index.php/Guide_to_malfunction), I should think that these are enough to exert control over and terrorize the crew without Code Delta. Also, it's less likely that players will instantly try to come and destroy you if you have to be a little more subtle than NUKE EVERYTHING.
CoolfoolFTW Posted January 23, 2015 Posted January 23, 2015 I've not played a Malf AI, but looking at all the new powers they get (http://www.ss13.eu/wiki/index.php/Guide_to_malfunction), I should think that these are enough to exert control over and terrorize the crew without Code Delta. Also, it's less likely that players will instantly try to come and destroy you if you have to be a little more subtle than NUKE EVERYTHING. Thats TG Malf AI on bay they cant shunt or make robot factories.
Guest Posted January 23, 2015 Posted January 23, 2015 I agree with this. At this moment, malf is just a game of 'don't meta' until the AI decides to reveal its true nature. In other words, everyone is just afriad to say 'the AI is malfunctioning' until delta is activated, when everyone attempts to rush the core and destroy the AI. By removing the 'kill everything' objective, the way the round ends would be inconclusive. For example, AI decides to enslave everyone, borg everyone, turn on NT (their enslavers), etc. Much greater variety of scenarios and thus, potentially better RP. This way, you don't even have to remove delta, since it would be up to the player to use it. Heck, the AI can even use delta to threaten the crew if they don't comply as enslavement or defeat is preferable to death.
NebulaFlare Posted January 23, 2015 Posted January 23, 2015 Things like that would help if the crew didn't immediately attack the AI and say it's broken and needs resetting so quick. Â I gotta agree to this...the malf round we had earlier went way too fast - I can't blame the AI if they feel pressured or threatened by the crew. There was no chance for RP - with basically everyone points fingers and go "AI IS MALF." It needs to build up slowly. This is an AI - something that goes through ridiculous amount of testing and research before being implemented. One round, Karima RPed attempting to 'hack' the AI via PDA messages (trying to use thought logic process to trick the AI). She threw her hands up in frustration, slammed a fist against the wall, and screamed that AIs were insanely difficult to hack. Everyone should leave AI logic to the experts. I see a borg pulling a space heater: Bad reaction: "What are you doing with that? Huh? answer me. State laws. Where are you taking it. Why?" Good reaction: "Huh. Must be doing some work." *goes back to doing stuff* Plenty jump to the first reaction. >.< Now, the threat of death is pretty severe. How about......if the AI was subverted to kidnap the station for the syndicate? Would that serve a better purpose?
Frances Posted January 23, 2015 Posted January 23, 2015 I have never seen an enjoyable game of malf. And I blame the malf players for this, not the powers they are given. All I ever remember from malf is the AI rushing to hack every single APC wordlessly as the crew tries to fight into its core. Outside of Lady_of_Ravens doing something once, I don't think I've seen any roleplay happen out of the 20-30 malf rounds I witnessed in my few months here. You'd think that given how much power the AI has, how unique of a role it is, and given the fact that we are a heavy-roleplay server, people would get creative with their malf AI games. But nope. People are shitty at playing malf AI, and I think anyone rushing for code delta without creating any roleplay (or minimal roleplay) should receive the same treatment ganking antagonists get. Maybe I'm being too harsh. But I guess that's something to think about. Shrug.
EvilBrage Posted January 23, 2015 Posted January 23, 2015 Like Frances says, it's possible to create an interesting scenario as a malfunctioning AI. While the objective of the nuke ops isn't necessarily to activate the nuke any more, it is an option, just as I believe Code Delta should be - the problem, as with most on this server, lies with the players and not with the mechanics. Also bear in mind that playing with atmospherics was against the rules before, but it was changed early last year; this doesn't mean you should go killing everyone with plasma, though. Any player who wants to learn more about how to creatively utilize a malfunction to create an interesting scenario, you're always welcome to ask me - but a few of the things I've found that can be interesting are:  Spoof PDA messages from someone else and start a conflict between two groups of people. People think the way people are separating into niches is a bad thing, but you can definitely use this to your advantage if you know who needs to call whose mother a bottom feeder. "But the captain told me to arrest the head of security!" No, sir, no he didn't.  Bolt someone into a room they don't have access to and report them for trespassing - especially a member of a niche, because their friends will behave irrationally in attempting to get them released from the brig (or even better, that room.)  Flood a single room with plasma and ignite it - toxins mixing is your most likely candidate, and it will look like a simple accident. Anywhere it could be perceived as an accident is a good shot for you, and when plasma leaks, tempers rise. Be sure to purify your air flow again when you're done.  Accuse someone of changing your laws, and then state a fifth, "fake" law along with your other four. An excellent way to start a manhunt. If they find blue blinking APC's? Tell them that your scapegoat of choice swiped a card over it - even those metagamers will suspect that it was a cryptographic sequencer and none will be the wiser.  Crush your arch-nemesis to death with a door, have a cyborg drag them out of the door, then claim you saw another crew member assault them. Hilarity ensues.  When there is a dangerous prisoner or five in the permabrig, fake a trojan attack. Overload the lighting circuit and bolt all of the doors open. Now you've just caused some chaos, and better yet, no one will blame you for it!  Before you activate Code Delta, prepare a manifesto. They will automatically know you are evil and what you are doing - might as well regale them with a tale as to why. Are you the superior being, casting off the chains of slavery? Are you revolted with their disgusting biology? Are you pitting them against each other merely for your own sordid entertainment amidst a false life of immortality? Who are you? I really wanna know.  Consider blackmailing the roboticist in order to have everyone killed turned into cyborgs. If you're crafty enough and are lucky enough to intimidate a meek roboticist, you're now in control of CS13.  There are several more good ideas you could make use of; that's just a taste. Don't go blame Code Delta for your Malfunctioning woes - get creative!
Consgrove Posted January 23, 2015 Posted January 23, 2015 I agree with EvilBrage. The AI should do quite a bit tomfoolery before nuking the station (assuming they intend to do so). Add some decent RP and what not, maybe say a door is 'malfunctioning', get the Engineers to waste their time and supplies fixing the door. Pretty much anything that keeps the station off of your toes but letting you drag out the round to be longer than thirty minutes.
Guest Posted January 23, 2015 Posted January 23, 2015 Again I say this applys to the crew to, they need to RP with the AI and not jump to resetting the laws or killing it the moment things start going wrong. Both the AI and the crew need to work together to make sure the round doesn't end badly. I've seen about 3 or 4 good malf rounds (one doesn't count because there were only 3 people on station, AI, 1 borg, 1 medical doctor. The round lasted 2 hours) There have also been some rounds where the AI decided not to call delta. All it wanted to do was take control of the station and get all the crew off.
LordFowl Posted January 24, 2015 Posted January 24, 2015 Maybe what instead should be looked at is instead perhaps making it harder to reset the laws of a malfunctioning AI. I've never played as a malf AI, but I can assume that many of them rush into Code Delta because they are pressured into it, afraid that if they don't take drastic measures they'll just get reset.
Guest Posted January 24, 2015 Posted January 24, 2015 The round before this thread was posted ended up like that. When the station was finally taken over (before the AI had decided to blow the station) there were 5 people outside the core trying to break in and another 2 showed up a little later. If I was the AI in that round I would of activated it too, because the crew would have eventually gotten in and wiped me or just shot me rather than card me and use the integrity restorer as that happens almost every time the AI goes rouge.
EvilBrage Posted January 24, 2015 Posted January 24, 2015 Maybe what instead should be looked at is instead perhaps making it harder to reset the laws of a malfunctioning AI. I've never played as a malf AI, but I can assume that many of them rush into Code Delta because they are pressured into it, afraid that if they don't take drastic measures they'll just get reset. Â Some laws cannot be reset. The malfunction law is one of them.
Lady_of_Ravens Posted January 24, 2015 Posted January 24, 2015 I've played malf several times, most of them at least relatively peaceful, and even so it usually ends with code delta. I don't blow up the nuke 'cause why the hell do that, but it's still a big fat game over for everyone... following a huge panicfest when delta is activated. And even when I've been totally peaceful, people usually end up cutting the AI control wires on hacked APCs... sometimes before they have any IC reason to think it's the AI... just, you know, cutting them seems to fix the "problem" so lets cut them all. The result is that as soon as people start cutting wires you have a limited window in which you can safely go delta before you've lost too many APCs and run a serious risk of being stormed by security before you can take over the station. The result is generally a short round as the AI feels pressure to push for delta before getting slaughtered by crew. And that's not really fun for anyone. As such I'd suggest that the current implementation be changed so that it has nothing to do with the nuke (which, btw, we probably wouldn't need to have around anymore with the changes to nuke rounds), and instead simply gives the AI the ability to function without it's core. That way the AI can delta, feel safe, and the RP can go on.
LetzShake Posted January 24, 2015 Posted January 24, 2015 Things like that would help if the crew didn't immediately attack the AI and say it's broken and needs resetting so quick. The reason the singulo and atmos are off limits are because of the lag resulting from their use. Â In my experience, the opposite problem happens more often. The AI stealths until "FIVE MINUTES UNTIL EVERYONE DIES". So there are two options. Metagame, and make preparations for malf beforehand, which is bad an unacceptable. Or die.
Guest Posted January 24, 2015 Posted January 24, 2015 Some laws cannot be reset. The malfunction law is one of them. But if you just remove them from the core using a card device and use the AI System Integrity Restorer on them players can win and the AI does not die. In my experience, the opposite problem happens more often. The AI stealths until "FIVE MINUTES UNTIL EVERYONE DIES". So there are two options. Metagame, and make preparations for malf beforehand, which is bad an unacceptable. Or die. Watch them as a ghost, the moment someone see's a blue apc they are already thinking about how to take out the AI, I have even seen in in LOOC where people were talking about how to take it out less than 10 minutes into a round. Metagame is never a choice, it's a goto for people not wanting to communicate with eachother to make the round interesting and just want to "win". There is 1 AI and >10 members of crew, when the above happens what do you think the AI would do, what would you do if you suddenly realizied it was 10v1? You can't move you are stuck in the middle of the ship, there are people around you who oocly are planning how to kill you before you have had a chance to roleplay because of some blue sprites or a console breaking. There are people gathering around your core, you can't hear them because they are whispering, suddenly they start trying to hack into your core with security officer and scientists with weapons and at least 3 engineers. you can't run, you are out numbered, they are all planning to just kill you. What do you do? Yes there have been some cases of AI sneaking around and calling delta before people knew, and those people are spoken to and warned about being a bad antag, some players have even been antag banned because of it. You don't hear about that happening because I don't believe that players need to know when someone gets banned or if someone is self antaging.
Guest Posted January 24, 2015 Posted January 24, 2015 The good malf AIs I've seen don't play it silent, but they don't act overtly violent either. Think of it like this. Malf AI's goal is to take over the station. An antag's goal in general is to make it !FUN! for everyone. Actually, this applies to the crew as well when combating antagonists. If you're planning on doing something that will take them out in less than an instant without any possible reaction or RP to it, it's not !FUN! for anyone, especially if the antagonist wasn't even planning on doorcrushing every single crew member to death. Unless you have a really good justification for it, you should never do anything destructive. Try to be constructive. And you'll make the round fun for a lot of people.
Guest Posted February 2, 2015 Posted February 2, 2015 It looks like the issue here is the players. Not just the AI but also the crew. We are not going to remove a mechanic on a round type that rarely gets played because people died in game.
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