Staff Complaint: Alberyk

[Kaizr]

1 minute ago, Arrow768 said:

In addition I care very little for “anonymous statements on discord” posted here.
Private Discord conversations can easily be “produced” and with the names blurred out it is impossible to verify their accuracy.

Agreed. I am not innocent of speaking for others, but people should really be bringing this up on their own instead of having others speak for them. I think the issue lies with the fact that some people are worried there may be repercussions (social or administrative) for saying something, but that is not a conversation for this thread.

[Alberyk]

9 minutes ago, Kaizr said:

1 hour ago, Kaizr said:

a-healing, combat stimulants and high-grade medical drugs, firearms despite having a melee weapon that would break bones with one strike

54 minutes ago, Alberyk said:

I did not aheal after I was hit by the rifle rounds from the crew. I only used the combat hypospray and healing packs. And the bayonet hand melee weapon had its damaged reduced for the final event. The firearm was a machine gun, which deals less way damage than a rifle. I also had to use drugs to avoid being mobbed by the crew.
 

9 minutes ago, Kaizr said:

It doesn't, you are missunderstanding my point here. The medbay was, in most cases, tacked onto the casino because the event was designed in a way that there would be non-stop violence. In no way did I say it would help kill people, I said that it was encouraging a TDM style of gameplay.

54 minutes ago, Alberyk said:

It was not a team death match because there was no teams. It was the station versus a single character. And medical was needed there because people were going to be hurt by all kind of things. 

9 minutes ago, Kaizr said:

However, we could have 2 hours of build-up during a mercenary round, but would that excuse them suddenly attacking someone whom was uninvolved without any form of RP between the two parties. Trapping players and engaging in even minor dialogue would greatly improve the quality of the event and the RP.

No. Because no mercenary round will have two weeks of buildup with the backing of unique code and lore. Besides, no mercenary round would have in universe consequences.

 

[Kaizr]

@Alberyk

 

I believe we are discussing something different from the main point of this thread (supposed meta-grudges), would you like to bring this into DMs where we can more easily discuss this?

[Alberyk]

1 minute ago, Kaizr said:

I believe we are discussing something different from the main point of this thread (supposed meta-grudges), would you like to bring this into DMs where we can more easily discuss this?

No. There is a feedback thread for that.

[Kaizr]

Just now, Alberyk said:

No. There is a feedback thread for that.

Then I will move my discussion there at a later date. From this point on I will no longer post unless it directly relates to the topic of the staff complaint.

[Ickysoup]

33 minutes ago, Arrow768 said:

We have/had a lot of people who posted their opinions of the event.

This topic is not the place to post your opinions.

If you do not have any evidence or information that can help us verify or refute the claims made by the OP you should head to the feedback topic for the event.

In addition I care very little for “anonymous statements on discord” posted here.
Private Discord conversations can easily be “produced” and with the names blurred out it is impossible to verify their accuracy.

Ill provide entire chat history with the people I spoke to if requested. They can be asked to verify its legitimacy.

[Garnascus]

After an initial read of this entire thread i have compiled a list of what seems to be the main points directed against Alberyk and their supporting evidence. 

1. Alberyk designed the event to murder characters and in the process broke the rules that antagonists must follow.
    
    A. Alberyk was the antagonist.

    B. Testimony from over >6 players imply they where ganked/ their deaths or attempted deaths involved little RP.

    C. The event was designed to "Further combat over RP". Multiple teams with weapons, a serial killer with powerful weapons and traps, a medical bay to heal injured people....etc etc.

2. Alberyk engaged in metagrudge of certain characters. He intentionally targetted them to kill their characters. 

    A. Alberyk expressed in deadchat that he "wanted to murder more people".

    B. Alberyk while playing as the antagonist utilized an "Admin only area" That could only be reached by the use of administrator teleportation.

    C. Alberyk aghosted regularly during the event. This would allow him to gain information on metagrudge targets that bayonet hand would not know otherwise.

    D. Alberyk was involved in the discussion on whether or not to allow characters to be cloned. The rule states that it is permissable only if head staff and loremasters allow it. This is a conflict of interest.

    E. Alberyk carried with him an EMP grenade that was conveniently very effective against a single player in a mob.

As @Ickysoup is the OP of the this thread I need you to tell me if this list is comprehensive or if I am missing anything. I have combined the point of "The event was designed to murder" with "Alberyk ganked people" together because I believe them to be intertwined. Criticisms of the event as a whole will be explored only so far as they are relevant to the stated point. 

[Ickysoup]

10 minutes ago, Garnascus said:

After an initial read of this entire thread i have compiled a list of what seems to be the main points directed against Alberyk and their supporting evidence. 

1. Alberyk designed the event to murder characters and in the process broke the rules that antagonists must follow.
    
    A. Alberyk was the antagonist.

    B. Testimony from over >6 players imply they where ganked/ their deaths or attempted deaths involved little RP.

    C. The event was designed to "Further combat over RP". Multiple teams with weapons, a serial killer with powerful weapons and traps, a medical bay to heal injured people....etc etc.

2. Alberyk engaged in metagrudge of certain characters. He intentionally targetted them to kill their characters. 

    A. Alberyk expressed in deadchat that he "wanted to murder more people".

    B. Alberyk while playing as the antagonist utilized an "Admin only area" That could only be reached by the use of administrator teleportation.

    C. Alberyk aghosted regularly during the event. This would allow him to gain information on metagrudge targets that bayonet hand would not know otherwise.

    D. Alberyk was involved in the discussion on whether or not to allow characters to be cloned. The rule states that it is permissable only if head staff and loremasters allow it. This is a conflict of interest.

    E. Alberyk carried with him an EMP grenade that was conveniently very effective against a single player in a mob.

As @Ickysoup is the OP of the this thread I need you to tell me if this list is comprehensive or if I am missing anything. I have combined the point of "The event was designed to murder" with "Alberyk ganked people" together because I believe them to be intertwined. Criticisms of the event as a whole will be explored only so far as they are relevant to the stated point. 

I agree with this.

I would also like to request that regardless of the outcome if staff could look at the no cloning rule and put into place means to prevent possible abuse of it.

[Garnascus]

Alright i will just go point by point with my thoughts. 

Quote

Alberyk was the antagonist.

Any rule violations committed by bayonet hand would ultimately be Alberyk's responsibility. 

Quote

Testimony from over >6 players imply they where ganked/ their deaths or attempted deaths involved little RP.

I have noticed a pattern within OPs perspective on this issue and various others perspective. I will highlight a relevant section of the OP. 

"My first full interaction with Bayonet Hand in the entirety of the arc resulted in me, at most, being given a one liner before having potentially lethal injuries inflicted Approximately 10-15 minutes after I receive medical treatment I met Bayonet Hand again in the pitch black, main casino hall and only be given a xenophobic one liner before having a lethal injury inflicted."

I personally was not present for much of the arc but based on feedback from alb in this thread and other players i can reach a few conclusions.

1. A serial killer was the focus of this arc

2. The serial killer and the arc as a whole played out over a series of multiple rounds and violence that slowly escalated

With these two things in mind it becomes really difficult for me to entertain the claim one might have that "I was attacked with one line of dialogue" or "I was suddenly killed with no RP". From my perspective we are not dealing with an antagonist who waited around for an hour before finally trying to kill the chef out of boredom. We are instead dealing with a large meta-narrative spanning multiple rounds. The serial killer as I understand it was not a surprise to anyone. He did not just show up one minute and begin murdering players without a trace of his presence in lore, articles or previous rounds. There does seem to be a generous amount of buildup and escalation.

Quote

The event was designed to "Further combat over RP". Multiple teams with weapons, a serial killer with powerful weapons and traps, a medical bay to heal injured people

Violence for no reason is generally frowned upon. Our rules even indicate that there should be a good reason for an antagonist to kill people. Gimmicks and strategies related to violence or ones with the explicit goal of violence or killing people are not disallowed by our rules. As long as their is appropriate escalation a single antagonist could theoretically kill everyone on station. With this in mind there is nothing wrong with creating an event with the intention of eventually becoming violent. I think the idea of it becoming "combat versus rp" is a false dichotomy. The combat and violence happened organically from things that happened in the round. Symbols and graffiti of the killer began appearing, spooky things happened, casino employees went missing/where killed. Even someone like me who did not play during the rounds can chart a pretty clear pattern of escalation. The murders at the end told a story.

In summary i reject this notion that we can focus on the thirty second interaction a particular individual had right before the killer slashed them up and claim it "lacked RP" or was gank in anyway. It was what the entire event was building up to. 

I am going to move on to point # 2 now. 

Quote

Alberyk expressed in deadchat that he "wanted to murder more people".

This really just seems like a joke. I have not been shown evidence of alberyk breaking the rules when he killed someone.

Quote

"Points B and C are combined here"

An administrator only room did indeed exist for alberyk to teleport his antag to. I have received testimony from both players and staff that he did not do this when he was being chased. Only after he had disengaged and fled from a fight. It is also true that Alberyk aghosted multiple times during the round. Alberyk used this tool because he was running the event and coordinating with other people/spawning stuff in for them. Spawning things in does require him to jump out of his body and ghost over to the player who needs something. I do not know what specifically he needed to spawn in but as there where a lot of items/code and custom things created for this event i assume alberyk was most knowledgeable on these things and elected to do a lot of it himself. It is absolutely possible he used information he gained while ghosted to target and kill certain players. As staff we at all times have access to meta-info even if we try to avoid it. Ahelps come in, attack logs get shown and antagonist names are highlighted in yellow when they do. I trust everyone on my team not to abuse this information until i am given evidence to the contrary. You have shown that alberyk certainly COULD have abused meta-info but you have not shown me that he did. 

Quote

Alberyk was involved in the discussion on whether or not to allow characters to be cloned. The rule states that it is permissable only if head staff and loremasters allow it. This is a conflict of interest.

I can understand this sentiment. It seems reasonable to me to suspect the role of someone involved in the discussion to allow someone to be cloned or not is also the person who killed your character. I think i probably should have asked Alberyk to recuse himself from the discussion on those grounds. Although to my knowledge ever since we have implemented the rule our individual stances on "can this character be cloned" has been a firm NO. We are pretty united on this issue. I am personally not familiar with anyone that has been allowed to be cloned under the ruling. One or two people may have been cloned if they died completely unrelated from a canon event happening. 

[Alberyk]

6 hours ago, Garnascus said:

With these two things in mind it becomes really difficult for me to entertain the claim one might have that "I was attacked with one line of dialogue" or "I was suddenly killed with no RP". From my perspective we are not dealing with an antagonist who waited around for an hour before finally trying to kill the chef out of boredom. We are instead dealing with a large meta-narrative spanning multiple rounds. The serial killer as I understand it was not a surprise to anyone. He did not just show up one minute and begin murdering players without a trace of his presence in lore, articles or previous rounds. There does seem to be a generous amount of buildup and escalation.

Quote

On the top of that. Casino crew had died already. I must also need to point out that icky's character was in the area where the murders happened, alone, and with a gun in hand. They were not chilling with their friends in some corner.

6 hours ago, Garnascus said:

This really just seems like a joke. I have not been shown evidence of alberyk breaking the rules when he killed someone.

Quote

At this point, I will likely stop making these jokes. It is very annoying to have people search discords they don't even participate for some kind of evidence to frame you as a griefer while ignoring the context of the conversation.

[Ickysoup]

I want to address the Complaint One before touching Complaint Two. @Garnascus


 

Spoiler

"1. A serial killer was the focus of this arc

2. The serial killer and the arc as a whole played out over a series of multiple rounds and violence that slowly escalated

With these two things in mind it becomes really difficult for me to entertain the claim one might have that "I was attacked with one line of dialogue" or "I was suddenly killed with no RP". From my perspective we are not dealing with an antagonist who waited around for an hour before finally trying to kill the chef out of boredom. We are instead dealing with a large meta-narrative spanning multiple rounds. The serial killer as I understand it was not a surprise to anyone. He did not just show up one minute and begin murdering players without a trace of his presence in lore, articles or previous rounds. There does seem to be a generous amount of buildup and escalation."

"Violence for no reason is generally frowned upon. Our rules even indicate that there should be a good reason for an antagonist to kill people. Gimmicks and strategies related to violence or ones with the explicit goal of violence or killing people are not disallowed by our rules. As long as their is appropriate escalation a single antagonist could theoretically kill everyone on station. With this in mind there is nothing wrong with creating an event with the intention of eventually becoming violent. I think the idea of it becoming "combat versus rp" is a false dichotomy. The combat and violence happened organically from things that happened in the round. Symbols and graffiti of the killer began appearing, spooky things happened, casino employees went missing/where killed. Even someone like me who did not play during the rounds can chart a pretty clear pattern of escalation. The murders at the end told a story.

In summary i reject this notion that we can focus on the thirty second interaction a particular individual had right before the killer slashed them up and claim it "lacked RP" or was gank in anyway. It was what the entire event was building up to."

I can only attest to what took place in the final event. I had no part and very little knowledge prior to the final event beyond the serial killer existing, it being a Tajara, and they a had vendetta with people in a photo. "There does seem to be a generous amount of buildup and escalation." But is it right for this to be an excuse to neglect RP in a final event? In my own experience I felt this final to be comparable to a below standard mercenary round. I wanted to get involved with the what was going on but from Alberyk's comment above it now seems like I got punished for trying to be involved, albeit late, there should have been consideration that there will be players that don't know what is going on a lot of people play this game not everyone is able to devote time to unrevealing layered mysteries. I don't recall this being much of an issue in past arcs/events as there is normally an announcement with enough details to draw whats going on often followed by command input that gives everyone a basic understanding of whats going on and why its happening. If you had little to no information prior to the final event there was not much you could have gained. The only information I recall seeing about Bayonet Hand being made public was that he was in the casino. One player will claim they did, however I believe them to have been a one percenter in this situation as they had ties to another player(s) that did follow the arc and had easy access to need to know information that was not made public to everyone else. I don't contest that events should have things in them meant for the players who to get deeply involved. I contest that not enough information/lore was provided during or throughout the final event and that Alberyk had the opportunity to fill this gap with his antagonists RP, but he didn't, choosing only to giving one liners at most.
 

Spoiler

6 hours ago, Alberyk said:

On the top of that. Casino crew had died already. I must also need to point out that icky's character was in the area where the murders happened, alone, and with a gun in hand. They were not chilling with their friends in some corner.

 

This only describes the first attack in the trap room. As I said above, I wanted to know more about what was going on, I wanted to know why people were being killed, I wanted to be involved, what I didnt do was purposefully hunt the antagonist. Now it feels I was punished for doing so. At the time of the second attack I didn't have a gun, secondly, wouldn't Bayonet Hand have know they were loaded with blanks at best it would have been a blunt object, and thirdly I was alone, yes, just you and me, in the dark. You had the ability to do more and didn't.

My final statement on this point is that RP should be guaranteed in every round/event, In this final event it was grossly neglected and became more of a luxury then an expectation that cannon lore events deliver.
 

Edited November 5, 2021 by Ickysoup

[Alberyk]

You were indeed getting involved by being there. You also survived the first attack. However, you decided to very much the same thing that got you hurt. You went alone in the darkness instead of playing safe after being attacked once. And you must take in consideration that this was not even remotely similar to a mercenary round. It was an event round with 90 players online, there is no way I can give an entire monologue to everyone; that would be literally impossible. In fact, at the first time I attacked you, I left you wounded so people could rescue you.

And I am unsure what information you are expecting. People were aware that the bayonet hand was around for more than two weeks. People found his mark in the casino. The casino staff died. It is more than obvious that a serial killer is around. You must also take in consideration that I can't recap two weeks of events and articles to everyone every time without delaying the event. We had a lot of people around, we had to get things going. If you did not know something, ask around.

[Ickysoup]

13 hours ago, Garnascus said:

You have shown that alberyk certainly COULD have abused meta-info but you have not shown me that he did. 

Unless someone were to speak out, I believe it's impossible for me to contribute more then I already have to this. Everything needed to do it was here, and only an investigation by staff can prove it did occur.

[Ickysoup]

Before continuing with this response ill need to apologize. The making of and the unfolding of this complaint has evoked a lot of emotion. I don't mean to show disrespect or devalue the work put into projects made by the community.

I still stand by my points that this event final didn't provide what should be an expectation.

10 hours ago, Alberyk said:

It was an event round with 90 players online,

Is this not something most events have to deal with? There must have been something that you could have done to pull weight off your self. The Casino Staff, could more have been done with them? What about after they died could other event roles have been made for them? What about accomplices mixed in with the crew? Did you not have enough resources or volunteers? What would have made this less of a problem?
 

10 hours ago, Alberyk said:

there is no way I can give an entire monologue to everyone; that would be literally impossible.

In the cases of the people that got caught out, the power you had over them was immense. There is so much I believe you could have done with it. Were I in your shoes would have tried to deliver a profound experience to as many as I could even if I knew I couldn't do it to everyone. The nature of this event would result in those experiences being shared. As far as I know the arc didn't have secrets that characters needed to keep hidden for fear of legal or other reasons. Everything would have been shared in the end.

I strongly feel this could have been done better I want to figure out how and what can be done in the future. The individual was neglected far to much, it should not happen to this degree.

Edited November 6, 2021 by Ickysoup

[Ickysoup]

9 hours ago, Alberyk said:

And I am unsure what information you are expecting.

Information and lore. I know you're capable of making in depth lore. What was behind the mask? Why were they xenophobic? What did they expect to come from the murders and the terrorist attack? A few basic questions to consider that could have been circulated through event characters or your self playing the antagonist.


And what story was told through having characters intentionally die in the end? All I'm able to conclude from the final event is that Bayonet Hand is just another terrorist. Please tell me what the intent was here.

[Alberyk]

8 hours ago, Ickysoup said:

Before continuing with this response ill need to apologize. The making of and the unfolding of this complaint has evoked a lot of emotion. I don't mean to show disrespect or devalue the work put into projects made by the community.

Kinda late to say that when you already tried to paint me as someone that got people involved in a week-long project just to remove characters because I did not like them or their players. This kind of accusation with no real proof just makes me less willing to do events or contribute to the community.

8 hours ago, Ickysoup said:

Is this not something most events have to deal with? There must have been something that you could have done to pull weight off your self. The Casino Staff, could more have been done with them? What about after they died could other event roles have been made for them? What about accomplices mixed in with the crew? Did you not have enough resources or volunteers? What would have made this less of a problem?

No. Most events don't have 90 players in a non-station map that requires constant interaction from the staff. If there was something I could have done, you are free to tell me. But I have been running events for years and it is never that easy. I have enough people to play all roles I could not. But ultimately I had to play the bayonet hand because I was the only person who knew how to.

8 hours ago, Ickysoup said:

In the cases of the people that got caught out, the power you had over them was immense. There is so much I believe you could have done with it. Were I in your shoes would have tried to deliver a profound experience to as many as I could even if I knew I couldn't do it to everyone. The nature of this event would result in those experiences being shared. As far as I know the arc didn't have secrets that characters needed to keep hidden for fear of legal or other reasons. Everything would have been shared in the end.

No, it was not. I had thermals and could see everything. People were everywhere and armed. I could not mess around or I would be killed quickly. I explained already that the entire ambience and preparing was set with two weeks worth of build up, casino staff dead, the marking showing up, the article, and whatever people could share. So no, I could not give an entire monologue as the bayonet hand because I was actively fighting the entire crew on my own. Sorry but saying that you would do x in my shoes is insulting. Please try to run an event like that before even considering writing this. I am speaking from at least 4 years of experience. It is not easy and was not possible. I am not lazy or incompetent. I did all I could during that event. I don't even think that anyone before in the server ran events of that escale in regards to online people.

7 hours ago, Ickysoup said:

Information and lore. I know you're capable of making in depth lore. What was behind the mask? Why were they xenophobic? What did they expect to come from the murders and the terrorist attack? A few basic questions to consider that could have been circulated through event characters or your self playing the antagonist.

These things did exist as hints in articles, extended events, during the regular events, relay stuff, and the final event itself. I explained already, it was a two weeks arc with a mystery behind it. It is up to the players to discover and theorize. Someone dropping on the final event will have a bit of a problem in getting the big picture. But I assure you that there were hints and other things to let people discover things. If I am telling a story, I won't use exposition by having event characters speak non stop to the crew to explain x lore fact, that is not interesting in my opinion.

7 hours ago, Ickysoup said:

And what story was told through having characters intentionally die in the end? All I'm able to conclude from the final event is that Bayonet Hand is just another terrorist. Please tell me what the intent was here.

People died because they were fighting a hostile element, that is the gist of the story here. I can't hype up a mythical serial killer that does not kill people. Death gives weight to what is happening, instead of being just a random guy stabbing people in the dark for them to be patched in some minutes. It was a violent story with violence.

[Ickysoup]

I, and other players believe it could have been handled better, fun may have been had to an extent, but when people have put countless hours into their characters only to die with lack of any RP engagement, it removes the fun out of what was had.


Unless @Garnascus has something to say go ahead and close the complaint.

[Garnascus]

No, i do not have anything else to add. I will close the complaint now. 

Locking and archiving.