Ballisticurity

[Susan]

Okay. For awhile now, Baystation has implemented what I lovingly call 'ballisticurity', that is, security with tasers replaced by less-than-lethal chambered pistols, seen below.

 

 

Now I know a lot of people immediately will be put off by this, but allow me to explain to you why this is better than our current security loadout, and how the mechanics function. The pistols are .45 caliber and utilize less-than-lethal rubber .45 rounds as part of standard operation. Lethal rounds are available in the armory for emergencies, however.

Another ammo type for these guns is called 'flash ammunition' - which is basically what it says on the tin. Signal flares in a sense and they flash people instead of utterly destroying them via bullets. In favor of replacing tasers or making tasers one-shot, I think giving security something like a pistol will lead to better security play. Why? Here is my reasoning. A lot of complaints I see of security involve them physically abusing people by either using excessive force (mutiple taser shots, repeated stun baton hits) - and then nothing happens to the officer, because none of this inflicts lasting damage. Security's first response to a situation is to make employment of their potent non-lethal weaponry, circumventing any analysis of whether this amount of force is needed because there is no repercussion to using it. You can use all 10 stun charges on a dude and he will be physically fine.

Pistols change this. Less than lethal rounds inflict minor brute but also agony damage. You can seriously wound someone with four shots. This adds depth to security play - not only is firing your gun wanton irresponsibility, but now when you abuse someone there is severe consequences to their health. So instead of security just rushing in with their baton out to beat people upside the head, now they're faced with a choice - the suspect is non-compliant, my flash will not work because he has glasses. Should I draw my gun? I could seriously injure this person and get into a ton of trouble. Excessive force charges have more weight. I'm sure you've all noticed that there's an increase and harsh crackdown on detectives now who fire their gun for minimal reasons. Imagine if this applied to the whole of security, encouraging them to better assess situations and the proper escalation of force.

Now I know some people will think this makes antagging harder. In all honesty, if it was just a taser gun you'd still be screwed. The only difference here is now when sec shoots you they have to worry about killing you, and if they have no reason to kill you, it makes them look bad. Wound infection, broken bones. In order to drop someone with the pistol you'd have to do 20~30 brute, and if the antag situation didn't call for it then the sympathies will be with you. Nuke op armor still resists agony damage, cult robes are immune to it, it doesn't severely weaken antagonist positions. Rather, it opens up a broader range of play for both security and antagonists, because now more thinking is involved. There's consequences to your actions as security, and it is very real.

Projectile weapons are kind of crap compared to energy guns most of the time anyway. Less accuracy. Less versatility. WINDOWS!!!

So to recap:

.45 LTL, 8~10 brute per shot, 60 agony (taser) damage.

.45 FLSH, flash rounds.

.45 LTHL, for emergencies only.

Removal of tasers, energy carbines and pistols keep stun setting, HoS keeps energy pistol.

At the very least, maybe a trial run is in order to see how it works out.

[Jamini]

This was trialed on bay, and immediately found to make security about ten times worse than they were with nonlethals. They've, to my knowledge, trialed it about three times and found EACH time that ballistics in no way, shape, or form made security any less rambo or more "thinking".

No. This is a bad idea. No. No. No.

[Nanda]

Well I, for one, think this is a great idea and I support it.

Only ONE down-side I can see, is baldies in security, but, an assistant baldie can do /way/ more damage with a welder and fuel tank, so. Meh!

[SgtSammac]

Hmm, sounds intriguing. I wouldn't mind seeing a trial run.

[Prospekt]

This would be amazing. I totally +1 this because of how it would be more of use than tasers. Tasers don't affect IPCs which is very troublesome against thoughs who commit crimes and decide to run. Also from my knowledge rubber bullets will stop targets faster than a taser would. If these are implemented it'd make my day, not only do they look good but they serve a better purpose than the taser which holds way less than your disposable magazine .45.

+1

edit: Also if you find anyone abusing the fact that they can use rubber bullet guns or whatever. Just job ban them from Security. Simple as, that's the only problem I see happening with this.

[GlamourChariot]

I wholeheartedly endorse this idea, it adds some nice depth to security beyond "beat the shit out of that guy, he'll be aight later" and we might actually see some use of courtly duties, maybe even investigations into an officer's use of force IC if they fuck up.

So, +1 if for at least a trial run.

[Jamini]

Mark my words, you will regret endorsing this idea.

It's been done. It was horrible.

Doing it here will be no different.

I cannot give enough: No, this is a bad idea.

[Susan]

We are not Baystation, nor do we have their playerbase.

[TishinaStalker]

I'd support this. I'm not particularly worried about baldies using it to grief, really. I already immediately jump to any repeated attack logs in the case of grief. If I see a bald officer shooting at a civilian and I can identify it as grief, then that bald officer is getting winded + possibly banned while the victim gets a rejuv. Grief carried out by harm like this is very easily fixable for staff.

[Jamini]

The playerbase is by no means different enough here to warrant this change.

This is a bad idea and should not be implemented.

This will not result in a major change to how security operates, nor will it promote more interesting or useful RP.

[Guest]

This is mildly interesting. It does give consequence to a security officer's actions and escalating force, allowing for officers to actually take into consideration what they're doing.

There might also be some serious griefy repercussions because of this, but. Those people will get punished anyway, right?

Worth a trial run just to experiment, if not a permanent change.

And, Jamini, I know you have your experiences with bay and whatnot, but I have faith that this community is responsible enough to show they are different.

[GlamourChariot]

The playerbase is by no means different enough here to warrant this change.

This is a bad idea and should not be implemented.

This will not result in a major change to how security operates, nor will it promote more interesting or useful RP.

 

Okay, I held off on saying something when you made your second post, but stop. Seriously, please.

If you would like to make an informative post explaining exactly your gripes and extrapolating on your opinion, then that's fine. But if you're just going to sit there shitting on the thread every 5 minutes, I'd like to ask that you withhold further responses because your opinion is already known.

If a trial is run and fails, it will not be mentioned again. You are unnecessarily spamming at this point.

Sorry if this sounds stern, I just don't want this thread becoming yet another derailed shitstorm.

Thank you in advance for understanding.

[Dea Tacita]

I'm not against having Ballistic weaponry on-hand, but I don't think it should be standard-issue. I think it'd be interesting to have in the armory, but the primary reason energy weapons are preferred is that they tend to not vent the station when you miss and fuck-up that window.

[Nik]

I'm not against having Ballistic weaponry on-hand, but I don't think it should be standard-issue. I think it'd be interesting to have in the armory, but the primary reason energy weapons are preferred is that they tend to not vent the station when you miss and fuck-up that window.

 

Actually, it's easier to blow a window with a laser weapon then a ballistic.

If you target a window with a Protopistol, three shots to blow it open for each window, two for the grate.

[Dea Tacita]

Protopistol

 

It's a good thing Protopistols aren't standard issue then isn't it?

The standard-issue weapons (Laser Rifle, carbine, pistol) Don't pop windows.

[Guest]

Laser rifle takes one shot for a window, actually. I tested this. You have to aim for the window sprite itself, otherwise you're shooting through it.

Anyway, I would argue that stun rounds probably wouldn't do crap versus windows compared to the lethal rounds. Plus, the officer would have to figure out how to use ballistic weaponry anyway. And how to use it responsibly.

Win-win, right? Only the most experienced and responsible will do well with the weaponry given.

[Jamini]

If you would like to make an informative post explaining exactly your gripes and extrapolating on your opinion, then that's fine. But if you're just going to sit there shitting on the thread every 5 minutes, I'd like to ask that you withhold further responses because your opinion is already known.

 

What people thought would happen on Bay:

1. Officers will think before going into a conflict

2. Violent conflict will lessen

3. People will stop being shitlers and breaking minor regs, because they might get shot

4. Security would talk things out over using a gun

5. Things will improve overall

What actually happened:

1. Officers used them just like tasers. Experienced, good officers. Sending tons of people to medical for breaking minor regulations.

2. Antagonists became SIGNIFICANTLY more violent, as they were fully aware that security would need to lethal them and that they'd get shot if caught. The amount of outright murders went through the roof.

3. The randoms being shits were still shits.

4. Medical was FLOODED with broken bones and stuck-in bullets. Literally flooded.

5. Security became even MORE hated, as they tended to use said non-lethal gun to resolve fights.

6. Antagonists who were caught were more often than not outright killed. Sometimes by accident.

7. It was reverted after about five rounds of testing.

Don't get me wrong, I was tentatively in support of this idea on bay too. What I saw was THE EXACT OPPOSITE of what people thought would happen, happening. It doesn't work. LtL ballistics were a horrible, universal failure there. I do not see in any way how things will be BETTER here with them. At all.

[GlamourChariot]

If you would like to make an informative post explaining exactly your gripes and extrapolating on your opinion, then that's fine. But if you're just going to sit there shitting on the thread every 5 minutes, I'd like to ask that you withhold further responses because your opinion is already known.

 

What people thought would happen on Bay:

1. Officers will think before going into a conflict

2. Violent conflict will lessen

3. People will stop being shitlers and breaking minor regs, because they might get shot

4. Security would talk things out over using a gun

5. Things will improve overall

What actually happened:

1. Officers used them just like tasers. Experienced, good officers. Sending tons of people to medical for breaking minor regulations.

2. Antagonists became SIGNIFICANTLY more violent, as they were fully aware that security would need to lethal them and that they'd get shot if caught. The amount of outright murders went through the roof.

3. The randoms being shits were still shits.

4. Medical was FLOODED with broken bones and stuck-in bullets. Literally flooded.

5. Security became even MORE hated, as they tended to use said non-lethal gun to resolve fights.

6. Antagonists who were caught were more often than not outright killed. Sometimes by accident.

7. It was reverted after about five rounds of testing.

Don't get me wrong, I was tentatively in support of this idea on bay too. What I saw was THE EXACT OPPOSITE of what people thought would happen, happening. It doesn't work. LtL ballistics were a horrible, universal failure there. I do not see in any way how things will be BETTER here with them. At all.

 

Alright, thanks. Adds a lot more to the discussion than your prior posts. Appreciated.

[Susan]

Because we're not Bay. Baystation has it's own playerbase and went down to it's own unique hell full of light roleplay, antag-centric gameplay.

1. Rubber bullets don't embed here. Non-issue.

2. Admin staff actually give a shit here. Abusing stuff will get you dealt with, unlike Bay's administration philosophy.

3. Randoms being randoms will be consistent no matter what. They are dealt with here, too, also unlike Bay.

I don't see any of what you said being an issue. Skull isn't Asanadas.

[Jamini]

I also got a quick quote from Yinadele, a regular security player and ex-admin from baystation from the time when this was implemented. They honestly can express things better than I ever could.

 

Ballistic sec weapons are impractical for the most part, and unpleasant with the effects they have on the station lead to needless and busywork cleanup when they break glass, etc. They cause lots of problems when you have rogue sec, and traitors. There is overall little if no improvement over electric shots.

If you want to use damage to discourage the overuse of tasers and add real consequences/actually feelable damage feedback to tasers, add mild burn damage and maybe occasional internal organ damage. That would give you what you want without the design problems of ballistics.

[Susan]

Having to clean up bullet casings isn't something I'd consider a heavy downside. Caseless ammunition.

Further, 'they cause problems' can be said of anything in security's arsenal when there's rogue sec or traitors. Stun batons, laser rifles, energy carbines - both equally have access to these far more potent implements that are more viable, so I fail to see how this is also anywhere near a downside. It's like saying chloral causes problems when you have rogue medical or traitors.

[Prospekt]

You realize they don't have to break windows, realistically a rubber bullet round would only probably crack a window. A reinforced window it'd probably ricochet off of. For a rubber bullet to send a window into broken pieces is quite ridiculous imo. A normal bullet I understand. But then again all windows leading to space are reinforced anyways.

There's also no harm giving it a shot for maybe 3 days at maximum to see if we want to keep it or scrap it. I personally think that our security team with the people I know in it, will keep to a professional level knowing that they can get thrown out if they over-use their power with holding a firearm that could still possible kill someone if you empty a mag into them.

You also have to keep in mind, we're not baystation sure we might be a little bit like it, we harness their wiki and same regulations but it's a heavy rp server. I doubt anyone will abuse the fire arm unless they are totally new and when they do as a new player they simply get warned and if they do it again they can get job banned from Security.

Players have to take into an account that this is still a weapon that can cause grief to another player which can send them out of the round if they aren't careful.

Not only can Security handle holding such a weapon, but I'm pretty sure the admins can deal with any wrong doer blasting everyone to oblivion just because they have a weapon that breaks bones.

Just because baystation didn't do too well with balistics doesn't mean we aren't doomed to fail with this. I'll say it again, we aren't bs12.

[mrimatool]

I love this idea, I'm a bit worried about it because of some of your previous actions sue. But I think I can trust people not to fuck this up. I too endorse this.

[Guest]

Honestly, I merely see ballistics as an absolute last resort in the branch of escalation of force, I believe I made a post on that one thread about EoF before it was locked because of flaming? Still. So, keep tasers, right, along with the gun they have on-hand? Sound alright?

In addition, I also suggested a different form of tasers. Here. http://aurorastation.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=1512

It's honestly more to bring things in line with how actual security officers or cops react in real life. The thing is, though, this is a game. People are pressing buttons and seeing pixels change, they don't really care about the sound of ribs cracking and shattering as a 9mm parabellum round enters their chest, followed with their brothers and sisters, or the gushes and fountains of blood and bloody /grief/ that comes with shooting someone and taking them out of existence, in a single moment.

But, hey, not an issue any developer or admin can fix. Player issue... so, anyway.

Ballistics, I would assume, is not to be used as a first response to any normal situation. They're an absolute last resort, even if the mag is filled with rubber rounds. If people go around shooting people without any real reason or care in the world, they're gonna get smakt.

Does this seem fair, at least?

Edited March 26, 2015 by Guest

[Witt]

I am against this, for a couple reasons.

RP wise using ballistic weapons in a pressurized metal canister is a bad idea.

Certain players have shown overly abusive towards already existing weapons, so I don't really trust people to not abuse them.

The Argument that "if someone does a dumb, admins will fix it" is a weak one because our admins (despite what scopes thinks of himself) are just human and we do still have times where our admins are afk or not on and Griefer McBaldie can do quite some damage before they get stopped

P.S. This is not Baystation please stop using arguments of well bay did this.