Visegrad Canonization Application

[Kintsugi]

Type (e.g. Planet, Faction, System): Planet.

Describe this proposal in a single sentence (12 word maximum): A contested Solarian outer colony, former gulag, now warzone and military outpost.

How will this be reflected on-station? Primarily by on-station characters, though I am absolutely willing to implement Visegradi cultural dishes, beverages, and cultural garments and intend to do so should it be canonized. I also plan to add an accent for the planet.

Does this faction/etc do anything not achieved by what already exists? Yes. The most noteworthy aspect being that it'd be the first planet present in the wildlands as part of a warlord state.

Why should this be given to lore developers rather than remain player created lore? Player-created lore exists on a limited scale. The player creating it alone is typically the only person who will ever use it, and it is the responsibility of the player alone to have it represented. I believe the variety is the spice of life: Adding Visegrad will add more variety, and furthermore it will allow for representation of aspects of the lore that struggle to be represented on-server as-is - first and foremost among those being the wildlands. As no planets currently exist in the wildlands, Visegrad would be the first planet to be present in the wildlands, and the first under the administration of one of our warlord states. I am very fond of the wildlands and the warlords conceptually and narratively, and Visegrad is the perfect way to tie at least some of them into the server proper.

Do you understand that if this is submitted, you are signing it away to the lore team, and that it's possible that it will change over time in ways that you may not forsee? Yes.

Long Description: Contact Danse

Other notes: None!

Edited October 8, 2021 by DanseMacabre

[KattenHatten]

Quote

Trees similar to the sequoias of Earth - but even taller, with wood the color of rich ebony..

Maybe something special among their leaves, which save them from being struck by lightnings? Some special leaf composite, or maybe chemical solution, as to make it harder to ignite? Since lightnings are known to struck the highest point possible. It could make such trees an object of admiration for colonists, helping them to reinforce their homes from bad weather conditions.

Maybe something to do with water compound or atmospheric mix, that makes rain unable to extinguish the fire?

Edited July 4, 2020 by KattenHatten
Text beautification

[Carpe Venenum]

How come an outer ring colony is from Poland if Poland already didn't exist on the map at the time the outer ring colonies propped up? Moreover, even in the middle colonies, people don't generally come from a specific nationality - see Silversun:

Quote

Silversun is one of the first Middle Colonies, sometimes even being called a sister colony to New Hai Phong. As colonization had, by this point, become an effort run by the Alliance, the original colonists sent to Silversun were from all around Earth - no real nationality or ethnicity dominated, leading to a diverse set of backgrounds and beliefs being sent to Silversun. 

Outer colonies propped up way later, so how come there are only Polish people who decided to be colonists for this? This reads like a "Poland can into space" joke.

[Kintsugi]

On 08/07/2020 at 06:12, Carpe Venenum said:

How come an outer ring colony is from Poland if Poland already didn't exist on the map at the time the outer ring colonies propped up? Moreover, even in the middle colonies, people don't generally come from a specific nationality - see Silversun:

Outer colonies propped up way later, so how come there are only Polish people who decided to be colonists for this? This reads like a "Poland can into space" joke.

Poland *does* still exist on Earth’s map, and moreover Visegrad wasn’t colonized solely by Polish people. There is no lore rule stating that I cannot develop a colony with a specific set of ethnic groups in mind, regardless, and I approached multiple Human lore developers to see if Visegrad was compatible with basic autocanon rules long before I attempted to officially canonize it.

Edited July 9, 2020 by DanseMacabre

[KattenHatten]

18 hours ago, DanseMacabre said:

Poland *does* still exist on Earth’s map, and moreover Visegrad wasn’t colonized solely by Polish people. There is no lore rule stating that I cannot develop a colony with a specific set of ethnic groups in mind, regardless, and I approached multiple Human lore developers to see if Visegrad was compatible with basic autocanon rules long before I attempted to officially canonize it.

"..Since then, the population growth trend for humanity has been exponential, plateauing off slightly in the 21st century, but skyrocketing again with the emergence of planetary colonization. Approximately 20% of all humans live on Earth.

There was significant religious and ideological turmoil within humanity throughout its history, which often resulted in warfare and violence. In the 22nd Century the global economy collapsed by more than half.."

Could poland in it's current IRL state catch up a crew, able (no offense) to gather a whole bunch of highly-qualified specialists, drop them on a colonisation ship (food, materials, minerals, habitat stuff and other - built from a scratch) and say like "hey, you're now will be completely polish, understood? Or we'll come and nuke you" or something in that matter. They will have to do that in 100 years, to gather everything they need, because after that it would collapse into economic turmoil, and colonists would notice missing supplies and orders from earth, and after that, they would still have to stay polish. Or even to keep up records of them being polish, not some kind of "great god kin" or something.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mirosław_Hermaszewski - is the only polish dude that's even been to space. Could you imagine a whole ship being built with people of his kind? They would have to have food, water, supplies, communications, EVERYTHING. Untill a colony 'll become self-sufficient.

Edited July 10, 2020 by KattenHatten

[Kintsugi]

9 hours ago, KattenHatten said:

"..Since then, the population growth trend for humanity has been exponential, plateauing off slightly in the 21st century, but skyrocketing again with the emergence of planetary colonization. Approximately 20% of all humans live on Earth.

There was significant religious and ideological turmoil within humanity throughout its history, which often resulted in warfare and violence. In the 22nd Century the global economy collapsed by more than half.."

Could poland in it's current IRL state catch up a crew, able (no offense) to gather a whole bunch of highly-qualified specialists, drop them on a colonisation ship (food, materials, minerals, habitat stuff and other - built from a scratch) and say like "hey, you're now will be completely polish, understood? Or we'll come and nuke you" or something in that matter. They will have to do that in 100 years, to gather everything they need, because after that it would collapse into economic turmoil, and colonists would notice missing supplies and orders from earth, and after that, they would still have to stay polish. Or even to keep up records of them being polish, not some kind of "great god kin" or something.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mirosław_Hermaszewski - is the only polish dude that's even been to space. Could you imagine a whole ship being built with people of his kind? They would have to have food, water, supplies, communications, EVERYTHING. Untill a colony 'll become self-sufficient.

Once again, Visegrad is not Polish. Please actually read the document, and I'd also encourage you to look at the one-world-government map of Earth for a better understanding as to what "Poland" means in this context.

Edited July 10, 2020 by DanseMacabre

[Tagada]

So, I'm Hungarian and this obviously resonates with me because seeing pieces of your own cultural aesthetic in lore is fun. Not quite the balkans, not quite the slav. Here are some remarks:

- I don't believe you need to fluff the setting any more. Sometimes a big tree is just a big tree, sometimes lots of rain is just exactly that, lots of water. Our lore is already high-sci-FI enough to be able to take in all sorts of technically impossible things, but that doesn't mean every single planet needs a special, unique, seen-nowhere-else attribute - besides, you've obviously focused on the culture more than the environment to give your write-up flavour.

- Perhaps in order to make the idea simpler, you could write the lore so that the colony foundation isn't specifically linked to Poland, but rather some other appropriately fictional regional grouping. (Something along the lines Visegrád Group or V4 RL). People are going keep getting hung up on the idea of this being a polish colony otherwise.

- Hungary, Austria and others in the region have a certain wine-growing culture, true, but not anywhere near as distinctive and large as for liquor (Palinka, Vodka, Becherovka, etc... ). Slovakians in particular make several types of tree-sap based popular drinks which would possibly fit with your arboreal theme better.  (Ex.: Austrian zweigelt is an objectively /bad/ wine. It's small wonder most countries in the region prefer their vino white and with soda.)

- This is a question of personal preference but... the rogatywka already looks weird and retro RL. They're also rarely worn outside official events and are virtually unknown outside poland. Why? Why not a kucsma? Or some other traditional head-dress that people actually still use in the 21th?

[Kintsugi]

6 hours ago, Tagada said:

So, I'm Hungarian and this obviously resonates with me because seeing pieces of your own cultural aesthetic in lore is fun. Not quite the balkans, not quite the slav. Here are some remarks:

- I don't believe you need to fluff the setting any more. Sometimes a big tree is just a big tree, sometimes lots of rain is just exactly that, lots of water. Our lore is already high-sci-FI enough to be able to take in all sorts of technically impossible things, but that doesn't mean every single planet needs a special, unique, seen-nowhere-else attribute - besides, you've obviously focused on the culture more than the environment to give your write-up flavour.

- Perhaps in order to make the idea simpler, you could write the lore so that the colony foundation isn't specifically linked to Poland, but rather some other appropriately fictional regional grouping. (Something along the lines Visegrád Group or V4 RL). People are going keep getting hung up on the idea of this being a polish colony otherwise.

- Hungary, Austria and others in the region have a certain wine-growing culture, true, but not anywhere near as distinctive and large as for liquor (Palinka, Vodka, Becherovka, etc... ). Slovakians in particular make several types of tree-sap based popular drinks which would possibly fit with your arboreal theme better.  (Ex.: Austrian zweigelt is an objectively /bad/ wine. It's small wonder most countries in the region prefer their vino white and with soda.)

- This is a question of personal preference but... the rogatywka already looks weird and retro RL. They're also rarely worn outside official events and are virtually unknown outside poland. Why? Why not a kucsma? Or some other traditional head-dress that people actually still use in the 21th?

I’m currently on vacation and returning this Friday. I’ll get back to you then. In the mean time, thanks for your feedback! However, I will address one of your bullet-points while I’m busy with my pre-fishing car ride.

 

As far as a fictional grouping is concerned, the “Poland” of this context refers to the Polish province of Earth in our lore - as opposed to national Poland. The Polish province of Earth consists of the national territories of Poland, Hungary, and Slovakia- which are, of course, three of the four Visegrad-4 countries. So trust me, the V-4 were in my mind while I was writing this! Czechia is just part of Germany in our lore, quite unusually.

Edited July 21, 2020 by DanseMacabre

[Kintsugi]

On 21/07/2020 at 05:37, Tagada said:

- Hungary, Austria and others in the region have a certain wine-growing culture, true, but not anywhere near as distinctive and large as for liquor (Palinka, Vodka, Becherovka, etc... ). Slovakians in particular make several types of tree-sap based popular drinks which would possibly fit with your arboreal theme better.  (Ex.: Austrian zweigelt is an objectively /bad/ wine. It's small wonder most countries in the region prefer their vino white and with soda.)

- This is a question of personal preference but... the rogatywka already looks weird and retro RL. They're also rarely worn outside official events and are virtually unknown outside poland. Why? Why not a kucsma? Or some other traditional head-dress that people actually still use in the 21th?

Hi, sorry for the long wait for a reply. Let me address your other points:

1. I actually love the idea of tree-sap drinks, and I thank you for mentioning it. I'll be sure to add it to the current draft.

2. The rogatywka is a little funny-looking, but I actually like it a lot, and that uniqueness is something that the lore stands to benefit from. As an aside, I should mention that it is not cultural-wear, but rather just military-wear. The rogatywka is something you would see soldiers and police officers on Visegrad wearing, not normal people. As for the kucsma- I do like the idea of having it be a Visegradian headdress, but I feel like it is something that'd fit more with another Human planet, like Vysoka (Especially Vysoka, really.)

[Kintsugi]

As a general update, Visegrad has seen some minor reworks. Sections I felt were obtuse or awkward have been removed, and a lot of language has been clarified. Additionally, there exists a provisional section on the state of affairs during the collapse, though obviously this is mostly filler and could be discarded. Additionally, hard numbers have been removed and so have unwieldy direct references to specific ethnic groups, with such information instead to be inferred by regional/history info and cultural lore.

[Haydizzle]

Gave this another read and it looks good as a concept. I have more of a meta question though as the above questions shot at my other thoughts.

On 24/06/2020 at 01:02, DanseMacabre said:

Do you understand that if this is submitted, you are signing it away to the lore team, and that it's possible that it will change over time in ways that you may not forsee?

The answer to this question struck me as odd. What is your intention on putting this up for canonization if the thought of it being changed is uncomfortable to a degree?

[Kintsugi]

11 hours ago, Haydizzle said:

Gave this another read and it looks good as a concept. I have more of a meta question though as the above questions shot at my other thoughts.

The answer to this question struck me as odd. What is your intention on putting this up for canonization if the thought of it being changed is uncomfortable to a degree?

Maybe uncomfortable was the wrong word- what I meant specifically was that it’s almost like a leap of faith - You’re handing over something you created for other people to maintain. I think a degree of butterflies in the stomach is reasonable, because the future of your creation is no longer in your hands. Does that make sense? It isn’t a serious matter of concern for me.

[Kintsugi]

After a number of grammar fixes made with the help of AijoTonami, I'm willing to pronounce Visegrad essentially complete in its current form. Unless some pressing change needs to be made, I will not be further editing or otherwise touching the document. Big thanks to everybody who reviewed it along the way!

[Kintsugi]

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1A_U-D_8ri20yVdRb4uYpfryXcF4B8b41Ei02dSFqID4/edit?usp=sharing - The following is a section that I do not want to include on the main document, but is absolutely important to Visegrad as a proposed addition. In essence, this document outlines the role I propose Visegrad would play in the wildlands, if canonized.

[Kintsugi]

https://i.gyazo.com/d316f1bcc48106126d31042435af8cd8.mp4
Pretzel made this and I thought it’d be nice to share it

Edited April 3, 2021 by DanseMacabre

[gyurka66]

if we are talking about hungarian cuisine don't leave out töltött káposzta (stuffed cabbage) . Also I'm pretty sure hungarian settlers would have brought pálinka (hungarian liquor made from all kinds fruits, most popular i think is plum) with them.

Few things about current hungarian culture but i think many things will change by 2300:

Pessimism - this is probably the most prominent cultural trait in hungary, people usually notice bad things more and we are always suspicious that there is a catch attached to every good new.

Family Centric - Strongest in the countryside. I think extended family is more important in hungary than elsewhere in europe and people don't tend to have huge networks of friends, mostly small friend groups.

Shifty-ness - This one i think is common in other post-communist countries but hungarians are distrustful towards the government and society at large by default. Most hungarians also feel kinda "separated" from their representatives in both local and country level administration and most don't think of the state as the sum of all citizens. This lead to a mentality where people try to get ahead circumventing rules and such, smaller forms of tax evasion are extremely common.

Valuing Independence - I really don't feel like writing this part now sorry

 

International relations:

Many hungarians have negative thougths about the following:

Romanians, Slovaks and Ukrainians.

Many hungarians have good opinions about:

Polish(though not nearly as much as they like us), Austrians, Croatians(kind of a stretch).

 

Maybe i'll write more if i feel like it. I hope it helps!

[stev]

At its core, my issue with Visegrad is that the cultural aspect is weak; despite the large word count of the overall text, the cultural interest and hard-to-define spice simply isn't there. While there could be some potential with the urban-rural divide with some development, as-is it's hard to envision what a character from Visegrad would look like, apart from being a bit gloomy and talking about rain and trees on a space station - there's very little to draw from for characterisation for a Visegradian, it lacks identity and distinction from any other random planet. This is, by the way, where the meming about Visegrad being the funny Poland planet comes in: There's not much to engage the reader culturally, so people naturally latch onto the Central European culture it's ostensibly rooted in as the most memorable aspect.

 

This would be absolutely fine as a weakness of the text if the author was willing to accept this is the case and work on it. No writer is perfect, nobody can hold the expectation that a work is gonna be flawless. What makes this damning is that the author, Danse, is completely unwilling to accept criticism on this, making that initial weakness a fatal flaw that's unlikely to ever be fixed or addressed while the text is under his control. Multiple people, myself included, have made this issue known in private and in public, and the response every time is to ignore, dismiss or discredit these criticisms as bad faith and invalid. 

 

All that being said, some of the feedback on this forum thread has been kind of unhelpful, I agree. However, when everyone who's interested in legitimate constructive criticism gets brushed off on Discord, you either don't get much feedback at all or draw on the less-than-constructive stuff.

 

I've said my piece. I hope you take this feedback onboard, as simply dismissing all criticism won't help you improve and grow as a writer. 

[Kintsugi]

One year a canonization application.

Time flies, really - truth be told, it is a little surprising to think that it has been a whole year since I made this application. It's a funny thing to think about. I've bumped the thread discretely and not-so-discretely a few times in the past, but I decided to take this opportunity to make a bump that is more of an update than unashamed self-advertisement.

First I wanted to show off some sprites that I've made, were given to me by friends, or I have gotten permission to use: I'm getting ahead of myself, obviously, by having any sprites at all - but in my defense, they also served as creative exercises, practice, and backstory references. Some are better and some are worse, but I do want to thank the people who have contributed in this regard.

Second I wanted to answer a question I've gotten a few times: "Why has this application taken so long to be handled, Danse?" I can't give you any exact reason. After all, I am the guy applying, here, not the guy handling it. But it is my understanding that there are a number of factors contributing to it. First, the Human lore team has been very busy - and may continue to be so, even with a new deputy and the summer arriving. They have a lot on their plate, and really, they don't need to rush to handle anything something as secondary as a canonization application. There is also the fact that there is a bit of a reluctance to add any additional new Human lore locations - which is in part because there are so many already. My philosophy is "The more the merrier", but there are valid reasons to feel differently. I do feel that Visegrad would be fitting an important niche if added - being a warlord planet. (After all, no warlord yet has a planet.)

Third I have been told a few times to make a policy suggestion regarding the canonization application subforum - personally, I don't think it'd be a fair thing for me to do right now. Believe it or not, the human lore team has been very accommodating towards me and my questions, and the last thing I want to do is try to force them to give me any more attention than they already do. Again, these guys are volunteers with a lot of stuff on their plate. Maybe after the application is handled I'll make one - but only because there might be a genuine need to change how lore canonization applications are dealt with. There are a few that have sat for even longer than mine, after all.

Finally, I have gotten one other question - "Is Visegrad a Polish planet?"

oh my god no

Anyway, in all seriousness- thanks for reading. Coincidentally, this one-year anniversary is coincides with my first road test, ever, so consider it a bad omen if I fail.

[NewOriginalSchwann]

Accepted.