Revising CMD

[Erik Tiber]

So currently, standard operating procedure is that if someone is cloned, you lie to them and tell them they aren't a clone. If they had any prostehtics, you go and chop off the appropriate limbs and apply the prosthetics, all without their consent. You then, normally, falsify medical records by making no record of any of these medical procedures.

This is all rather extremely silly. It's blatantly medical fraud, and it's against the most basic tenets of the legal system. In addition, you would be performing a medical operation without consent. Not to mention the ethics of chopping off entire limbs and mutilating someone without their consent.

If someone's parents die in a car crash, the authorities don't go and lie to them, and tell them that their parents ran away to Cuba. If a relative dies overseas, either in the military or not, you don't go and lie to their family and give a cover story about how they ran away. If someone was assaulted and suffers amnesia, causing them to not remember the incident, you don't go and lie to them about them being assaulted. The idea that we should, without consent, chop off entire limbs to maintain such a flimsy lie seems extremely silly.

Therefore, I suggest that SOP be modified such that clones have required psych evals or therapy sessions post-cloning, and that they be notified in some manner, hopefully not in an insensitive manner. This does not prevent the person from lacking memory of the event which caused their death. You can simply say that people lose those memories when they died. Nothing that requires you to make people chop off limbs.

You simply can't hide something like somebody dying. If someone dies at the workplace, that will definitely be investigated by the correct authorities. In such incidents, it's extremely counterproductive to lie about literally every single person that died.

Simply put, being a clone can lead to some interesting roleplay. It's an interesting situation. It doesn't invariably lead to the person devolving into a degenerate wreck of their former selves. Sure, they will have identity issues, but it's simply too much trouble to hide their death from them, not to mention how very unethical that would be.

[Skull132]

Question for consideration.

A grand lot of the times, we lack a therapist/psychologist. Ergo, for the majority of the time, that article of SOP could not be adhered to, due to a lack of critical personnel. This would negate cloning as an effective tool of placing people back into the game.

Thoughts on the matter?

[Tainavaa]

The first thought that comes to my head regarding lack of therapeutic personnel is that the patient would be relieved of their duties for the time being. In that time, they could talk to whoever they needed to for comfort, guidance, or whatever else.

[Erik Tiber]

Question for consideration.

A grand lot of the times, we lack a therapist/psychologist. Ergo, for the majority of the time, that article of SOP could not be adhered to, due to a lack of critical personnel. This would negate cloning as an effective tool of placing people back into the game.

Thoughts on the matter?

That is a rather important point.

The first thought that comes to my head regarding lack of therapeutic personnel is that the patient would be relieved of their duties for the time being. In that time, they could talk to whoever they needed to for comfort, guidance, or whatever else.

 

Hmm. It could have an addendum, that if psychological personnel are not available, then they go to the chaplain/counselor for therapy. If nobody is available, they could get the option to be relieved of duty, and they could receive counselling from the most qualified individual available, at the discretion of on-sight medical personnel.

The point is that they'd get optional leave. Now this isn't the most realistic choice, but it does give people the option of returning to the round rather quickly, while letting them receive counselling if they want to. Perhaps that could work as a compromise?

[Tainavaa]

I think it's a decent alternative. We already have unrealistic mechanics as is such as going to sleep whenever you feel like via cryogenic storage or otherwise. Some people are able to push thoughts like that to the back of their mind when they busy themselves. It's possible that immediate therapy isn't necessary but in the case that people DO need it, convalescent leave is an option.

[Blue]

In my opinion, CMD needs to be botched. The whole concept is silly, unrealistic, unprofessional, and just plain doesn't make logical sense.

You got your head beaten in by a guy with a crowbar. You wake up in medbay. They tell you that he knocked you out but medical arrived just in time and saved you. You have brain damage from the crowbar and that's why you don't remember any of that. You believe him, and shrug it off.

Next shift, plasma leaks out and burns you. You wake up in medbay. They tell you that an atmos tech killed the fire just in time and popped you into a stasis bag and dragged you to medical. Your brain suffered burns somehow and you can't remember any of that. Skeptical, but you believe them.

Next shift, a man announces that he is a member of the Syndicate and ties you up in a closet. He shoots you twice in the head and it flies off. You wake up in medbay. They give you some obvious bullshit story about how your brain survived 2 bullets and how security somehow got you away from your killer and how medbay removed them in time. Despite the fact that you are well aware of a facility on your station that is literally designed to bring back the dead, and the countless "Friends don't tell friends they're clones" posters around the halls, you still refuse to even consider, that maybe these guys are lying to you.

It's just ridiculous

Gut the memory loss. You can RP it if you want, but it should no longer be mandatory. Instead, put in game mechanics that act as penalties for being cloned. Inconveniences that work as an incentive to be more careful of your death, and avoid stupid shit like ramboing the nuke ops to save the hostages.

Perhaps they could be tied to how you died, maybe not.

Examples of mechanics could be, becoming more sensitive to certain types of damage, having organs be weaker or less effective, slower movement speed, inability to hold large objects with one arm because the cloning process messed it up, blurred vision, shorter hearing range, minor untreatable brain damage that's not too game-changing but impossible to ignore, constant vomitting, slurred speech, loss of knowledge of languages, maybe even random genetic damage.

Would make things more interesting. Not only do you have to treat the clone, you have to keep an eye out on them so they don't get hurt.

To keep things canon, one would say that these penalties can only be treated with equipment at a proper hospital.

How does that sound?

[Tainavaa]

I think that's also a good alternative, however that would make the workload heavier on the dev team. I don't know how heavy it is now but the way you described it sounds like several more mechanics and a new system would have to be designed. I realize it can be simplified and is just as viable, if not a more involved solution.

[Jamini]

Next shift, a man announces that he is a member of the Syndicate and ties you up in a closet. He shoots you twice in the head and it flies off. You wake up in medbay. They give you some obvious bullshit story about how your brain survived 2 bullets and how security somehow got you away from your killer and how medbay removed them in time. Despite the fact that you are well aware of a facility on your station that is literally designed to bring back the dead, and the countless "Friends don't tell friends they're clones" posters around the halls, you still refuse to even consider, that maybe these guys are lying to you.

 

By the rules you wouldn't remember anything after getting tied up clearly. Honestly, I generally roleplay it as shift-long amnesia or more. The reason CMD exists at all is to protect antags from people who died metagaming and going "X killed me! Arrest them! As soon as you wake up. It exists for a good reason, and scrapping it is a poor idea.

That said, I don't mind having clones know they are clones (with option for players to say I'm DNC if the character is against it) gently. Mutilating the recently not-dead never sat well with me either. Just please, don't add in mechanical downsides to getting cloned. It's hard enough already.

[Skull132]

There needs to be some downside to cloning. CMD serves that purpose. CMD is a broad stroke label for any and all adverse mental developments that come as a result of you being killed, and being potentially informed of that fact. No human has ever had to deal with it, ergo, you lack the mental capacity to deal with it right off the cuff.

I'm okay with the completely forced memory loss and some stupidities that come along with it being removed, however. It still needs to exist as a guidelines for character development, and for what Jamini said. Also, keep in mind the premise of the game, Blue. The stupid accent rate of Aurora is not the full story, which is why certain things are retconned to negate the grungy, hardboiled, cynical and cold characters that everyone would turn into after a week here.

As for memory loss. I do have one note. If you get your head blown off, severely damaged, and cloned. Then you should have memory loss. Because they don't have exact data to reconstruct the brain out of, ergo, some bits would be missing. Forcing it? To the point where you cannot ID antags, please. Because it's stupid. Even with CMD, we've had instances of, "Oh, he shot me. Sec, arrest him," take place, and they just make me cringe, as it's rather awful and cheesy.

A means of realistically explaining that is the brain's capacity to completely and utterly block out traumatic experiences (what could be more traumatic than death, huh?). You'd remember who you are, probably most of the shift. And then have some form of blank spot. How you want to roll with that repressed memory, that's up to you (a positive example being, if you know OOCly which character offed you, growing an unexplained fear of that character, or perhaps attachment towards them). But please, don't give out antags by completely sidestepping the matter.

As for mechanical downsides. Err, no. Yadda dev time, yadda. Not really interested in that argument. CMD is a rather interesting concept, regardless of how we outlined and interpret it. Forcing mechanics of any complexity, beyond the damages already sustained, would make that freedom unnecessary, and cause good roleplay to be neglect for mechanical moves to remove and mend mechanical issues. Which is already a small issue with the medical system (see the: get wounded -> scan wounded -> operate -> shove back out cycle). So no, I'd rather leave this open for different approaches and RP.

And for cloned characters. I actually have a character who was told he's cloned. And again. And about a few hundred times after that. I played it out as him developing a rather hostile and cynical viewpoint of the world, issues with memory, and attached fun things.

[Erik Tiber]

Really, if the heart's stopped for any reasonable period of time, you can chalk up any brain damage to hypoxia, from the brain being oxygen starved. IRL this would simply lead to brain death, but we can just fudge it this way.

With this excuse, we can really justify just about any level of 'forgetfulness'.

[Johnny Mnemonic]

To me the concept isn't silly at all.

The station operates on NT law, wih an emphasis on work productivity, therefore once cloning takes place, it would make sense to postpone the potential inevitable freaking out and mental taxation on the clone. Until they reach Odin, where Do's trained personnel should probably do it.

Regarding limbs brought back, i would assume in year 2457 the technology is advanced enough that cybernetics are as good as normal limb, and people who grow accustomed to having a metallic arm aren't likely to want a organic one back. Potentially getting one back would take getting used to. It also would diminish work efficiency.

And medical records are updated at Odin

[Erik Tiber]

To me the concept isn't silly at all.

The station operates on NT law, wih an emphasis on work productivity, therefore once cloning takes place, it would make sense to postpone the potential inevitable freaking out and mental taxation on the clone. Until they reach Odin, where Do's trained personnel should probably do it.

NT doesn't really make law. It's a corporation. It has corporate regulations, but they are still subject to laws established by the state.

Regarding limbs brought back, i would assume in year 2457 the technology is advanced enough that cybernetics are as good as normal limb, and people who grow accustomed to having a metallic arm aren't likely to want a organic one back. Potentially getting one back would take getting used to. It also would diminish work efficiency.

And medical records are updated at Odin

Regardless, why not ask them first? You're essentially putting them through an unnecessary surgical procedure.

If someone's in cryo for burns, you don't just keep them unconscious, drag them into surgery, and remove their appendix if their appendix is perfectly fine. You also need someone's consent before you perform a surgery unless their life is in danger.

Really, cybernetics adn cloned limbs should all be perfectly affordable, plastic surgery should be so affordable that the only scars your characters would have would be ones they are intent on keeping. But that's a different thing entirely.

However! I am in no way objecting to, say, having NT personnel bending the rules for work productivity, or NT cutting corners with something or other.

[Guest]

NT doesn't really make law. It's a corporation. It has corporate regulations, but they are still subject to laws established by the state.

 

Lorewise, NT and the Republic of Biesel jointly govern the Tau Ceti System, NanoTrasen having a considerable amount of power, especially over the Free Trade Zone in which the Exodus and Aurora are.

[Guest]

If you can figure out a sensible, risk minimized method in which you break it to someone slowly about them being cloned, then I'd be fine with amending CMD protocol as it stands for now.

I'd highly recommend you read some of the Republic Commando novels if you can to get an idea on what goes on inside the mind of a clone. And not just "Oh, I'm a super leet commando", but more along the lines of, "I was either reborn or born from scratch in a cloning vat, with memories from my previous life or not. However, I do know that I am not the person that preceded me."

Just a touch on that, as well. The clone troopers found it very hard to fill the infamy surrounding the legend of the great Jango Fett, and that they were mere shadows of Fett's own glory. Compare this to a clone of a person that recently died of an accident. You break the news to them, and they find themselves questioning whether they are the real deal, or just a broken, incomplete shadow with nothing but memories going for them.

CMD is a very interesting psychological phenomenon to think about, given there are many possibilities and intricacies surrounding it. In terms of a roleplay perspective, it can either make or break the round.

So, honestly. If we revised this, I believe MDs would most definitely have to tread more carefully into the foreign, unpredictable territory of the psychology of a clone.

[EvilBrage]

Or we cut out cloning completely and just let players respawn after thirty minutes as someone else, or allow their brains to be integrated into a cyborg.

With the number of options we have of a player to re-enter the round, I've always been a bit unsure as to why one would want to come back as the same person. It removes the permanence of death which, in turn, causes it to be dealt with in a trivial manner. When someone dies on the station, people aren't even shocked any more - they go on with their lives assuming the deceased is going to be cloned.

With the combined fuckery in genetics as well as the strangeness surrounding clone memory disorder, maybe it's just a sub-department that we'd be better off without, or change their purpose entirely. I briefly touched on switching genetics from a player-oriented job to a mob-oriented one in which the geneticists could "program" various lobotomites to perform menial tasks like cleaning the station, dragging SSD people to dorms, et cetera (with the possibility of adding in dangerous commands like attacking particular individuals.)

(P.S. Not that I actually expect this to happen, but just tossing the idea out there.)

[Guest Marlon Phoenix]

Or we cut out cloning completely and just let players respawn after thirty minutes as someone else, or allow their brains to be integrated into a cyborg.

With the number of options we have of a player to re-enter the round, I've always been a bit unsure as to why one would want to come back as the same person. It removes the permanence of death which, in turn, causes it to be dealt with in a trivial manner. When someone dies on the station, people aren't even shocked any more - they go on with their lives assuming the deceased is going to be cloned.

With the combined fuckery in genetics as well as the strangeness surrounding clone memory disorder, maybe it's just a sub-department that we'd be better off without, or change their purpose entirely. I briefly touched on switching genetics from a player-oriented job to a mob-oriented one in which the geneticists could "program" various lobotomites to perform menial tasks like cleaning the station, dragging SSD people to dorms, et cetera (with the possibility of adding in dangerous commands like attacking particular individuals.)

(P.S. Not that I actually expect this to happen, but just tossing the idea out there.)

 

Actually...

...

Permadeath might really cut down on the triviality of death we have, and give it more of an OOMPH. Or at the very least, make cloning much, much more complicated of an affair.

[Johnny Mnemonic]

Actually...

...

Permadeath might really cut down on the triviality of death we have, and give it more of an OOMPH. Or at the very least, make cloning much, much more complicated of an affair.

 

Keep in mind a lot of players intigrated being a clone as a perma IC thing.Cloning should be an option, but discouraged. Not in any way that would break clone characters though. Possibly a good idea would be to make cloning a high risk-high reward option and cyborgificaton the much safer, preferred option.

[mrimatool]

Well here's an idea, if Cloning was removed, we could make it a highly experimental procedure that Central Command has to authorise. So it still exsists IC but isn't as readily available. OOOR we have a way of researching it through RnD maybe with incredible resource requirements so that it's not something scientists can just power to?

I agree death is trivial and it's hard to grieve for someone IC when Jade Rathel shouts "shut up, loser she's being cloned"

I agree this is getting off topic. But a decent point has been raised, maybe a new thread to discuss it before Delta has a breakdown?

[Guest]

uwotm8

I'm honestly against that suggestion, even if it were to be put into another thread. Removing an entire arm when you could just treat the mild infection is a bit drastic.

Revising CMD, perhaps make cloning more frowned upon ICly rather than implementing silly OOC mechanics such as chances for brain damage or something even more dumb, would be a more valid suggestion without having to change much.

The issue I see sometimes that causes me to, 'break down', per se, is when people start suggesting changes that don't actually fix the problem or just make it worse. We need to think and work a little more carefully when suggesting big changes. Foresee some possible outcomes. Not, always the awful parts of it. Foresee the possible good, as well. And, be sure to make rebuttals about why you believe an issue that has been brought up about a suggestion isn't going to change much.

Just a little something to think about, is all.

[Jamini]

Well here's an idea, if Cloning was removed, we could make it a highly experimental procedure that Central Command has to authorise. So it still exsists IC but isn't as readily available. OOOR we have a way of researching it through RnD maybe with incredible resource requirements so that it's not something scientists can just power to?

 

This boils down to "Let's not have people cloned ever" realistically. If that becomes the case I'll not be interested in hanging around here anymore. This is in no way, shape, or form a good solution to this "problem" (which is in fact not even a problem at all).

A large, large part of the draw that keeps me in SS13 is that my character is able to function and continue to function in an extremely high-risk environment even after death. The only thing that keeps me playing when I have a character killed off is the chance of revival. If that is removed, I do not see myself even remotely interested in remaining on the server. SS13 mechanics are designed around the players being extremely fragile and easy to kill. In-round your chance of revival is already quite low, and effectively removing the only reliable way to remain in the round is completely the wrong way to go about "fixing" CMD.

If anything, cloning is a vehicle for a great deal of roleplay and IC debate. I would much prefer that cloning be made more commonplace and easier than making it is rare and uncommon. We are in a setting several hundred years in the future, I see no reason why we cannot have a practical, easy technique to restore the recently deceased outside of wishing to play a needlessly dystopian work simulation game.

If you really want to remove cloning, then you better damn well make human mobs significantly tougher to compansate.

[Erik Tiber]

NT doesn't really make law. It's a corporation. It has corporate regulations, but they are still subject to laws established by the state.

 

Lorewise, NT and the Republic of Biesel jointly govern the Tau Ceti System, NanoTrasen having a considerable amount of power, especially over the Free Trade Zone in which the Exodus and Aurora are.

It makes no sense for NT to be a government or make laws. They can not override the laws of the Sol Alliance. Furthermore, I see absolutely no reason for the government to cede legislative authority to a corporation, that is basically just completely surrendering your own sovereignty, and I see no reason that NT would go through the effort of legislating and enforcing laws, seeing as that is hardly profitable while also being rather costly.

Maybe Biesel contracts a lot of government work out to NT, that's perfectly believable, that's actually very plausible. But it's quite silly to change NT from being a corporation to being a country. It sorta misses the point.

Besides, within context, I seriously doubt that the Sol Alliance would tolerate Nanotrasen having a policy of cutting off limbs without consent and falsifying medical records left and right. The government has a vested interest in not having corporations make a mockery of the medical records of their systems. Every single institution that makes use of these records would object. Furthermore, it violates the most basic concepts of human rights to just cut off someone's arms and legs for their own good simply to delay some mental trauma. There are competent psychologists. It is seriously much less expensive to not engage in an extensive, systematic campaign of medical fraud and record falsification.

If you can figure out a sensible, risk minimized method in which you break it to someone slowly about them being cloned, then I'd be fine with amending CMD protocol as it stands for now.

I'd highly recommend you read some of the Republic Commando novels if you can to get an idea on what goes on inside the mind of a clone. And not just "Oh, I'm a super leet commando", but more along the lines of, "I was either reborn or born from scratch in a cloning vat, with memories from my previous life or not. However, I do know that I am not the person that preceded me."

Just a touch on that, as well. The clone troopers found it very hard to fill the infamy surrounding the legend of the great Jango Fett, and that they were mere shadows of Fett's own glory. Compare this to a clone of a person that recently died of an accident. You break the news to them, and they find themselves questioning whether they are the real deal, or just a broken, incomplete shadow with nothing but memories going for them.

CMD is a very interesting psychological phenomenon to think about, given there are many possibilities and intricacies surrounding it. In terms of a roleplay perspective, it can either make or break the round.

So, honestly. If we revised this, I believe MDs would most definitely have to tread more carefully into the foreign, unpredictable territory of the psychology of a clone.

I'm not sure the situation is all that comparable. Jango Fett was a famous bounty hunter with a huge reputation as a badass. This does not apply to every other clone. Regardless, being a clone means that the person will have to face identity issues. They won't just flat out break down permanently, since that isn't really how psychology works.

By telling people they are clones, you avoid having to falsify medical records (which should be illegal), cutting off limbs involuntarily (Which is highly unethical and makes no sense, and should be double illegal), and can simply get them some therapy. They should not be driven completely insane and it can lead to roleplay.

If you have any evidence that people would be driven completely insane, I'd like to hear it. I however asked a lawyer about the legality of all this, hypotehtically, and basically the current CMD protocols violate the most basic and fundamental aspects of law that it would make just as much sense if NT reintroduced literal human slavery.

What's more important, however, is exactly why stuff like CMD protocols are illegal. They violate very basic legal principles, and by having these practices be legal, you've pretty much opened the door for very very nasty things. Basically, a corporation can now sedate you and cut off your limbs at will if they feel the need. This isn't consensual, nor is it necessary. This system is extremely open to abuse, since you're basically setting the precedent that non-government officials can, at will, sedate and mutilate you, then lie to you afterwards. Medical records would not be very useful if healthcare providers have government sanction to routinely falsify them, and a procedure like cloning should come with absolutely massive implications for healthcare. Why wouldn't corporations just routinely harvest people for organs under this paradigm?

[mrimatool]

Has to be said, Nanotrasen shouldn't be seen as a good company, EVER. and I've never known them to pretend to be one

[Guest]

CMD protocol was designed as an IC excuse to stop shitheel chucklefucks over at baystation, (where I think the idea was originally formed?) From going from 0 to 80 in 2 seconds when they have the tiniest hint they were a clone, and start massacring people because muh PTSD. The issue here was actually OOC, so that's why it didn't make sense.

[Erik Tiber]

CMD protocol was designed as an IC excuse to stop shitheel chucklefucks over at baystation, (where I think the idea was originally formed?) From going from 0 to 80 in 2 seconds when they have the tiniest hint they were a clone, and start massacring people because muh PTSD. The issue here was actually OOC, so that's why it didn't make sense.

...Well, this makes more sense now.

That's a problem with those players. I don't think we should so massively compromise basic common sense for those sorts of people. People have ample opportunity to chucklefuck elsewhere. I would take the negligible increased risk presented by these people disrupting a round over the much larger annoyance caused by adopting a policy that makes no sense, especially when said policy has such extremely wide-reaching implications. Not adopting that policy means that you have less roleplay opportunities as well for players who actually do want to roleplay their character's reactions.

If clones being violently insane is a problem, then you could simply make sedatives be standard issue when you tell the patient the news. Or perhaps keep a nearby doctor ready with a loaded syringe gun.

If they normally engage in their killing sprees after being released, then honestly, the problem is mostly with these players who somehow believe that being cloned would instantly drive their characters into a murderous rampage.

 

Has to be said, Nanotrasen shouldn't be seen as a good company, EVER. and I've never known them to pretend to be one

Yes, but they won't do something so obviously horrible, for so little gain, which would attract so much government ire.

In fact, since they're assholes, they may just expect these people to get back to work after a therapy session. Which is why clones don't automatically have mandatory leave for the entire rest of the shift.

[mrimatool]

CMD protocol was designed as an IC excuse to stop shitheel chucklefucks over at baystation, (where I think the idea was originally formed?) From going from 0 to 80 in 2 seconds when they have the tiniest hint they were a clone, and start massacring people because muh PTSD. The issue here was actually OOC, so that's why it didn't make sense.

...Well, this makes more sense now.

That's a problem with those players. I don't think we should so massively compromise basic common sense for those sorts of people. People have ample opportunity to chucklefuck elsewhere. I would take the negligible increased risk presented by these people disrupting a round over the much larger annoyance caused by adopting a policy that makes no sense, especially when said policy has such extremely wide-reaching implications. Not adopting that policy means that you have less roleplay opportunities as well for players who actually do want to roleplay their character's reactions.

If clones being violently insane is a problem, then you could simply make sedatives be standard issue when you tell the patient the news. Or perhaps keep a nearby doctor ready with a loaded syringe gun.

If they normally engage in their killing sprees after being released, then honestly, the problem is mostly with these players who somehow believe that being cloned would instantly drive their characters into a murderous rampage.

 

Has to be said, Nanotrasen shouldn't be seen as a good company, EVER. and I've never known them to pretend to be one

Yes, but they won't do something so obviously horrible, for so little gain, which would attract so much government ire.

In fact, since they're assholes, they may just expect these people to get back to work after a therapy session. Which is why clones don't automatically have mandatory leave for the entire rest of the shift.

 

Apollo used bay's things. CMD included, we split from Apollo and as we were Apollo players we used the things we were used to. It's a remnant I agree, but it wasn't us compromising for people. We just left it in because it worked at the time