Merging the Borg Clerical Module into others

[Chada1]

This is a thread to discuss this PR

The premise is that we're removing the Clerical Module, there are a solid few reasons for it, I'm making this thread because a good friend heavily disagrees with me and has counterpoints towards the purpose, and I think it's fair that I should make a thread. My points are as follows:

1. The Clerical Module has a very limiting niche, the niche being: Paperwork. No, really, that's the entire niche.
2. The niche that Clerical has (Paperwork) is better suited spread out through several of the other Modules, Service can use the tools to make bar menus, put up flyers, etc. Research can use it to catalogue fauna, write a thesis, take notes from scientists. Mining (Now Supply) can use it to stamp orders, help illiterate (Or lazy) crewmembers fill out orders, etc.
3. The actual baseline utility of a 'borg module is very important gameplaywise, because unlike IPCs or any other Crew race, there are a limited number of 'borgs per round on average. There isn't a whole lot of utility that 'paperwork' alone can bring to the round. (1-3 'borgs per round on average, so each of these 3 need to be able to bring a lot of utility to the round)
4. The best argument has been that Clerical 'borgs bring roleplay to the round, but there's nothing they do roleplaywise that a Service or other 'borg module couldn't also do if given the roleplay tools.

Is there anyone who disagrees with these arguments? Why should we keep Clerical as a module when faced with these realities and why shouldn't we merge their tools (Especially if they're so positive for roleplay and have very little gameplay detriment) to Research, Supply (Old Mining) and Research?

Edited August 10, 2020 by Chada1

[The Stryker]

Personally, I disagree with removing the clerical module simply because even if you shift the tools to another module, that changes the expectation of the cyborg and it's suddenly bwoinkable/reportable for a whole slew of other activities. I don't think we should be cutting things down for the sake of "utility" as this is a roleplaying game first and foremost. Additionally, we don't always hit the borg cap.

Regardless, if people want clerical to go, this seems to be the best way to go about it. What about the capacity of a pen for every borg to give that limited clerical capacity to every department?

[Chada1]

56 minutes ago, The Stryker said:

Personally, I disagree with removing the clerical module simply because even if you shift the tools to another module, that changes the expectation of the cyborg and it's suddenly bwoinkable/reportable for a whole slew of other activities. I don't think we should be cutting things down for the sake of "utility" as this is a roleplaying game first and foremost. Additionally, we don't always hit the borg cap.

Regardless, if people want clerical to go, this seems to be the best way to go about it. What about the capacity of a pen for every borg to give that limited clerical capacity to every department?

If a Service 'borg is being bwoinked for having a preference (over other service work) for assisting Crew with paperwork that sounds like it needs a staff complaint, because that mod/admin is really overstepping their bounds. And if giving 'borgs the equipment to do things = They have to do things to people, that's also a sign that there's an emphasis on playing your 'borg as efficiently as possible without concern for roleplay, which is a SERIOUS problem. (So this is just plainly not true) We should be cutting things down because they're not positive for gameplay/roleplay (And that includes removing modules that don't contribute much to rounds).

A Service 'borg can choose not to work in the kitchen/bar unless commanded to, and it can choose to focus on doing paperwork for people no different than Clericals do now, even with these changes. If OOCly people are trying to force them to, that needs to be stopped, since it's practically forcing 'borgs to powergame (Do things as efficiently as possible with no regard to their character) This was the entire point of the new law blurb at the bottom that says 'Your laws refer to your character, not the player.' that I explicitly had added.

Giving every 'borg a pen isn't enough to satisfy this because they also need to be able to hold paper, (which requires the paperwork gripper) and all of this other stuff, giving them enough tools to do this basically gives the entire clerical modules' toolset to another module.

Roleplay does not mean we should ignore gameplay.

Gameplay does not mean we should ignore roleplay.

Roleplay and gameplay should support each other, currently, it doesn't in this situation. A clerical 'borg has almost no utility at all, that's not good for balance when 'borg slots are limited. It's that simple. And slots not being filled is even worse, because it means we have a 'borg slot occupied that can't do most of the services of other 'borgs (1 out of a possible 2). Nearly none of it.

All of the roleplay abilities of the Clerical are still there with the tools being given to other modules, there's actually no loss here.

Edited August 10, 2020 by Chada1
Fixed a typo.

[Myazaki]

I disagree with this PR for two reasons:

1. More qualitatively, I have played rounds (on Baystation admittedly, but the 'borg modules are more or less identical there) as a Clerical 'borg where it has felt very different playing one than a Service 'borg. The expectations are different for your services, and the possibilities are different as a traitor 'borg. And as 'borgs are bound by their laws, it is harder to just ignore them to go and do paperwork if you could be doing more good feeding the crew due to a lack of a Chef or something. 
   I do agree it is a bit lacking in features. I suggest adding modules to it to expand its skill in paperwork-fu.
   e.g. Fax Machine Module, Photocopier Module, Paper Shredder Module, Translator Module (re-broadcasts chat from one language to another for other people to hear) give them more languages than the other 'borgs (reduce the languages the other 'borgs have) [1].
2. I don't like that you've given multiple 'borgs the chameleon stamp emag item. That item will get tedious if overused, I'd prefer if every module had its own unique emag item(s).

[1] - At some point I'm planning on making paperwork, announcements etc. respect language. So this may increase the role of a Clerical 'borg in helping with communications.

Edited August 10, 2020 by Myazaki

[Chada1]

7 hours ago, Myazaki said:

I disagree with this PR for two reasons:

1. More qualitatively, I have played rounds (on Baystation admittedly, but the 'borg modules are more or less identical there) as a Clerical 'borg where it has felt very different playing one than a Service 'borg. The expectations are different for your services, and the possibilities are different as a traitor 'borg. And as 'borgs are bound by their laws, it is harder to just ignore them to go and do paperwork if you could be doing more good feeding the crew due to a lack of a Chef or something. 
   I do agree it is a bit lacking in features. I suggest adding modules to it to expand its skill in paperwork-fu.
   e.g. Fax Machine Module, Photocopier Module, Paper Shredder Module, Translator Module (re-broadcasts chat from one language to another for other people to hear) give them more languages than the other 'borgs (reduce the languages the other 'borgs have) [1].
2. I don't like that you've given multiple 'borgs the chameleon stamp emag item. That item will get tedious if overused, I'd prefer if every module had its own unique emag item(s).

[1] - At some point I'm planning on making paperwork, announcements etc. respect language. So this may increase the role of a Clerical 'borg in helping with communications.

The problems with these two things Mya are kinda extreme (And I've kinda went on them in other points)

1. No matter how many things you add to the Clerical module, it will still only ever do one thing -- Paperwork. Paperwork has no gameplay purpose, maybe it was different on Bay, I know Bay forces/forced you to do a lot of extreme roleplay things like saluting immediately on seeing anyone depending on what you were playing, and I imagine paperwork also falls into a similar thing there, but on Aurora at least, paperwork is only as useful as the characters in the round deems it is. This limits the Clericals utility as a whole to be very very low, because as it is, you will only ever have the niche of paperwork. Even if you remove Languages from the other 'borgs and give Clericals that, there actually aren't enough languages in the game that aliens use (That Crew normally can't speak/understand in some way) that'd make it useful.
2. (Continuing from #1) Also, being bound by your laws doesn't excuse you of needing to roleplay a character, as I said before, there's explicitly a warning at the bottom of the laws as of now (That I had added) telling you, you should follow the laws as according to how your character is best at, in regards to serving/protecting Crew, not to what's the most effective in general. If a Service 'borg is best at paperwork, it makes total sense from an IC perspective to focus on going around and helping Crew with paperwork. Having the tools to do something doesn't mean your character has to be good at it, they could just deem themselves more useful somewhere else, doing something else.
3. The Chameleon Stamp emag item can actually do nothing but contribute to roleplay, it would depend you to play 1 of 3 modules, Service, Supply, Research, all of these make a whole lot of sense to be forging documents too. I get traditionally we limit 'borgs to one Antag module, but that's really just limiting Antag 'borgs (Which already have it extremely rough compared to non-Silicon Antags, since they can't buy uplink items) for no real gameplay/roleplay reason, just because it always has been that way according to other servers.
4. There is nothing the Clerical toolset has, and very few things that I've heard suggested to add to it, that wouldn't be better just given to other 'borg modules. Due to the Clerical module being entirely reliant on roleplay and the tools it has being mostly isolated from the normal gameplay loop, the actual tools it gets are all focused on enhancing roleplay. WHY SHOULD OTHER MODULES NOT BE GIVEN ROLEPLAY ENHANCING TOOLS TOO? this is a big question that is really puzzling me, nearly everything the Clerical module does, it would actually be more positive for roleplay if most other modules could do too. Let's go over this real fast. The Service Module, even if it did work in the Kitchen/Bar (Which it doesn't have to) could use the tape to put up fliers with Shift specials around, it could use the Pen/Paper dispenser to write a Menu for the bar, it could use the Quikpay module to charge people if the HoP/Chef/Bartender wants them to. The Research Module could take notes from Scientists, it could dispense the Station Directives that prevent Scientists from bringing things out of research, it could write a theory. The Supply Module could help Crew fill out orders if their character is lazy (or illiterate). These tools are positive for roleplay, but there's no real benefit to roleplay (Or mechanics for that matter) to isolating them to the Clerical, and that's near the entire niche it has.

This is the problem tho, no matter how many things we add to Clerical, it will only ever have a single niche (Paperwork) and it's still completely isolated from gameplay. It's a purely roleplay thing. Changing languages to need to be translated is one thing but it could only really be a piece of the puzzle in making Clerical actually useful, and then we question again why we'd limit that from other 'borgs too.

The second most isolated from gameplay is the Custodial module, but dirtyness is an actual mechanical thing, even if it doesn't do much. I plan to add a speedboost module to rescue soon, and I was going to give that to the Custodial module too. So not even the Custodial module is the same in this.

All of the Clerical tools being more positive to the roleplay and in general the round when given to the other modules is just icing on the cake here.

And again -- If mods/admins/staff in general are bwoinking 'borgs for not doing the most efficient thing at all times, the player should really make a Staff complaint because that sounds like the 'borg is being forced to powergame.

Edited August 10, 2020 by Chada1

[Myazaki]

I guess you've sold me on it, mostly.

I'd still like to see different modules having different emag items, though. (Or maybe multiple emag items) Just for some variety.

Edited August 10, 2020 by Myazaki

[Chada1]

14 minutes ago, Myazaki said:

I guess you've sold me on it, mostly.

I'd still like to see different modules having different emag items, though. (Or maybe multiple emag items) Just for some variety.

If you think up any way to give Clerical a new niche, please drop them here tho. Because that's an option too!

[StationCrab]

All borg modules currently have a well defined wheelhouse in which they operate. In my opinion so does the Clerical borg, but it is currently lacking tools to properly serve that function, and justify its existence, but this can be changed.

The Clerical borg's wheelhouse is as follows:

Providing utility and aid to, the Captain, Liaison, Head of Personnel, Journalist,  and to a lesser extent, CSI/Detective work. While all modules can and do assist these crew members, their modules are not directly designed to do so in a way that compliments these jobs. This post aims to change that and hopefully convince people that Clerical can and should be salvaged.

I will now list modules I feel would compliment this philosophy, and make the Clerical borg unique, useful, without denying basic functionality from other stationbounds. Modules that might seem overpowered or unbelievable if placed on every borg, but are strong enough to make Clerical unique and useful beyond just paperwork. These tools would be in addition to their current kit (which is currently planned to be distributed to other modules as this PR states).

Secure Storage Compartment 

A gripper that  is able to hold and store authentication disk, documents, briefcases, spare ID, it would be able to hold these things, but not use them itself encouraging borg interaction with the Captain, a place to hide things in times of need (Princess Leia and R2D2 anyone?) It can only store one object at a time, and the object is dropped if the Borg's chassis is opened and power cell is removed. This would give the Clerical borg the task of delivering sensitive objects between departments during times hazardous and dangerous for the crew.

Language Computer

An advanced piece of technology that allows the Clerical module to sufficiently mimic ALL known alien languages. To facilitate better communication and diplomacy in situations where it is needed. Lore developers can feel free to nix certain languages if they think that a synthetic could not reproduce them properly, like rootsong for example. While all bounds can understand most languages, they cannot speak all of them, I think this gives the Clerical borg a unique duty within its wheelhouse. It also makes sense that such software would require specialized hardware, so not all borgs would have the space to house this computer.

Voice Recorder

Coupled with the ability to print documents, this can allow the Clerical borg to serve as a voice recorder, discreetly record meetings. Keep notes for staff meetings. Aid the detective in conducting suspect interviews. The benefits of this would be that the Clerical module can store this data and reproduce it at any time in the form of a paper log, while the physical voice recorder the crew currently uses can be lost or stolen. It would also allow the journalist to conscript the Clerical borg to interview the crew and return with interesting tidbits for articles. The Liason can also make use of this feature for their interviews, it opens up the Clerical borg's usefulness to multiple departments that don't necessarily have a module that exists within their wheelhouse.

Document Printer/Document Shredder

While this does fall within paperwork, the ability to print documents from the Borg's laptop using the crew medical/security records program should be a feature. Also the ability to print photographs stored on the borg's database. This can be unlimited or use an Ink Synthesizer mechanic, whatever the developer decides. I will admit this function could be ported to other modules as well, but I think a high quality dedicated photo copier/printer would take up space within a chassis, and it is specialized equipment for a Clerical module in my opinion. 

The shredder module would simply allow the Clerical borg the ability to destroy any object made of paper permanently, like the Decompiler. This can be used for both good and evil.

CSI Tools

This is not the return of the security borg, it is simply a way to get the Clerical module involved with the CSI for investigations. Give the borg access to some of the CSI's kit. Things I consider are fibre collection module/swabs, evidence bag dispenser, a gripper that can hold said bags. Fingerprint scanner, luminol bottle, essentially everything that allows the gathering of evidence in the absence or in tandem with the acting CSI. This gives Clerical a truly unique function outside of just paperwork, and it even allows the CSI to task it with collecting data from currently breached or hazardous crime scenes that organics could not survive, speeding up their ability to collect crucial evidence for their case. This combined with the Document Printer gives the Clerical borg some serious roleplay opportunities.
_______________________________________________________________________

This section is for modules I think would be really cool and unique, but might require some coding or may be impossible. It also has modules that I am torn on, but might make a compelling case to some to salvage this module. I am not a coder so, if anyone wishes to chime in on the possibility of these please do.

Holo Projector

This would give the AI an option to use the Clerical borg as a mobile holopad emitter. Think of times when telecommunications is down, or the crew finds themselves in an area where discrete AI communication is required. There have been so many times when my AI master wants to participate in some RP situation and is essentially begging me to translate what is happening for them, I think it would be neat if the Clerical module could beam the AI in so they can participate. If possible it would also allow crew members to place holocalls to all existing holopads from the Clerical borg, giving another option for communication assistance and message delivery, something that fits within the Clerical modules wheelhouse.

Black Light

It gives the clerical module the ability to toggle its standard light into a UV light. Allowing it to reveal cleaned up blood, footprints, ect. Much the same as Luminol does. This would get even stronger if the borg has the floodlight module upgrade, allowing it to accompany CSI to crime scenes and set up as an aid for investigation, leading to more interesting RP.

Portable Newscaster

To further facilitate RP between the Clerical module and the Journalist, this would allow the player to toggle on Newscaster announcements from its chassis speakers, as well as print newspapers of any current channel available on the newscaster terminal. The newspaper printing is arguably something the Service module could have as well.

Automatic Translator

A toggle-able module that will directly translate whatever alien language it hears in the chat. I have seen circuit creations do this, I think it would be a pretty cool device for this module to have, but at the same time I understand that this may take away some RP opportunity from the borg player. IE giving us the freedom to choose to not translate insults and simply smooth things over.

Wide Angle Lens

Give the Clerical borg the ability to take photographs that show more tiles than the standard, as well as be in full color, revealing more details in the log when examining the photograph. This module's printer would be the only one capable of printing these specialized photographs, allowing the Journalist to add something special to their articles, or the CSI to more efficiently catalogue an incident.

Announcements Computer

Give the Clerical Borg access to station wide announcements, much like the AI. This would allow it to roleplay with Command staff, relay information to the crew under orders, or even provide some interesting antag options if malfunctioning unique to this module.
_______________________________________________________________________

I realize the borg player base is rather small, and I may be the one of the few who actually selects the Clerical module despite its mechanical weaknesses, but that is because I see the potential for engaging roleplay with this module.

It does deserve to exist, it deserves to be properly developed, and I hope that my ideas justify at least the potential this module has for a great Roleplay addition to Aurora. I feel quite strongly about this one, and I would hate to lose another borg module without at least trying to salvage it.

I would also like to thank all the developers who have been making amazing changes to borgs over the past few months, you are all making my play time here infinitely better. I just must respectfully disagree with this PR, and these are my proposed alternatives. To clarify I am not against the buffs to the Supply module, I have always felt that the Mining Borg should be allowed to participate in its wheelhouse of supply to a greater extent, and renaming it to a supply borg and giving it the ability to process orders is a great step!

[Chada1]

12 minutes ago, StationCrab said:

All borg modules currently have a well defined wheelhouse in which they operate. In my opinion so does the Clerical borg, but it is currently lacking tools to properly serve that function, and justify its existence, but this can be changed.

The Clerical borg's wheelhouse is as follows:

Providing utility and aid to, the Captain, Liaison, Head of Personnel, Journalist,  and to a lesser extent, CSI/Detective work. While all modules can and do assist these crew members, their modules are not directly designed to do so in a way that compliments these jobs. This post aims to change that and hopefully convince people that Clerical can and should be salvaged.

I will now list modules I feel would compliment this philosophy, and make the Clerical borg unique, useful, without denying basic functionality from other stationbounds. Modules that might seem overpowered or unbelievable if placed on every borg, but are strong enough to make Clerical unique and useful beyond just paperwork. These tools would be in addition to their current kit (which is currently planned to be distributed to other modules as this PR states).

... (Tons of tools) ...

I realize the borg player base is rather small, and I may be the one of the few who actually selects the Clerical module despite its mechanical weaknesses, but that is because I see the potential for engaging roleplay with this module.

It does deserve to exist, it deserves to be properly developed, and I hope that my ideas justify at least the potential this module has for a great Roleplay addition to Aurora. I feel quite strongly about this one, and I would hate to lose another borg module without at least trying to salvage it.

I would also like to thank all the developers who have been making amazing changes to borgs over the past few months, you are all making my play time here infinitely better. I just must respectfully disagree with this PR, and these are my proposed alternatives. To clarify I am not against the buffs to the Supply module, I have always felt that the Mining Borg should be allowed to participate in its wheelhouse of supply to a greater extent, and renaming it to a supply borg and giving it the ability to process orders is a great step!

The CSI, Camera, Newscaster, Portable recorder, and other tools are plenty enough to convince me to keep it, I'll try to get some of them working.

They fit the criteria I've been saying it needs to fit, they're things no other module makes sense to have, and that wouldn't directly contribute to the others roleplay in a basic way, so they're actual niches the Clerical could have and be useful.

Tho I still think we have every every reason to give the current Clericals paperwork tools to other modules and I'm still going to try to do that.

Edited August 10, 2020 by Chada1

[niennab]

I don't agree with giving the clerical borg a CSI kit as it will turn the stationbound into a pseudo security role. The role of a forensic technician or crime scene investigator is one of analysis, investigation and a doctor of death. As such it doesn't really make sense for clerical to have that role.

Moreover without a CSI/FT, no one in security can do anything with the evidence unless they want to be bwoinked for job hopping. Moreover I can imagine if I were the forensic technician on board, I'd inevitably have to scream at the stationbound to leave when it gets to the site before my character and spams evidence gathering before I even have the chance to do my job.

[StationCrab]

26 minutes ago, niennab said:

I don't agree with giving the clerical borg a CSI kit as it will turn the stationbound into a pseudo security role. The role of a forensic technician or crime scene investigator is one of analysis, investigation and a doctor of death. As such it doesn't really make sense for clerical to have that role.

Moreover without a CSI/FT, no one in security can do anything with the evidence unless they want to be bwoinked for job hopping. Moreover I can imagine if I were the forensic technician on board, I'd inevitably have to scream at the stationbound to leave when it gets to the site before my character and spams evidence gathering before I even have the chance to do my job.

That last part makes me sad. It is a bummer that you feel like stationbound players would take away your job and not RP alongside you. Honestly with that logic you would be for removing stationbounds entirely, because they might snatch your job. I'm not sure that is a very good way of looking at this.

My vision of it is the borg aiding the CSI in dangerous places they can't reach, or storing and collecting data for cooperative analysis. 

As for your fears about it being in a security role, I wouldn't worry about it, it won't have cuffs or anything designed for security work, only evidence collection/cataloging, which is a very clerical thing to do, my proposed changes don't even approach autopsies or corpse analysis, that is something that module should not be able to do. 

If designed correctly, even if the borg collected every piece of evidence at the scene, it would have no way of analyzing it, and would require the CSI's input. Keeping with the borg philosophy of aiding the crew.

Edited August 11, 2020 by StationCrab

[Susan]

CSI kit for borg is a non-starter. They will take our roleplay and job away: here's why:

Every other module has an independent purpose and function. They bolster (but do not supplant) the departments they are assigned to. They do not overwrite other people's jobs or step on toes, given that engineering/medical/civilian gets a lot of work throughout the round. Basically, the existing modules can independently create your own roleplay. Clerical, however, has no real independent function and basically has to be chained to someone to justify existence. It only serves to be someone's paperwork assistant and nothing else.

If you want my real honest take, CSI or Journalist fixes would not do anything, they would just create a new problem. No other module would step on toes like them; CSI and Journalist are very independent single-person roles and especially Journalist has their own gimmick that they probably want to do without having to cater something that is basically dead weight outside of the very narrow application it would have. If people want to keep clerical, I mean - I've been disappointed plenty by a ton of changes that have happened. Wanting something old, outdated and underused to remain is not really an actual objective reason to keep it.

You can't always get what you want etc et al and hamfisting changes that create new problems isn't an answer from the way I'm looking at it.

Basically, modules like rescue or surgery help Surgeons or Paramedics but do not overtake them because they can't do everything. Say, you give clerical CSI tools. Either you allow them to pick the cards and stuff up with the gripper (which, like, you'd have to, because evidence makes 500 objects) so that means they can run results by themselves and replace CSI without actually supporting them OR it can't pick up evidence with its gripper and leaves a mess behind of 10 fingerprint cards and 6 fiber bags: useless.

In short:

Other modules cannot do everything their man job can do. This is why human workers are better. A CSI borg would do everything a CSI can but better, whereas a rescue module cannot replace a Paramedic because Paramedics can do more than them.

If I want a borg to help me, I'll get a borg to help me. I don't want to be saddled with them because they have such a narrow application they have to do my job for me. This doesn't fix the main issue of clerical needing to be up someone's bunghole to be relevant. Other cyborg modules are completely independent. You can be in a department with nobody or anybody. 

Edited August 11, 2020 by Susan

[Chada1]

I'm unsure of how to proceed here; With the added niche of minor evidence utility it made sense, but if we remove that, it falls mostly into the same pitfalls as it did before.

So I'm thinking we need to brainstorm another niche if we're not going to be adding CSI tools, or else I don't think it really can be salvaged. The other suggested tools are still extremely nice tho.

[Chada1]

Yup definitely let's get brainstorming that new niche. If not CSI/Journalism, what else could be added to it as a thing it could add utility to?

If no alternatives are given, I'm going to proceed with adding CSI utility. ?

Edited August 12, 2020 by Chada1

[Chada1]

This can be archived too, thank you. (Discontinued projects)

Edited October 28, 2020 by Chada1