[Resolved] Player complaint - LordRaven001

[ZetaGundumb]

On the instruction of moderator ReadThisNamePlz, Bauser is making this player complaint through my account as a proxy. I am not involved, all writing is his, I am only posting it for him.

 

BYOND Key: Bauser
Player Byond Key: LordRaven001

Game ID: The round BEFORE Game ID bXE-dtEI (I took this ID at 12-4-2018 5:30PM EST) (That ID might have a lowercase L at the end instead of a capital I, I couldn't really tell)
Approximate Date/Time: December 4, 2018, ~3-5PM EST

Staff involved: N/A
Did you attempt to adminhelp the issue at the time? If so, what was the known action taken by administration/moderation? No. I didn't

Reason for complaint: I have two primary complaints.
1) Detective Zer-Qin Ming'Yelx (played by LordRaven001) spent the entire round acting like a Head of Security, ordering officers around in a tactical capacity and justifying it by saying it was all "part of his investigation." In reality, it came across as a bloodthirsty manhunt to the exclusion of any RP outside his circle of soldiers.

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2) Despite this, he made active efforts to isolate both the cadet members of security, Adrien Major (played by me (Bauser)) and Brock Harkoni, away from this gameplay. He didn't share a single detail of his security operation, which became a problem when Major happened upon one of his suspects by chance. Major, seeing that the individual appeared wounded, moved to take the suspect to the medical bay, only to be intercepted by detective Ming and chastised for doing what was the CORRECT thing to do considering that Major had no knowledge of the detective's operation. Detective Ming made it clear that the cadets were expressly forbidden from having any involvement in the security work of that round.

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And there is plenty of evidence for both of those claims. He felt in-charge enough to make decisions about what alert level the station should be on...

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And he felt in-charge enough to subvert the ACTUAL command.

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Immediately after the CMO made that announcement, Ming went on the public radio to assure everyone that there was no real danger, and assure me personally that he was right to spin this peaceful falsehood because he didn't want to spook the suspects in his investigation.

When I woke up from SSD (my power went out) and discovered someone had forced a cigarette into my mouth, I tried to bring it up over radio... But his control of the department was thorough enough that he didn't even want to let me talk, for fear it would jeopardize whatever he was doing.

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Obviously, I had no idea why he wanted me to stop talking, since he never shared any information at all with me. I wasn't even informed that he was running any cohesive security operation until late in the round, when I accidentally bumped into him in the middle of it. Before then, all I knew was he was ordering officers around.

In total, playing with him was actively detrimental to my experience at every single turn. It's okay to have an asshole character, but you can only get away with it if you're an asshole character who generates RP for the people you antagonize - and LordRaven's detective did nothing for me except push me out of the round and then act like a monumental jerk when I tried to participate. And even despite all this, I would be willing to forgive this poor quality of play if he had at least shown some tiny bit of remorse for how it totally screwed me. But instead, when I told him of my disappointment after the round, he totally didn't care at all, telling multiple people "I'm not goint to include cadets on a homicide investigation." I said I interpreted this as "so you purposefully hung the cadets up to dry" and he verified that interpretation - "yes."

Even bothering to tell us who might be worth steering clear of, to AVOID hindering his investigation, was affirmatively too much for LordRaven to share.

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LanceLynxx asked why I was complaining, and LordRaven confidently asserted I was just butthurt about being talked down to in-game, as seen here

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But this statement is ridiculous because how the hell am I supposed to protect his investigation if he doesn't even give me rudimentary information about what or where it is or who it involves? He tells me literally nothing about it, then goes off on me for trying to take someone to medical. He says I fucked up his investigation with back-talking, when I didn't even know what he was investigating, or where, or why, specifically because he FORBID me from knowing. And I didn't even back-talk him until after he had his suspect, so the idea that I ruined his master plan is nonsense. His response to my grievances were nothing but belittling B.S.

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He accuses me of trying to be gung-ho and "get in the middle of everything," but his reasoning is flatly ridiculous because, while he SAYS what I should be doing is ''being quiet and absorbing information,'' he showed multiple times that he forbid any information from reaching us. So... his operating philosophy is a complete sham. All of these logs should paint an accurate picture of LordRaven001 as a commando detective who thinks he's a head of security and doesn't care who has fun in the process of his manhunt. It exemplifies the worst qualities of security players. If you're an asshole without generating RP to the person you're an asshole to, that's not having an asshole character - that's just being an asshole. I'm sure the round was plenty fun for everyone he decided was allowed to participate.

[Resilynn]

Hi!  Weighing in as the only member of command that round.

I don't take issue with raven not telling me things.  He said that he kept a lot from me that round and while, sure, ICly, that's not very by the books, it was entirely IC and made sense.

I do have issues with a general playstyle of exclusion.  I made that announcement for a very specific reason (and you'll note, did not mention the murder case).  Security and command, I believe, have an obligation to allow the rest of the crew to participate in rounds.  That can just mean updating them, just giving their characters the ability to go 'oh shit, a thing is happening!  How does my chef respond, do they worry, do they cook a bunch of comfort food'-'.  There are ways to do subversion without sacrificing participation, for example, making false leads very public.  I've seen a few HoS's do this and it works wonderfully, it allows people to get more invested.  Nothing annoys me more than security and command deciding the best way to handle an antag is to make sure the crew knows absolutely nothing about the conflict. 

Moreover, and let me emphasize how incredibly strongly I believe this, learning roles are not a label we slap onto people to identify them as useless.  Deciding a cadet, or a lab assistant, or a medical resident, etc. is useless and giving them nothing to do as a result is problematic for a few reasons.  Primarily, they take those roles to learn and you're preventing them from learning anything.  I ask my residents every round what they're interested in learning and tailor specific training around their requests to get them ready to play a doctor.  I'm not saying you have to go that far, you're not a head of staff, but don't actively exclude them.  All you're accomplishing is setting a precedent where people who want to learn will realize they can't learn by taking learning roles.  If you take cadet and get told nothing concerns you, you're going to start taking officer so you can learn, and then we get issues with departments full of people who have no idea what they're doing and a ton of responsibility, with no IC reason to not have the skills demanded of them.  This is how we get surgeons who accidentally decapitate people and security officers to instantly stun baton nonviolent criminals.

If you are going to present yourself as a leader in rounds like this, which I have absolutely no issue with, you need to act like a leader, and frankly, that comes with OOC responsibilities.  There is a reason the whitelist apps ask about OOC responsibilities.  You can be a problematic leader ICly, obviously.  You can be an asshole, you can be frustrating to work with and annoying, you can be incompetent, and all those IC things, but you can't steal round participation from people, which I see as an OOC issue.

I'm not sure I see any of your playstyle in this instance as rule breaking, but I encourage you to think about the kind of server culture you are perpetuating if you are forcing people out of those learning roles.

 

[tbear13]

Me and Synth will be taking the complaint. I'd like to hear your side of this, @LordRaven001

[LordRaven001]

On 12/4/2018 at 10:35 PM, ZetaGundumb said:

Reason for complaint: I have two primary complaints.
1) Detective Zer-Qin Ming'Yelx (played by LordRaven001) spent the entire round acting like a Head of Security, ordering officers around in a tactical capacity and justifying it by saying it was all "part of his investigation." In reality, it came across as a bloodthirsty manhunt to the exclusion of any RP outside his circle of soldiers.

Detectives have full authority to request resources, and or requisition men in the event of an Investigation, they could have refused and that would be that, I did not order them, I asked them and they complied. This "Bloodthirsty Manhunt" involved no blood, and in fact was tactically planned with, every security officer, and the warden. The Chief Medical Officer, the only member of command, was also given information on a need to know basis, as I had no way of contacting him confidentially, and my Skrellian is a cop from Olympia and does't like relying on PDA messages to deliver confidential information.  I had been receiving PDA messages and relaying them on a need to know basis as we didn't want to spook the individual who was already shown to be psychologically unstable. E

Everyone but Adrien Major was informed, Brock Harkoni, the other Security Cadet, was allowed to assist in the investigation, as he had proven to be a reliable Cadet, and did so by providing cover while in the bar and while I was speaking with Cassidy Hendricks. This was for the simple reason that my detective character has interacted with Adrien Major before, and they have been proven to be unreliable in maintaining information security.

They have also been proven to be unreliable in following simple requests during high stress environments, instead trying to act "Big" as stated below. This is not against server rules to form opinions about individuals, and then exclude them if in the past they've proven to be untrustworthy and unreliable, especially in Security a department which has the ability to make or break a players round.

On 12/4/2018 at 10:35 PM, ZetaGundumb said:

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2) Despite this, he made active efforts to isolate both the cadet members of security, Adrien Major (played by me (Bauser)) and Brock Harkoni, away from this gameplay. He didn't share a single detail of his security operation, which became a problem when Major happened upon one of his suspects by chance. Major, seeing that the individual appeared wounded, moved to take the suspect to the medical bay, only to be intercepted by detective Ming and chastised for doing what was the CORRECT thing to do considering that Major had no knowledge of the detective's operation. Detective Ming made it clear that the cadets were expressly forbidden from having any involvement in the security work of that round.

Sounds like the individual in question was misinformed, not only did the Chief Medical Officer Fernando Gonzales publicly, and over the common channel state that the individual was not sick physically and it was psychologically, but four Security Officers, and myself, also stated that. It also appears that these screenshots are excluding a majority of the conversation, more specifically, what was said before and what was said after. Rue was my Forensic Technician, and also a Skrellian who worked close with me on this case, and was informed of everything. I was telling the Officer who was alone, chasing down a person accused of murder, who had just drank blood straight out of a bloodbag and fled from medical to make sure his sensors were up so Fernando could track.

 

In the case of me telling the Warden that Homicide Investigations take priority over everything, a huge chunk of that conversation was blacked out to only include that statement. Everyone in Security, including the Active IAA Agent agreed and stated before my statement that, that was incorrect. That was also a different situation outside of a Homicide Investigation, it involved a situation in which orders to void it were given by the administration team. The situation the Warden was talking about, ended in people receiving admin rejuvs, and having the atmosphere cleared as a griefer suicide bombed the surface level.

 

Those screenshots only prove one thing, that this was a Detective working a case. Officers at any time could have said no, and could have refused, but they wanted to be apart of that roleplay as it was interesting, we could have skipped all of this and arrested the guy accused of murder without any evidence like how most arrests happen, and threw him in the permabrig. However we didn't, we roleplayed it out.

On 12/4/2018 at 10:35 PM, ZetaGundumb said:

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The screenshot above was after the cadet ruined my sting operation, and disobeyed orders. The Officers who were there also said the same thing, this Cadet not only was insubordinate to four Security Officers, but insubordinate to the Detective on the case. As previously mentioned Adrien Major is an individual who I have interacted with before, and I have determined him to be unreliable in handling investigations. He cannot keep his mouth shut, and actively attempts to interfere with it. He overstepped his bounds as a cadet, and was put back in his place by the Detective, who's case he almost ruined. 

The Cadet was also walking around without a superior officer, who would have kept him informed, and instead acting like the Security Cadet slot was just another slot for a Security Officer. In reality it is not. He also left out the part where he actively contradicted in front of my suspect, used bold text to tell me and the Officers behind me that we were in the wrong, and overall act counter-intuitively to what a Security Cadet would have done in that situation. You do not become a Cadet, and then think you know better then the Security Officers and Detective who are actively on an investigation. That doesn't make sense.

On 12/4/2018 at 10:35 PM, ZetaGundumb said:

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And he felt in-charge enough to subvert the ACTUAL command.

I sent a PDA message to the Chief Medical Officer, requesting green. I did not get a reply back but I presume he understood that which is why the Code, even after the announcement was made, was kept at Green. If the Chief Medical Officer raised it to blue, all that he would get was a complaint out of me, unless you're saying I had access to change the code? You can also see the Officers, before he cut out parts of the statement, agreeing with me in this. There was an OOC message to ignore the grief that took place on the surface level, and that is what I did. That didn't happen.

On 12/4/2018 at 10:35 PM, ZetaGundumb said:

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Immediately after the CMO made that announcement, Ming went on the public radio to assure everyone that there was no real danger, and assure me personally that he was right to spin this peaceful falsehood because he didn't want to spook the suspects in his investigation.

When I woke up from SSD (my power went out) and discovered someone had forced a cigarette into my mouth, I tried to bring it up over radio... But his control of the department was thorough enough that he didn't even want to let me talk, for fear it would jeopardize whatever he was doing.

The CMO made the announcement about a situation which was determined to be GRIEF by the administrative staff, in which they said in OOC to void it. I did not assure anyone that it was safe, I believe my exact words were "Security has investigated this and determined it to be a Murder-Suicide." to which other Officers reiterated. I then said "There is no further threat of further attacks, as the attacker is deceased." Or something along those lines. This is again another screenshot taken out of context and it isn't indicative of what happened during that round. When you review the logs you will see that.

The Officers were also infuriated with the Chief Medical Officer's decision, which you could see if he didn't screenshot partial parts of the conversation. Again this screenshot, like the majority on this post, are taken out of context and leave out key parts of information pertinent to the player complaint.

On 12/4/2018 at 10:35 PM, ZetaGundumb said:

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Obviously, I had no idea why he wanted me to stop talking, since he never shared any information at all with me. I wasn't even informed that he was running any cohesive security operation until late in the round, when I accidentally bumped into him in the middle of it. Before then, all I knew was he was ordering officers around.

In total, playing with him was actively detrimental to my experience at every single turn. It's okay to have an asshole character, but you can only get away with it if you're an asshole character who generates RP for the people you antagonize - and LordRaven's detective did nothing for me except push me out of the round and then act like a monumental jerk when I tried to participate. And even despite all this, I would be willing to forgive this poor quality of play if he had at least shown some tiny bit of remorse for how it totally screwed me. But instead, when I told him of my disappointment after the round, he totally didn't care at all, telling multiple people "I'm not goint to include cadets on a homicide investigation." I said I interpreted this as "so you purposefully hung the cadets up to dry" and he verified that interpretation - "yes."

Even bothering to tell us who might be worth steering clear of, to AVOID hindering his investigation, was affirmatively too much for LordRaven to share. 

I wanted Adrien Major to stop talking because during previous rounds he was found to be unreliable. We were actively talking about facts of the case in the Security Channel at that time, and actively discussing evidence and leads. Including the fact that an individual drank blood from Medical, to which I would not be surprised if he was going to reveal. This is early in the round and it is the point in which we no longer actively discussed information in the Security Channel for fear of an information leak, and having the psychologically unstable suspect cause more harm.

I'm not going to jeopardize my Homicide Investigation for a cadet who spouts random facts over common, and is actively insubordinate to superior officers, and the Detective. This screenshot was also taken out of context, there is an entire conversation that went on before me stating that with both my fellow Officers, and the Warden. It is not against the server rules to dislike a character, and it is certainly not against server rules to exclude a character if past experiences have proven them to be of a certain disposition.

On 12/4/2018 at 10:35 PM, ZetaGundumb said:

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LanceLynxx asked why I was complaining, and LordRaven confidently asserted I was just butthurt about being talked down to in-game, as seen here

Never once did I call him butthurt. This entire conversation is taken out of context, what he left out was the majority of the server agreeing that his conduct was unacceptable, and that Security Cadets should remain with Officers, and not be charging head first into an active sting operation to handle a patient who was psychologically unstable, that we were watching. While I can take responsibility for not telling him to avoid the Engineering area, when you see Officers hiding in the EVA storage, and in lockers, and talking about getting ready to surround a place, your first instinct shouldn't be to charge directly in the center of it and then act insubordinate to the Officers around you. That isn't acceptable Cadet behavior and will not get you brownie points.

On 12/4/2018 at 10:35 PM, ZetaGundumb said:

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But this statement is ridiculous because how the hell am I supposed to protect his investigation if he doesn't even give me rudimentary information about what or where it is or who it involves? He tells me literally nothing about it, then goes off on me for trying to take someone to medical. He says I fucked up his investigation with back-talking, when I didn't even know what he was investigating, or where, or why, specifically because he FORBID me from knowing. And I didn't even back-talk him until after he had his suspect, so the idea that I ruined his master plan is nonsense. His response to my grievances were nothing but belittling B.S.

The logs will show that while the suspect and I were talking, he actively backtalked me and was insubordinate to the Officers behind me, I'm not going to arrest people based on witnesses, I want cold hard evidence. Which is why we were doing this all in the first place, I could have HuT the suspect the second I had the AI tell me he was near the scene of the crime, had fibers there, drank blood, and was Psychologically Unstable.  People do it all the time, however that is shit security play and I refuse to be apart of it. 

On 12/4/2018 at 10:35 PM, ZetaGundumb said:

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He accuses me of trying to be gung-ho and "get in the middle of everything," but his reasoning is flatly ridiculous because, while he SAYS what I should be doing is ''being quiet and absorbing information,'' he showed multiple times that he forbid any information from reaching us. So... his operating philosophy is a complete sham. All of these logs should paint an accurate picture of LordRaven001 as a commando detective who thinks he's a head of security and doesn't care who has fun in the process of his manhunt. It exemplifies the worst qualities of security players. If you're an asshole without generating RP to the person you're an asshole to, that's not having an asshole character - that's just being an asshole. I'm sure the round was plenty fun for everyone he decided was allowed to participate.

Sounds like this entire statement is just an insult. So I'm not going to flatter it with a response.

 

Overall a majority of this player complaint seems to be taken out of context and is not indicative of what happened during the round, moreso these screenshots were taken in a vindictive capacity and actively blurred and censored to reinforce that vindictiveness.  When you review the logs you will clearly see that Adrien Major was not only insubordinate, but also untrustworthy when dealing with matters that involve high sensitivity.

[ZetaGundumb]

(Bauser's response)

12 hours ago, LordRaven001 said:

I wanted Adrien Major to stop talking because during previous rounds he was found to be unreliable.

Honestly, this approach is even more disagreeable. This was the first round Major ever met Ming, so by this statement, it is necessarily true that you were using meta (OOC) knowledge in order to run "your" security department. Even though, to start with, your attitude that Major warning the crew about dangers (like someone sucking out people's blood) is somehow a bad thing further demonstrates your attitude that you play security for the purpose of winning. Most of the crew isn't security, and you have shown at every turn a willingness to cut people out of the game if it has any chance of helping you win.

 

I've seen this attitude repeated in three separate rounds since this incident, as well. After the round that started with Skrell-only security, you bragged about "kicking ass and taking names" with them, and there was an autotraitor round whereafter you bragged about capturing 4 of the 6 antags - literally every single time I see Ming, the end result of the round is you being proud of how good you are at winning. Again yesterday, I saw you order the research director to raise the alert level over the public radio, and you literally said "Director, raise the alert level. I'll brief you on it later." Think about that; Ming literally orders around command with the justification that he can explain it after he's got his win. "Hey, head of staff, raise the alert level, I'll tell you why later."

 

Your gameplay is motivated purely by winning, and no matter how much you say this is taken out of context, tbear will see that you spent the round (and every round you play as Ming) concerned with nothing but how to shut down the antags most effectively, with no concern for the game it ultimately creates for other players. If an antagonist was played the way you play detective Ming, they would be banned from being an antagonist. As a member of security, you have the same responsibility as antags do: drive roleplay. You consciously neglect this responsibility when you play Ming.

Edited December 7, 2018 by ZetaGundumb
fixed typo

[LordRaven001]

9 hours ago, ZetaGundumb said:

(Bauser's response)

Honestly, this approach is even more disagreeable. This was the first round Major ever met Ming, so by this statement, it is necessarily true that you were using meta (OOC) knowledge in order to run "your" security department. Even though, to start with, your attitude that Major warning the crew about dangers (like someone sucking out people's blood) is somehow a bad thing further demonstrates your attitude that you play security for the purpose of winning. Most of the crew isn't security, and you have shown at every turn a willingness to cut people out of the game if it has any chance of helping you win.

I've seen this attitude repeated in three separate rounds since this incident, as well. After the round that started with Skrell-only security, you bragged about "kicking ass and taking names" with them, and there was an autotraitor round whereafter you bragged about capturing 4 of the 6 antags - literally every single time I see Ming, the end result of the round is you being proud of how good you are at winning. Again yesterday, I saw you order the research director to raise the alert level over the public radio, and you literally said "Director, raise the alert level. I'll brief you on it later." Think about that; Ming literally orders around command with the justification that he can explain it after he's got his win. "Hey, head of staff, raise the alert level, I'll tell you why later."

You just admitted you were about to compromise a homicide investigation by warning people that someone was sucking out people's blood, the individual that was suspected and convicted of sucking out someone's blood was being followed by an Officer who agreed to do that job, and myself. You would rather risk all this roleplay just so you can be seen as the hero, this same behavior is shown during the Engineering Lobby encounter in which you PUBLICLY and in front of numerous individuals, disobeyed orders from the established chain of command and then started arguing with them that behavior as a Security Cadet is simply unacceptable, you're there to learn not to rush into every encounter acting like you're the big boss in town and disobeying every established chain of command since the 2400. 

I have shown willingness to cut people who I feel aren't up to the task of maintaining an investigation out of the investigation. Your in character conduct proved this to me. Ming and Major have met more than once so I don't know where you got that from.  I've shown a willingness to cut Adrien Major out of this at every turn, mostly because as previously stated, your in character conduct has proven that you're insubordinate, noisy, and show a disregard for maintaining the security of an Investigation, don't give that impression to people and they won't cut you out of a high stakes investigation.

Its not against server rules to banter about your case record with your boss, especially if you've been brought up in the environment where bragging is acceptable, in the case of Ming this environment was Olympia on Mars it fit with the character and was perfectly acceptable, if you're going to claim that me bragging about my case records is against server rules I want you to get the names of every regular Detective player and write up a complaint on them too.

You're right, I am proud that I caught those antags, and I am proud that I kicked ass and took names, because unlike a majority of the other Detective Players, I got confessions out of each and every one of them, and I tied them to the scene using evidence and detective work. I'm not going to hide that I am ecstatic that the detective play worked out, and that instead of just throwing people into a cell based on someone's word, I got confessions out of every one of them.

Never once did I say "Director raise the alert level" mostly because I don't interact with Research Directors. Ming doesn't speak with Researchers or Scientists unless they're fellow Skrell or its required in the pursuit of an investigation due to some backstory issues and trauma, so that accusation is baseless and follows the trend of this player complaint, lacking in facts and vindictive. If you're going to tell me how my character interacts with a specific group you should at-least get my character's backstory right, before making a random accusation with no base. 

I would also never say "Director raise the alert level. I'll brief you on it later" Skrell do not speak that way, it would be something along the lines of "Director, level blue, brief later." So before you start spouting random nonsense and then claim I said it, you should at-least understand how Skrell talk in basic. In Ming's case he is more adapted to Tau Ceti Basic, yet still reverts back to his old mannerisms, as most people do when speaking in a foreign language, if he is in the presence of foreign company, and or individuals he does not work with regularly in the case of the Security Channel frequency having Ming talk near perfect basic, or when he is speaking to his co-workers in the Security department.

9 hours ago, ZetaGundumb said:

Your gameplay is motivated purely by winning, and no matter how much you say this is taken out of context, tbear will see that you spent the round (and every round you play as Ming) concerned with nothing but how to shut down the antags most effectively, with no concern for the game it ultimately creates for other players. If an antagonist was played the way you play detective Ming, they would be banned from being an antagonist. As a member of security, you have the same responsibility as antags do: drive roleplay. You consciously neglect this responsibility when you play Ming.

This is quite baseless as-well. If I was concerned by purely winning I wouldn't offer to reduce charges in exchange for information, I wouldn't offer to turn an antag into a confidential informant and have them flip on a higher level criminal, I would simply just throw them in a box based on some random persons testimony like how a majority of arrests are concluded. Instead I gather evidence, I gather witnesses, I interrogate, I keep everyone who hasn't proven in the past to be incompetent at their job in the loop, I keep the crew in the loop if I think they can help my investigation. If I was motivated by purely winning I would skip all the roleplay and simply throw them in jail.

I can see why you've been banned on the forums, you've spouted lie after lie and baseless accusation after baseless accusation in the forum of an official complaint. When Tbear reviews the logs and finds out that you've been lying constantly throughout the entire player complaint, I will be making a player complaint on you for the fact that you've failed to obey forum rules, and more specifically, that you've lied to the administration team for vindictive reasons. This entire player complaint is a joke and I refuse to be apart of the lack of respect for the staff team, and Aurorastation as a whole by lying constantly in an attempt to get someone punished, that is quite frankly bullshit. 

 

[CampinKiller]

I’m going to pop in as an involved party here (I was one of the Sec officers). I joined the round late, however I can attest to the fact that Ming, in running his investigation, acted like the HoS in giving out orders. Is that necessarily bad that he stepped up to organize the investigation? Not really, someone needs to do it, but it did cause some spats on the radio, if memory serves.

 

I have two main comments on the exclusion of the cadets, specifically Major:

 

1. From an investigative standpoint, it makes no sense to not tell the officers and cadets who the suspect they are waiting to arrest/need to be aware of is. Yes, there is the possibility of a leak, but Internal Security is supposed to be trustworthy enough to where that shouldn’t be a problem. When you don’t, you get situations like the one mentioned, where an unaware cadet tries to escort the suspect to medical, which interrupted a sting.

 

2. Recall that cadets on station are in their last leg of training. Just because they’re young and new doesn’t mean they’ll go blabbing about things. Major has a loud mouth, sure, but he’s very good about keeping anything remotely sensitive off public radio. I ran, with my officer, a close to 2 hour homicide investigation that Major was involved with, and we didn’t have any leaks, so I’m not sure where you get that Major is an untrustworthy character

[LordRaven001]

5 hours ago, CampinKiller said:

I’m going to pop in as an involved party here (I was one of the Sec officers). I joined the round late, however I can attest to the fact that Ming, in running his investigation, acted like the HoS in giving out orders. Is that necessarily bad that he stepped up to organize the investigation? Not really, someone needs to do it, but it did cause some spats on the radio, if memory serves.

 

1. From an investigative standpoint, it makes no sense to not tell the officers and cadets who the suspect they are waiting to arrest/need to be aware of is. Yes, there is the possibility of a leak, but Internal Security is supposed to be trustworthy enough to where that shouldn’t be a problem. When you don’t, you get situations like the one mentioned, where an unaware cadet tries to escort the suspect to medical, which interrupted a sting.

 

2. Recall that cadets on station are in their last leg of training. Just because they’re young and new doesn’t mean they’ll go blabbing about things. Major has a loud mouth, sure, but he’s very good about keeping anything remotely sensitive off public radio. I ran, with my officer, a close to 2 hour homicide investigation that Major was involved with, and we didn’t have any leaks, so I’m not sure where you get that Major is an untrustworthy character

My intention was not to act like the Head of Security, merely an authoritative Detective. The spats it caused were all in relation to Adrien Major, Adrien Major this round was an antagonistic individual towards my Detective, which made me exclude them further.

 

I told every single Officer, and every single Cadet besides Adrien Major about the Investigation, and actively included them. I don't know where the information or statement that I excluded everyone and everything came from, everyone but Adrien Major was included. He was the only individual not included. This was due to my personal interactions with the individual on my Detective Character. My Detective did not trust them, did not like them, and did not want them messing up my Investigation. It is not against server rules to dislike a character.

 

As previously stated above. In the interactions I had with Major I determined him to be untrustworthy, from both past round interactions and this current round. I did not want him involved in my Investigation because of his loudmouth attitude, his insubordination, and his overall demeanor and attitude. Again, it is not against server rules to dislike a character, nor is it against server rules to exclude a character.

[ZetaGundumb]

(Bauser's response)
Your claim that Major acted antagonistically is so wildly unfounded that it would be insulting if it wasn't meaningless. Accusing me of being antagonistic and accusing me of having a loudmouth attitude can't be construed as anything but projection... The only interaction we had in-person was Major telling Ming he had no idea why Ming wanted to take the engineer in for questioning. This was when Ming went off on him, chastising Major for supposed insubordination. Because how dare a cadet want to know why he's detaining someone, right? And the only time Major acted even remotely problematic was after Ming chastised him and accused him of being insubordinate, Major went on the sec radio to speak his grievance about the detective acting as a HoS, and all he did was tell Ming ''You're not the boss of me'' (this was my IC attempt to resolve what we ultimately can see is an OOC issue). This was purely a spoken complaint, and Major did nothing to act against the interests of the security department.

 

Anyway, like I said earlier, this was the first round Ming ever met Major, so it's impossible that this preconception of Major as some security-traitor was formed in-character. If there's any legitimacy to LordRaven's concept of Major as untrustworthy, it would necessarily have been formed from OOC knowledge and therefore metagaming as well (and in either case, it evidences the truth that you were firstly concerned with winning). Finally, you say that you also included "every cadet other than Major" in your plans, but there's no evidence that this is true, either. The player of the only other cadet character, Brock Harkoni, said in OOC after the round that he was also in the dark the whole time, and he just entertained himself for the round.

 

Other than that, I make no contest. Anyone who looks into the logs - even if they just look at the logs I've provided and the testimony here - will clearly see that you did everything you're accused of and that you're not sorry about it. I have you dead-to-rights.

[LordRaven001]

10 hours ago, ZetaGundumb said:

Your claim that Major acted antagonistically is so wildly unfounded that it would be insulting if it wasn't meaningless. Accusing me of being antagonistic and accusing me of having a loudmouth attitude can't be construed as anything but projection... The only interaction we had in-person was Major telling Ming he had no idea why Ming wanted to take the engineer in for questioning. This was when Ming went off on him, chastising Major for supposed insubordination. Because how dare a cadet want to know why he's detaining someone, right? And the only time Major acted even remotely problematic was after Ming chastised him and accused him of being insubordinate, Major went on the sec radio to speak his grievance about the detective acting as a HoS, and all he did was tell Ming ''You're not the boss of me'' (this was my IC attempt to resolve what we ultimately can see is an OOC issue). This was purely a spoken complaint, and Major did nothing to act against the interests of the security department.

Insubordination is Antagonistic to the individual whom you're being insubordinate too, CampinKiller also concurred with me on your loudmouth attitude so its not just my opinion reinforcing this. In OOC Chat, that you've left out other players have also concurred that your conduct was unbecoming, some went as so far as to accuse you of playing bad because of your behavior in OOC. Tbear has those logs and is reviewing them at this time. Your posts are devolving into insults and repetition, to which I've bolded, and you're becoming extremely defensive which if I've learned anything during my time as a First Responder is that when people become defensive they lose the ability to speak in an unbiased capacity and provide conversation that will become productive. After this reply I will be awaiting a response from the administration as this banter has proven to be unproductive, you refuse to admit that you've left key evidence out of the screenshots that you've provided.

I've spoken with members of the Administration and have confirmed that lying in a player complaint can result in a server ban, or a global ban, and when this player complaint is resolved with the logs proving that I did nothing wrong, and that you've left out key information I will be pressing for that action.

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Anyway, like I said earlier, this was the first round Ming ever met Major, so it's impossible that this preconception of Major as some security-traitor was formed in-character. If there's any legitimacy to LordRaven's concept of Major as untrustworthy, it would necessarily have been formed from OOC knowledge and therefore metagaming as well (and in either case, it evidences the truth that you were firstly concerned with winning). Finally, you say that you also included "every cadet other than Major" in your plans, but there's no evidence that this is true, either. The player of the only other cadet character, Brock Harkoni, said in OOC after the round that he was also in the dark the whole time, and he just entertained himself for the round.

That is incorrect, Brock Harkoni was the first individual on the Investigation, unless I am mixing him up with someone else. He is a black Security Cadet with a Security Belt, White Pants, and a Vest, or he was at the time of this round. I had him remain in the Bar while I spoke with Cassidy Hendricks about the main suspect. We can get him to reply to this player complaint as-well, to confirm this. Just because you didn't know about it doesn't mean it did not happen.

You've also accused me of metagaming yet provided no evidence to back it up. Impressions of characters are formed on the spot. Coupled with the previous rounds that Ming and Major have been in together, which I'm not quite sure why you're denying as the Admins have access to look it up, they literally hit a button and an entire .txt file is generated, coupled with your current behavior this round has led me to find an opinion of disfavor of Adrien Major. Ming is a logical being and when someone has proven that they will be of no use, not even for guard duty, he cuts them out of the Investigation. Its the way he is played, and there is nothing against the server rules saying that I have to include everyone, in everything, at all times. That would be unenforceable and quite frankly silly.

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Other than that, I make no contest. Anyone who looks into the logs - even if they just look at the logs I've provided and the testimony here - will clearly see that you did everything you're accused of and that you're not sorry about it. I have you dead-to-rights.

This is just a quote to reinforce my further conclusion that this discussion has grown unproductive, which is why again I will no longer be replying to responses and I will be awaiting a response from @HouseOfSynth and @tbear13 on the conclusion of this player complaint.

Edited December 10, 2018 by LordRaven001
Definition of Antagonistic: showing or feeling active opposition or hostility toward someone or something.

[CampinKiller]

When I said Major had a loudmouth, I mean that the character likes to speak up, not that he's outright insubordinate.

[ZetaGundumb]

(Bauser's response)
Raven's nitpicking the definition of "antagonistic" is desperate and backwards, considering 1) his dictionary-definition of antagonism is not the definition we use in-game (antagonism in Aurora involves creating tangible obstacles or dangers in a round, not just being mean to each other) and 2) it describes the way that Ming treated Major first (recall that our first abrasive interaction was me saying I didn't know why we were detaining someone, and Ming's response was essentially telling me to STFU and do what he says without knowing why). It's true that some people in OOC after the round accused me of being a poor sport for complaining about your behavior, but critically, everyone will notice that the people saying those things are the ones who didn't actually know what happened between our characters that round. I will grant you that you had the full support of the demographic "people who didn't know what they were talking about."

The reason I said you also hung the other cadet up to dry (Brock Harkoni) is that I saw that his player said in OOC after the round that he had to entertain himself for a lack of being involved. That message is another undeniable truth which will be apparent in the logs. This, in conjunction with Ming telling Major his speech about cadets not getting to be involved, suggested to me that you had acted similarly dismissive or ignorant towards him. So while it's true that I don't know the round he experienced, from his perspective, all the evidence that I could see suggested that you weren't any more forthcoming to him. Hopefully I'm wrong about that.

IF it's true (big if) that Ming and Major have been in rounds together in the past, I have no recollection of them, and as such I certainly don't believe the characters met even if they were concurrent at any time. Thank you for admitting, though, that you made the conscious choice to screw me over because you don't like my character.

There is no substance whatsoever to your counterclaims, and your threats to "press for administrative action" are flatly pathetic. I'm not getting defensive, because my character and behavior aren't on trial here, and I trust the administration to see clearly through your awkward, transparent attempt at spin. Resi and Campinkiller, thank you both for taking the time to contribute to this. If I had known ahead of time that I was inviting you a crucifixion, I would have put a warning in the title.

EDIT: Forgot to mention...
"Insubordination" is a word we've been throwing around a bunch, so it's also worth noting that Major never actually subverted or refused to follow any orders that were given to him by HoS-detective Ming. I initially told the engineer that they weren't being detained, because I was never told before that the engineer WAS supposed to be detained, and afterward, I took them to the medical bay in line with Ming's instruction (which was what Major wanted to do, to start with, something that's also apparent in our IC conversation). The most insubordinate thing I did was say "You're not the boss of me" after describing that what I meant was "If a crewmember is hurt, I'm going to help them." These things will be outwardly apparent when you look at the little spiel I gave on the Security radio.

Edited December 11, 2018 by ZetaGundumb
Added content RE: "Insubordination"

[HouseOfSynth]

Hello, Hello! 

I apologise for the delay in dealing with this, I've been pretty busy IRL. However you will be glad to know I have come to a conclusion regarding this complaint.

I've decided that Raven's actions in this round do not break the rules. A detective taking charge of an investigation isn't really an issue if there's no overruling authority, such as a HoS or at a stretch a Captain. It makes sense for them to do this. All I can really say is that excluding people, even though it's not against the rules to do so, is kind of a dick move. So I'll leave it at this. @LordRaven001, in future investigations you should include the rest of security. Your co-workers and even cadets would know not to leak internal info before they started their actual on-station cadet training, so usually, they should be trustworthy. However, If a cadet does prove to leak information when you give it to them, then on future investigations you could possibly hold back on the facts with them a little, but don't just shut them out, build some RP around it so they're not completely cut off from the round's ongoings. But excluding someone because your characters haven't met is a little iffy if you ask me. 

 

That's basically my verdict on this. I'm considering this resolved and will be locking and archiving this complaint. If you wish to contest my ruling, feel free to take it to the staff complaints forum. Again, apologies for letting this run on for so long.