Staff complaint - Tbear13

[Leudoberct]

BYOND Key: Leudoberct
Staff BYOND Key: Tbear13
Game ID: b32-dCyJ
Reason for complaint: During a round in which the AI was malfunctioning, I happened to view my engineering cyborg tampering with the robotics control console without having said a word to me or anyone else. I questioned it, and it and the AI responded that there was a "faulty monitor". I checked the camera of the other cyborg, and saw that it was barricading the AI core, again, without saying anything. I questioned it, but received no response. So, I went to check out the RD's office for myself, and found that they'd even replaced the circuit board with a power monitoring one.  We'd already had multiple APCs appearing with blue screens (though my character treated this as a software fault), and I noticed that the APC in the office was bluescreened. I notified the Head of Security that I had suspicions about the AI and its cyborgs, and began attempting to debug the APC. The AI triggered a gravity failure every time to prevent me, at which point my suspicions were roused even further.

I tried to get the RD to produce a new cyborg monitoring circuitboard, and the AI attempted to stop us, shutting down the equipment in R&D and Robotics, trying to prevent us from fixing the console. At this point I believed my suspicions confirmed, and fixed the APC and cut the AI access to it, allowing us to produce the circuit board. The research personnel then went on to either lockdown or blow the borgs, I'm not sure which, depriving the AI of its borgs. Please keep in mind that the only thing that I had heard from the AI at all for the shift so far was about the "monitor issue." After that it gave a two word announcement of "Deepest condolences" and then detonated something in the science lab, which I believe resulted in the fatality of a crewmember. At this point security was well aware of the issue with the AI, and I told them that we would likely have to get into the core, but received no response. At that point I decided that I would try to deal with the AI without storming the core. I had assistance from a security cadet, who brought an emitter down to the medical sublevel with me. I also spoke with Fernando Gonzales on the matter, and he seemed to give his consent on my plan.

I spoke of my intentions multiple times that I was planning to use an emitter to destroy the AI from afar, giving the AI plenty of chances to catch on to what I was trying to do and to give it a chance to stop me. The AI did not so much as attempt to stop me, or even communicate me. It had barely communicated with anyone at all for the shift, instead seeming to be all but silent. Even as I was working on making my way towards the AI with the emitter through the walls, having to adjust my aim multiple times to get to it, I made statements in the common channel about how I was "dealing with the AI", making it very clear to the AI that I was coming for it, and it still made no effort to stop me or say anything. Eventually, I took the AI out with the emitter, and later received a PM from Tbear13 about why I used the emitter.

I stated why I used it and said that I had made multiple references to my intent to give the AI a chance to react, but he instead claimed that I had essentially "ganked" the AI and not given it "any warning or escalation", despite having made it clear to the AI  multiple times by talking to others through radio channels of what I was intending to do. The AI hadn't spoken or RPed with anyone properly during the round, instead being pretty silent and then ramping it straight up to trying to kill crewmembers with explosions, but I still made it clear to the AI that I was coming. Tbear13 continued to insist that I gave the AI no proper warning or chance to RP, and added a warning to my account, which I heavily dispute, as I believe that I gave the AI plenty of chances to react or to RP- the player of the AI seemingly chose to ignore these chances, as it did most chances to RP that round.

I would like this warning to be removed.

Evidence/logs/etc: Bunch of screenshots from the round:
Me telling security that we would probably have to breach the core - https://gyazo.com/a09e5fec6be90643a1578b5ad11ddcbb
Me announcing my intent to a colleague in the engineering radio to have an emitter brought to the medical sublevel - https://gyazo.com/620f887aaa5036990832e9efbe8f9978
Me telling my colleague to bring the emitter to the AI core - https://gyazo.com/391628ecb0224bc2dd2c110f9842374d
My conversation with Gonzales - https://gyazo.com/e771d2fc6e606947f9410aba5934ef6a
Making reference to the fact that I was working on reaching the AI in the common channel - https://gyazo.com/31d78e206d41109d64b1bfcedd90a6aa
Outright saying that I was close to dealing with the AI - https://gyazo.com/3eca5270059bbfe2976af36fa4f1d262

Additional remarks: I get that it may be frustrating for the AI that they didn't have their cyborgs to deal with me physically, or that they couldn't really defend themselves against the emitter once I'd gotten it set up, but I feel like they still had multiple chances to attempt to stop me, such as bolting the doors on my way there, or bolting the doors to where emitters are stored, or even just trying to TALK to me, rather than just remain completely silent, like they had for 99% of the round. I gave them plenty of chances to cotton on to what I was doing and make attempts to stop me, but none were made. I only went to the point of trying to kill the AI in the first place when they decided to escalate to the point of attempting to murder multiple crewmembers in an explosion.

[Kaed]

As the AI this round, I can tell you that I believe the problem with your behavior here is your expectation that I will somehow notice everything you do when you do not directly engage me.

I will grant you that it from your logs it looks like you made several radio announcements in regards to you grabbing an emitter, that I appear to entirely have missed.

However if this is not an engagement or role play. As an AI I have over five channels to watch at the same time, that are all extremely busy, in addition to having to manage multiple events of people breaking cameras and doing things that I need to stop (not to mention having to restart the client every time I unlocked research and wait 30+ seconds to come back because byond fuckery and no has yet fixed malf so their abilities show up after researching them without restarting the client). There were multiple people that round that took the opportunity to PDA me, or prod me via holopad. I responded to every one of those people as best I could. Nor was I even aware that my last borg had been detonated until I got a bwoink asking why I detonated my own Borg (I did not).

You made no attempt to reach out to me, negotiate with me, roleplay with me or anything. Even if I had noticed your engineering chatter, there was absolutely nothing I could have done to stop you at that point. When I abruptly found myself dead by emitter, I had been in the middle of a holopad conversation with a security officer in the brig, largely oblivious to what you were doing.

If you honestly thought that you were giving me a chance to react to it, you would have addressed me directly in some way, giving me a warning that you're going to emitter my core if I don't comply with some demand. I probably would have capitulated since I was largely helpless at that that point.

You received a warning because you made no attempt to escalate the matter. You went straight to an emitter backdoor, and began planning for it quite early and openly judging by your logs, even if I managed to miss it.

"He didn't try communicating with me either" isn't excuse for behaving that way. I also got talked to by a staff member during that round for my behavior, so I am well aware that I did not do very well at communicating myself. That isn't really relevant to your warning.

 

Edited November 3, 2019 by Kaed

[Garnascus]

I will look into this over the next few days. I do have one question though.

On 02/11/2019 at 21:41, Leudoberct said:

I questioned it, and it and the AI responded that there was a "faulty monitor". I checked the camera of the other cyborg

Ok but WHY? Why did you have reason to believe that the AIs excuse of a "faulty monitor" was at all suspect? Why did you check the cameras of the other cyborg? Seems a little like motivated reasoning to me. 

[Kaed]

3 hours ago, Garnascus said:

I will look into this over the next few days. I do have one question though.

Ok but WHY? Why did you have reason to believe that the AIs excuse of a "faulty monitor" was at all suspect? Why did you check the cameras of the other cyborg? Seems a little like motivated reasoning to me. 

If remembering that part correctly, I used some sort of lie saying that I detected faulty borg behavior once the borg was caught, trying to throw my borg under the bus in favor of possibly delaying my reveal (though he immediately checked the other camera and saw the borg fortifying my core so it was moot).

To my knowledge, he was the same engineer who responded to a report of a bluescreened APC earlier in the round, I remember seeing him debugging the APC in the security lobby.  I don't know if that was sufficient reasoning to begin checking borg cameras later on, though.  The timing of him discovering this might have been a little suspect? I suppose it's possible he just happened to peep on that borg as it began disassembling the robotics console, though, by complete coincidence, rather than having been sitting there for a while watching them Just In Case.

Also, since when does engineering have access to all borg cameras from their lobby console, for that matter?  Seems a little out of scope of their responsibilities.

Edited November 4, 2019 by Kaed

[Leudoberct]

I had fixed a bluescreened APC earlier in the round, yes. And I checked the engineering cyborg's camera by complete chance, because the cyborg had been asking me for orders previously and had been communicating, so when they'd been quiet for a bit, I decided to check the camera just to see what they were getting up to, and saw them deconstructing the monitor, by chance. The reason I went to check it out after they gave the faulty monitor excuse was because the borg immediately left the office when I started asking questions, leaving the console half-deconstructed. As for why I had access to the borg cameras, I upgraded the monitoring circuit in the Engineering foyer to show a wider scope of the station. This is something that I and other Station Engineers and Chief Engineers do as a standard part of setup, including on extended rounds, because it makes life easier for us to monitor things like the state of the shields on the surface, and to locate blobs when they pop up.

[tbear13]

Hi, sorry it took me a few days to post here. Anyway, I'll keep this pretty short.

You didn't really attempt to RP with the AI at all, a few radio messages that aren't even directed at them hardly pass for RP, and likely won't even be seen due to the sheer amount of logs AI players deal with. As for the emittering itself, sneaking in through the side of the core and blasting a hole in the wall is a pretty cruddy way to end someone's round. He couldn't really do anything to stop you, and all you really succeeded in doing was shutting the antag down.

[Leudoberct]

I made the effort to make it clear to their player what I was attempting to do and to give them a chance to stop me before I got myself into a position where they couldn't. As for speaking directly to the AI, I kind of figured that was a wasted effort, as from my perspective the AI had pretty much not communicated with the crew at all outside of a few sentences and then trying to blow people up.

[tbear13]

Even if you made an effort, those few radio messages really don't count for much. It just wasn't enough RP to justify killing it, especially killing it in the way you did.

[Leudoberct]

Hold on, not enough RP to justify killing it? It literally tried (and I'm fairly certain succeeded) to murder crewmembers, in a room that I was in just a few seconds ago, with an explosion. It was literally trying to kill people. How is that not justification to attempt to take it down? And in the way I did? Was I expected to run guns blazing into the core as an engineer, or am I not supposed to try and solve the issue the way an engineer would?

[Garnascus]

On 03/11/2019 at 01:24, Kaed said:

You received a warning because you made no attempt to escalate the matter. You went straight to an emitter backdoor, and began planning for it quite early and openly judging by your logs, even if I managed to miss it.

@Leudoberct Im sorry but i do think Kaed is right on the nose here. Your arguments seem to rely on the expectation that the AI will notice your radio messages. Its really really hard to expect this because of the insane amount of log spam the AI gets. I do not think this warning is inappropriate. 

I did forget about this i am sorry.