Banned for "lying" despite not lying.

[MagnificentMelkior]

BYOND Key: Magnificent Melkior
Staff BYOND Key: BoryaTheSlayer
Game ID: b93-c26w
Reason for complaint: I was given a week long ban for no good reason, simply because Borya could not verify what happened and decided I must have been lying. The relevant incident began when I, as Warden, was in the kitchen ordering food. Shin Vosi said "help" "mining" and I was close by so I moved to investigate. I saw the aftermath of a fight between Shin and Bjorn Agni-son. Bjorn was a scientist so I was suspicious of him for being in mining in a fight. Shin said they were attacked by Bjorn with a gun, yet Bjorn seemed to be more injured. A borg began dragging them to medical. The officers had arrived on scene and were dealing with Shin, so I told them I would be going back to the Brig to wait for processing. My journey back to the brig took by along the same path as the borg that dragged Bjorn out, where I noticed the borg released him and he began sprinting away into science. Again, I was the closest officer and this time the only one who knew this was happening. I called out over radio that Bjorn was released by the borg and was running. A few seconds later I called out that he was hiding in R&D. The other security guards arrived after a bit, but Bjorn deployed the blast doors. The AI opened science up to let us in after him (a fugitive at this point, and highly suspicious).

In the heat of the moment, I failed to recognize that the regular security officers could be sent in to arrest him while I stayed outside and watched. I ran in and grabbed Bjorn, with intent to prevent him from fleeing further and to cuff him. He began striking me, and so I flashed him, which seemed to have no effect. So I just cuffed him while he was punching me (thanks brainmed). At no point during this exchange did I cause any harm to him. However, he was shot with disruptors by the security officers after he started attacking me. At this point, he was in custody and I walked him to medical to receive treatment and left for the brig, leaving the security officers and medical staff to take care of him. 

Over the radio, someone started crying about "the warden beating the shit out of Bjorn with no warrant" which is obviously not what happened (as the attached logs show). Evidently, this person or someone of similar confusion ahelped me. That's when BoryaTheSlayer bwoinked me. 

At first, Borya asked me about a rifle that I ordered from cargo at the start of the round. I never actually recieved this rifle (some other security guard picked it up and then gave it to the CE). But my intent was to just familiarize myself with a different weapon, as an ooc goal of mine is to learn the ins and outs of the game, and I've never had access to that weapon before. If my intent were simply to powergame and valid some antags, I was the warden, I could have armored up and obtained a shotgun or laser rifle from the armory, or carbine and riot shield. This was not my intent, though I do understand why BoryaTheSlayer was alarmed by this. I told them essentially this, and they moved on to asking me about the above described incident. Meanwhile I was reviewing the corporate regulations (as Bjorn was in the brig now), trying to find the code for simple assault, which is all I intended on charging him for (I had no evidence of the gun the miner complained about, though I had direct evidence of being punched by him (and shot with ling bone needles, but I didn't notice those until reviewing the logs to make this post))

I would like to point out that Borya's first message to me about the Bjorn incident used prejudicial language. [b]"What's up with you charging at Bjorn and Attacking him?"[/b]. I cuffed him, but I did not do a single hit point of damage to him, so I don't think its fair to say I attacked him. I made this case to Borya. Nontheless they asked my why I "ruthlessly" charged them down. I objected to the term ruthless, as again, I did not harm Bjorn at all. This is where things started to go badly. Borya then asked me "Why are you lying to me tho?" Which is, quite frankly, a poisonous statement. If they believe I'm lying to them, nothing I can say can change their mind. Their mind was simply closed to me from here on out, if not before. I asked them how I was lying, they said that "because of how I went about it" the fight immediately escalated into "Baton smacking" (false, no batons were used by anyone involved), and disruptor fire (true, Marc shot at him after he began to violently resist being detained. I don't think this was unreasonable of Marc, but even if it were it is not my action) 

Later in the conversation, Borya made sortof a summary of events, phrased in a way as to make me seem deceptive. "You say Bjorn was somewhat injured, but he was unconscious when the borg dragged him away. You say the borg spirited him away, but they brought him to medical because he was braindead." (this is not true, I dragged him to medical, he was talking in science and he talked again in medical before magically becoming braindead - and then he got better. IC, I rationalized this as medical equipment glitching out, after seeing him alive and well later.) 

"You chase Bjorn into science when they escape, but you immediately go to grab and cuff them with no word." True, but this is not a contradiction, I didn't lie.
"You buy a weapon at roundstart and claim to not have planned to use it, despite it being secret." Yes, as addressed earlier. I would have done the same thing on extended. There are slow rounds of secret as well. I just wanted to learn the game more. And I never followed up on the rifle, because I became busy with my in game duties and would not have had time to fuck around with an exotic weapon. As mentioned before, If I just wanted to hunt valids I'd have raided the armory for a laser rifle or something. I was the warden, this would have been easy. 

Moving to the end because this is becoming overly long, I corrected the record with Borya on their mistaken beliefs about what happened. They essentially just called me a liar again and said other players contradicted me. I told them to check the logs, they said they can't do that, and that if I disagree I should file a staff complaint. So here I am. As a kicker, they stated that they really didn't care about me beating Bjorn (I didn't do this anyway, but this just means that [b]my slight overzealousness in the heat of the moment is NOT, according to them, a bannable offense.[/b] A reasonable take, if you ask me, I am still learning and I don't think I did anything rising to the level of shitcurity. I only would have given them a simple assault charge, and then let them go on time served. Unfortunately I was banned right before I could free them. 

The only reason they banned me is that they think I was "lying to them throughout the whole ticket." Which I demonstrably was not. As such, I request to be unbanned, and to have this incident not count against me in any way.


Evidence/logs/etc:  The radio call that alerted me to the fight in mining.

 

 

 

Chat logs from his flight to R&D.

 

 

 

 

The confrontation in R&D. I admit that I didn't say anything to Bjorn here. I am not used to playing security and I will try to communicate more in the future. I was talking on the radio a lot but not with the suspect.

 

 

 

 

Bwoink part 1

Bwoink part 2 (some snippets have been omitted, as I did not screencap everything before closing my game client)

Additional Notes: To BoryaTheSlayer: It is very difficult to perfectly recall events while trying to focus on the present in the game as well as the ticket conversation. Nontheless I feel that I was as faithful as can be expected in my recollection of events to you. Upon scroll through my logs to take these screenshots, I did notice discrepancies. Namely, that I flashed Bjorn (still didn't harm him, and this didn't stop him, which is probably why I forgot about it), and I didn't say anything to Bjorn before the "combat" started in R&D. I had spoken to him just before that in mining, and had been discussing him on the radio with sec, and I believe I told you that said some throwaway like "stop running" to him when I in fact didn't. This wasn't a deliberate lie though, and I think we can agree that its not the soul of the issue here.

Edited November 9, 2020 by MagnificentMelkior
Putting comments on the evidence, and added Additional Notes section, and fixed broken html.

[StationCrab]

I was the borg. A point of clarification.

I did not release him. He unbuckled himself after healing himself. He was braindead and heavily damaged when I collected him, as a borg, I cannot unbuckle people, they have no hands. That is when the chase began. I don't know if it was you, but I saw an officer with a disruptor chase after him after he unbuckled himself and ran off.

There were antag actions in play here I believe, as Bjorn 'died' several times during the round. I don't have all the details, I didn't see who 'killed' bjorn, but I wanted to clarify my involvement.

Edited November 10, 2020 by StationCrab
grammar/fixes

[BoryaTheSlayer]

Hello! Going to point out some things for whoever handles this.

9 hours ago, MagnificentMelkior said:

Over the radio, someone started crying about "the warden beating the shit out of Bjorn with no warrant" which is obviously not what happened (as the attached logs show). Evidently, this person or someone of similar confusion ahelped me. That's when BoryaTheSlayer bwoinked me. 

I've told you at least once in the ahelp that this was not what caused the bwoink. It was completely irrelevant to the ticket.

 

9 hours ago, MagnificentMelkior said:

would like to point out that Borya's first message to me about the Bjorn incident used prejudicial language. [b]"What's up with you charging at Bjorn and Attacking him?"[/b]. I cuffed him, but I did not do a single hit point of damage to him, so I don't think its fair to say I attacked him.

I used "prejudicial language" based on what I have seen and heard. I also don't think it could be described as anything else but charging at the person head first and then getting handsy with them. Attack might not be the best verb here, but I digress.

The most important thing here is actually in your screenshot. What you were saying contradicted what others were saying. It was your word against others'. Based on your track record, I decided to believe others involved in the situation.

[MagnificentMelkior]

16 hours ago, BoryaTheSlayer said:

Hello! Going to point out some things for whoever handles this.

I've told you at least once in the ahelp that this was not what caused the bwoink. It was completely irrelevant to the ticket.

I don't mean to imply it was, just presenting a summary of what happened from my point of view. It does stand to reason though that if one person is loudly proclaiming something untrue about me that others might be doing the same (not to point the blame at anyone else for reporting what they believed to be true.)

 

 

16 hours ago, BoryaTheSlayer said:

I used "prejudicial language" based on what I have seen and heard. I also don't think it could be described as anything else but charging at the person head first and then getting handsy with them. Attack might not be the best verb here, but I digress.

The most important thing here is actually in your screenshot. What you were saying contradicted what others were saying. It was your word against others'. Based on your track record, I decided to believe others involved in the situation.

I understand you were following up on a report from someone, I'm just pointing out that as you say, attack isn't really a fair verb to describe what actually I actually did.

I also accept that in a he-said she-said situation, you've got to make a call. Especially if its multiple he's vs one she, to torture the idiom a bit. I'm not upset with you or anyone involved for that matter, I simply would like to be unbanned and have this incident not count against me for anything, in light of the facts of the case. A week long ban isn't going to kill me, but setting the record straight does matter to me. I'm pretty familiar with some medical and science roles and am trying to branch out and try new things. 

Since this conversation is open, I wanted to ask one other thing. Is it wrong of me to (for sake of arguments lets say its extended) order a marksman rifle (or some other unusual weapon) at round start and intend to practice with it if the round is slow? If so I can play on a low RP server or something for the sake of just learning OOC mechanics.

Edited November 10, 2020 by MagnificentMelkior
Spelling and Grammar

[MagnificentMelkior]

Bump

[Pratepresidenten]

Me and @Simon_the_miner will investigate this.

[Pratepresidenten]

As a verdict to this complaint, there is some right and there is some wrong.

For the wrong, we dont really feel there is much evidence here to prove that you were lying but instead it was more how you saw things from your end.

As for the right, the rest is pretty much spot on, minus your major disregard for your own health and safety, where you grabbed and cuffed the changeling, ignoring the fact that they were shooting a blinding bone dart at you as well as landing multiple blows with their fists.

The ban has already expired, but the reason will be adjusted to better reflect the situation.

With that, we're considering the matter resolved, and it will be closed in about a day or so.

[MagnificentMelkior]

4 hours ago, Pratepresidenten said:

As a verdict to this complaint, there is some right and there is some wrong.

For the wrong, we dont really feel there is much evidence here to prove that you were lying but instead it was more how you saw things from your end.

Alright, cool.

 

 

4 hours ago, Pratepresidenten said:

As for the right, the rest is pretty much spot on, minus your major disregard for your own health and safety, where you grabbed and cuffed the changeling, ignoring the fact that they were shooting a blinding bone dart at you as well as landing multiple blows with their fists.

The ban has already expired, but the reason will be adjusted to better reflect the situation.

With that, we're considering the matter resolved, and it will be closed in about a day or so.

No one brought up a bone dart until I noticed it when posting my screenshots and made a comment about it here. I did not ignore blindness or anything like that. Whatever dart he shot me with, it either did not work it had no noticable effect. My screen certainly didn't go black. I'd have said something about it and charged him with a higher degree of assault had I known he shot me with a bone dart. It was a line of red text in a wall of red text. If I had noticed it, it would have been worse for him because I'd have had to say he's got some kind of concealed weapon. And you know how the average security guard handles such situations. 


In grabbing and cuffing him, I was perfectly following the guide to security posted on these forums, which comes with a handy graphic, reproduced below.


The subject (Bjorn) was suspiciously in the mining department in a fight, despite being a scientist. The miner called for help against him, and said he randomly attacked. I happened to be close by, and a trained security agent (even if I was filling the billet of Warden this round), and so I responded. When the situation appeared handled, with a borg taking Bjorn off to medical, I left to go back to security. By luck, I happened to witness him escaping from the borg (despite laying prone and injured and iirc cuffed just a minute ago). I calledd out for backup over the security radio, and pursued. At this point, the subject was Passively resistant. He was obviously fleeing from me, and if I had stopped to type out an RP soliloquy he'd be long gone by the time I finished. He had a head start on me and I didn't want him to escape after probably assaulting a crewmember. He ran into science, and when he saw me approach he closed the blast doors. Still passively resistant. Still no indication he's a changeling to my character. I am a security officer. A random scientist with no weapon running after brawling (with no bloodshed that I recall) with another crewmember, is not some grave threat to my safety to be feared. When the AI opened the doors, I had good reason to suspect he would continue running away, so I escalated on the continuum force, as shown above. I went to contact controls (grab.) Verbal commands are not needed since he already escalated to Resistant (passive).

Then, I began to hear the sound of being punched and/or kicked. This is now technically assaultive, so I would have been within my rights to whip out my stun baton or pepperspray him. But I made the judgement that I could subdue him without involving that unpleasantness. I already had a grab, so I flashed him once (didn't seem to work) and then cuffed him. Compliance techniques. So a level of force below what I was allowed to use.

This is not a banable offense. This is doing my job in a nicer way than most would. My week long ban was unjustly applied, and I ask that it be expunged from my record. I understand it is very easy to say that my ban has already expired, so the appeal doesn't matter. But it does matter, because it affects my reputation here and will lead to further incidents like this one, where a mod bans me unjustly, citing my "record."

Edited November 17, 2020 by MagnificentMelkior

[Pratepresidenten]

Although this guide is elaborate and probably fine in most cases, it still does not give anyone the right to no-RP rush a situation. This is something you get punished for doing.

We are a high roleplay server, not a decisive action server. Roleplay always takes precedence over action wherever possible. And in your situation, it was most definitely possible.

The ban wasnt just over you grab cuffing someone in the manner you did, but as an escalation of punishment because you seem to have a hard time following our rules.

I would strongly suggest that you play other roles than security, and refrain from playing antag for the foreseeable future until you get a better grasp of the rules and how to better conduct yourself icly.

[MagnificentMelkior]

What sort of RP would have been expected? As the chart demonstrates, this was well passed verbal warnings. I was obligated to put hands on him to control this violent and evasive suspect. What RP is expected before hand? "I'm going to have to cuff you" and then sprint up on him? Should I have had macros prepared for canned security phrases to execute basic functions of the job without getting in trouble for it ooc? If I hadn't run up on him he would have attempted to escape again, as he had done consistently for about a minute irl time. What would you have done in my exact situation? 

Edited November 18, 2020 by MagnificentMelkior

[Pratepresidenten]

Any roleplay was to be expected. You are far too hung up on this chart to see the issue with your lack of interaction.

By the chart logic, if something violent happens, you are within your rights to grab a lethal gun, sprint up to the perp and execute him on the spot without uttering a word. That really isnt how you should operate.

As for what I would do, I would attempt to talk to them, both in person or over the radio. You didnt really do much of either.
And your statement of "If I hadn't run up on him he would have attempted to escape again, as he had done consistently for about a minute irl time." is not a very good one either. If you cannot wait for more than a singular minute before you start foaming at the mouth for valids, this server really isnt for you.

I dont really know what else to tell you if you dont understand that you need to roleplay on a roleplay server.

[MagnificentMelkior]

A minute isn't a long time to RP, granted. But it *is* a long time for some to take off running throughout the station, behind doors you don't have access to. Please don't frame my acknowledgement of the practical realities of ss13 gameplay as "can't wait more than a minute to" "foam at the mouth for valids." That's an absolutely absurd characterization of what I did.

My point, is that he ran, and ran, and ran. three separate encounters occured in the span of that minute. The first: wrapping off of the mining fight, having thigns seemingly handled, bjorn being taken to medical by a borg, so I start walking back to my office.

The second, him slipping away from the borg and sprinting away when he saw me, me chasing but him making it into science and closing the door behind himself. 
 with me talking to other security on the radio (explaining what I thought I saw (borg letting bjorn go and him sprinting into a locked door) which by the way qualifies as RP. Which I did while pursuing the "valid" As you can see, I didn't have much opportunity to talk to Bjorn. Had I prioritized talking to bjorn over sec, I'd be neglecting my training as a security officer to always call for backup and ACTUALLY neglecting my own health and safety around a belligerent, but seemingly unarmed, fugitive.

The third. Bjorn in R&D, me on the glass outside. This would normally have been the time for RP between he and I that you think its so egregious that I skipped (neglecting that actions are also RP, and that he, not I, chose to have a lowRp high tempo action encounter instead of a more conversational one. Remember this is the guy who jumped the miner suddenly and got beat up by them.

As I say, this would normally have been an opportunity for a stand off style RP, IF (crucially), IF he chose to. He also could just walk away out of sight and leave me hanging and disappear to do evil antag stuff. We never got to see his choice though, because almost as soon as I arrived the AI opened the doors to let me in (another officer asked it to). So rather than waste the opportunity and let him slip away, when he had made ZERO good faith effort to RP and had only been running away at every opportunity, playing dead/more injured than he was to get dragged off to medical to then escape from the borg... I did the logical IC thing and I went to lay lands on him to prevent him from just running off again. He then escalated the violence, and I responded with a gentle touch all things considered.

So what did I do wrong in all this? Why is it that I'm first accused of lying, then "disregarding my health and safety" then "ignoring blindness" and now "foaming at the mouth hunting for valids"? Why do I have to argue against not only my stated reason for being banned, but also whatever else is made up on the spot as a substitute reason? None of these are valid.

Edited November 18, 2020 by MagnificentMelkior

[Pratepresidenten]

We're going around in circles now, and I am not interested in doing so.

We looked into the ban, and we corrected the erroneous part of the ban reason, whilst updating it to better reflect the situation.
The verdict will not change, as you were in the wrong here.

And with that, this complaint is concluded. If you have more questions, feel free to contact me on discord.