[Resolved] Character Complaint: Claire Tarson

[CourierBravo]

BYOND Key: CourierBravo
Game ID: N/A / Relay behavior
Player Byond Key/Character name: Flpfs/Claire Tarson
Staff involved: N/A
Reason for complaint: Insane/Mentally ill character
Did you attempt to adminhelp the issue at the time? If so, what was the known action taken by administration/moderation? I have not, I have been keeping it to myself but I think now warrants a complaint.
Approximate Date/Time: Multiple instances, 8/30/2021, today in particular 5:00pm UTC-8, 1:00am UTC 0 2/3/2022

I cant help but feel like Claire is breaking the no insane character rule fairly regularly. Her behavior is unhinged, spouting conspiracy theories and speciesist/racist remarks regularly. Additionally, I feel like the character is a poor representation of mentally ill people, being played to some sort of joke/disrespect. While I fully believe that people with mental illnesses deserve to be in the workplace, I believe that this character is a poor representation and potentially harmful. And finally, I dont know if its still canon or retconned, I believe at one point she nearly killed a non player character with her delusions with an EMP and was arrested by the police (8/30/2021).

Incidents I can think of: Nearly killing someone by disabling their pace maker 8/30/2021
Insisting that lithium is being put in water to make people docile (5:07 UTC-8 2/3/2022)

Racist/Speciest remarks: (dates included in screenshots)







General screenshots showing behavior:

Edited February 15, 2022 by Faris
Misspelling of ckey

[goolie]

This doesn't really warrant a player complaint and at most I'd say to IR it. I'm pretty sure what happens on the relay isn't moderated as long as it doesn't break the rules and it's moderated ICly by the Bubble AI. And I've played with their character forever and they don't act like this in ICly at all. My characters act mad and stupid on the relay too because it's the relay. I don't think what they're doing is offensive in anyway either. Can't we have crazy and kooky characters anymore? If I recall as well most of the real crazy stuff was retconned when they were a new player. Compared to the EMPing a pacemaker and blowing up their apartment, I'm almost 100% certain that was retconned. I've known them since that happened almost a year ago and their character is SO much more than just a mad woman now. If you had made this complaint a year and a half ago when she was blowing up apartments or exploding pacemakers, I would say that it's maybe warranted but there's just nothing that the player is doing that deserves a complaint over.

Edited February 4, 2022 by goolie

[CourierBravo]

Thank you for replying,
I was under the impression that now that the relay is an official portion of the Aurora community, that actions there are still considered in character. And its not about not allowing wacky characters, its about having a character that is over the line.
If this is something that should be settled in an in character format such as an IR, then having this locked and archived is the obvious step, and we'll move from there. But I believe that this is a character breaking server rules, not a character breaking in universe rules, hence the choice to make this a complaint and not an IR.

Even disregarding the EMP from last year, I feel like what I have from just this month screenshots is worth raising concerns about.

[ryder]

1 hour ago, goolie said:

My characters act mad and stupid on the relay too because it's the relay. I don't think what they're doing is offensive in anyway either. Can't we have crazy and kooky characters anymore?

Characters must be believable, and well-rounded. No insane or psychotic characters. No Mary Sues. (Over the top characters, characters who know too much, have no weaknesses, etcetera.)

I would say to take this rule into consideration. Plenty of people roleplay mentally ill characters, even those with psychosis, just fine; because more often than not, the average schizophrenic is an exceedingly normal person. The "insanity" aspect is very much playing to stereotypes and I personally still think it's evident in the way flpfs plays their character. My interactions have often been ones about "SIIB agents in the walls", "psionic FIB soldiers emitting waves into my head", and "Megacorps are drugging the station water". Your experience with them won't be universal, but for my own, and from observed rounds, I can safely say I feel that flpfs behavior with Tarson is memey. Above, it's mentioned that it may be "jokey". Evidently enough, insensitive memes about mental illness, schizophrenia, etc., are often shared OOC by flpfs anyways. While we of course can't assume intent, we can use this context to better understand what it might be. I'll ask you to come to your own conclusions on that one. A lot of flpfs posts in OOC take but a cursory glance to see this. I know, as well, that I personally do not play psychology anymore because of the six-ish hours wasted over a series of rounds on trying to roleplay and being met with memey "I'm insane" posting; if I had round IDs or screenshots to cap, I would, but at the time I'd made the mistake of approaching it with sincerity.

1 hour ago, goolie said:

My characters act mad and stupid on the relay too because it's the relay.

I think this is a false comparison. They're largely harmless, behave completely normally besides being a touch contentious on station, and generally go out of their way to be amiable. It's not the same. Character's can be wacky while still being fun and engaging, without banking on harmful tropes that ultimately only risk making others uncomfortable.

1 hour ago, goolie said:

Compared to the EMPing a pacemaker and blowing up their apartment, I'm almost 100% certain that was retconned.

There have been several conversations since flpfs introduced Tarson back that have confirmed the opposite. The EMP bombing, near-murder, etc., is asserted as canon in-character by flpfs. See the attachments to see that these events have not been retconned (in an archived general chat, the mod team only said it would not have been published on the relay, but otherwise made no further comment) and are still discussed today.
 

I also invite you to review some of the screenshots posted by the OP and really gloss over any discussion or mention of a dreg involved when flpfs has Tarson speak. I think there's a certain risk of perpetuating harmful Black stereotypes as well as those regarding the mentally ill. It's hard to deny that this doesn't sometimes go over the top; that being said, intent still matters. There are slips where people can be insensitive without realizing the gravity of what they're saying.

Small edit after confirmation of a retcon: I think flpfs continued discussion about it in-character as Clair makes it abundantly clear that this choice hasn't been appropriately followed, as depicted in the attached screenpulls.

Edited February 4, 2022 by ryder
additions.

[Peppermint]

Not necessarily going to be the one handling this, however:

Just going to remind people to only post on complaints if they have something actionable or are directly involved. Opinions, thoughts, and preferences as to how things are handled should be taken up separately.

I handled the original issue of Tarson a while ago back during the super whacky microwave deathway stuff, during which it was retconned and the player spoken to. The character was allowed back so long as she cleaned things up and acted more reasonably. So whether or not she has or hasn't should be the focus here and the more recent the logs, the easier this will be.

[CourierBravo]

Thank you for the reply,

I think there's a misunderstanding that this is In Universe rules I'm talking about. I'm specifically talking about server rules, that character have to be believable and not insane, which in my only exposure to Claire via the relay, does not pass.
I agree, they havent been much of a problem but it hinges on how believable. For your example,

30 minutes ago, Captain Gecko said:

 conspiracy theorists (Tursynbekov my beloved)

I believe that Turnsynbekov, our beloved, was believable and had more to him that I saw both in game and in relay, along with Alberyk doing some very high effort ARG additions. And while racism is something we do roleplay in game, my issue is that its specifically towards dregs, the predominantly black ethnic group in lore. And centering around drugs heavily, which at least in my country, there's a heavy race based association with drugs. Though I dont want to come off as suggesting that this is malicious or even the sentiments of Flpfs, I'm not discussing them or their own beliefs, but rather their character and some unfortunate overlaps between real life issues and in game issues that I feel is over the line. Which again, I'm assuming that it is not intentional, but it is presenting in my interpretation, therefore I feel the need to draw the comparison.
 

30 minutes ago, Captain Gecko said:

I think Tarson's character might be good for Aurora eventually. Put an IR, things might happen, roleplay opportunities ensues. Tarson may evolve, learn, become a new person... IC drama could ensue too, leading to other characters learning from it... But I think that a character complaint, right now, is not worth it yet, and would be a missed roleplaying opportunity.

Of course, I believe this as well. Any character can and should be retooled if needed. But, I believe that fundamentally this is an OOC rule issue, not an IC issue. I do not find Claire, in her current state, believable, which does not make me want to roleplay with the character.

From what I understand, there has been dialogue between players before about this, and my last efforts to get in contact with Flpfs about an unrelated issue were ignored, so I'm defaulting to a complaint.

30 minutes ago, Captain Gecko said:

feel like, worst case scenario, speaking with Flpfs might be a better first reflex than getting to character complaint if we have a problem of this kind.

Edited February 4, 2022 by Bejewledpot
changes to help clarify paragraph after first quote

[goolie]

36 minutes ago, ryder said:

There have been several conversations since flpfs introduced Tarson back that have confirmed the opposite. The EMP bombing, near-murder, etc., is asserted as canon in-character by flpfs. See the attachments to see that these events have not been retconned (in an archived general chat, the mod team only said it would not have been published on the relay, but otherwise made no further comment) and are still discussed today.

As Peppermint said a lot of stuff that's over the top was retconned and the player was warned. If you look at the logs it's a lot of people replying to their old posts that have been retconned. I'd say to IR it or RR it because they haven't done anything to that degree in a while. They've improved massively and I was one of the people back in the day that tried to give them criticism when this whole stupid microwave bomb happened.

[Peppermint]

Myself and @Faris will be taking this.  See my previous post. If you're unsure if what you have to post is relevant, ask one of us first. Deeming this fine as a player complaint given it's more on mods than CCIA to deal with the issue being reported  - that being a character being entirely unbelievable on an OOC level, rather than acting out ICly.

[Flpfs]

To start of regarding the server rule, since this is a player complaint, i.e. "Characters must be believable, and well-rounded. No insane or psychotic characters. No Mary Sues. (Over the top characters, characters who know too much, have no weaknesses, etcetera.)"

I personally believe that Claire is believable and well-rounded. She does not, as an example, have mental breakdowns and randomly start killing people or screaming over radio, which is what I interpret the rule as designed to prevent, not to stop people from playing mentally ill characters.

I'd like to ask for the messages sent from several months ago about the microwave and EMP stuff to be disregarded as they are not relevant anymore. I have already been spoken to because of it. Deliberately using this to make my character look bad and like they went unpunished is unfair.

> "I cant help but feel like Claire is breaking the no insane character rule fairly regularly. Her behavior is unhinged, spouting conspiracy theories and speciesist/racist remarks regularly." 

I don't know why you think specism means a character is insane. Claire is xenophobic, yes, but this has never interfered with her in-game behavior or interactions with other characters.

She also partakes in conspiracy theories, yes. It is not a violation of the believability rule to be a conspiracy theorist, and there have been several other characters who have been conspiracy theorists. Just because she is mentally ill it does not mean that it's unbelievable for Claire to believe in these.

-

Regarding the screenshots posted by you, I'll reply to each one of them below, then I'll reply to what Ryder said.

About the lithium in the drinking water, yes, she said that recently. I don't see how that breaks the insanity rule, though.

About the "brain turn into frying pan", it's common sense that drug use causes damage to the body and brain, as my character said.

When I talked about the "toxic sludge affecting genetics", if you look at the full conversation in context, my character commented that heavy metals affect the development of fetuses and how it leads to bad health in the impoverished population of Oran who don't have access to clean water. Many organizations, including the World Health Organization, have published peer-reviewed studies that heavy metals such as lead and aluminium cause brain damage (which is pretty much common knowledge; heavy metals = bad) and other disabilities in children. Example: https://apps.who.int/iris/handle/10665/336875

About tajara specism, I don't really have anything to say, it's the relay and people have been specist there before.

-

And now, regarding what I assume led to you making this complaint, the conversation about brain implants that we had yesterday, fully in-character.

You did not post the full conversation and context, but rather only parts of it. My character stated that brain augmentation is dangerous and can lead to brain damage, and she has also stated that brain damage causes loss of memories and is generally irreversible, a valid concern. My character has also spoken about the dangers of hacking those implants and how unsafe it can be. Your character—not you—resulted to appealing to authority by saying my character is not qualified and invented studies which do not exist in lore.
I don't see how this is an OOC issue, considering how we had a normal in-character argument and we parted our separate ways by agreeing to disagree. How is the contents of this screenshot a violation of the believability rule?

Regarding Ryder's complaints, I find it appalling that you are somehow implying that I am OOCly racist from my IC statements. I have regularly seen your characters, which I have never interacted with before, act in a hostile manner to me, simply because you, as far as I can tell, OOCly dislike me. Your character, Saturna Hellas, as an example, has called my character a "bomber" without even knowing anything about Claire or interacting with her.

Your other character, Leo Raszeur, has openly written in the relay chat a call for my character to be lobotomized, and that a "cattlegun should be put through her fucking brain". I have never acted ICly or OOCly in any hostile way to you to warrant that reaction. On a separate issue which is more fit for a lore team issue, your character has repeatedly claimed that lobotomies in Dominia are common, and that your character which suffers from schizoaffective disorder, was considered for the procedure. This is all avaliable in the relay-chat channel, the main one. I am aware that this complaint is about me, but how can you accuse me of harmful stereotypes, when you yourself are partaking in one?

> "the average schizophrenic is an exceedingly normal person."
What makes my character abnormal? Is Claire not allowed to be schizophrenic and paranoid at the same time? It's literally a symptom of schizophrenia.

Regarding stereotypes, mental illnesses are not able to be objective because all people have different symptoms, even if mostly similar. What makes my interpretation of schizophrenia wrong and someone else's right? Am I supposed to replace one stereotype (if I was playing one; this is just for example) with another? Wikipedia even states "There is no objective diagnostic test; the diagnosis is used to describe observed behavior that may stem from numerous different causes."

Claire has never acted erratically or criminally in-game, and her strange behavior is because, well, everybody's online and they love to talk shit. A lot of Claire's relay posts are hyperbole on purpose and exaggeration for humor, and she does not act like this at all in game. It is possible to be schizophrenic and to shitpost on a chatroom at the same time. Correlation does not imply causation

Edited February 4, 2022 by Flpfs
embed failure

[ryder]

21 hours ago, Flpfs said:

I'd like to ask for the messages sent from several months ago about the microwave and EMP stuff to be disregarded as they are not relevant anymore. I have already been spoken to because of it. Deliberately using this to make my character look bad and like they went unpunished is unfair.

I personally think this is moot since you have continued to acknowledge it and discuss the event in-character as Claire. See my screenshots above. There have been any number of conversations and the one I posted is but one example. If going forward at all, it must not be acknowledged; break OOC and inform others, as would be your own responsibility for your own character.

21 hours ago, Flpfs said:

I find it appalling that you are somehow implying that I am OOCly racist from my IC statements.

The issue I take with your addressing Dregs is that your reasons above are frequently used to cast judgment rather than express concern. It extrapolates to something more than just IC, at least for myself. I think it's important to think about how these things may be received, and the tone and context in which they're delivered. I often interpret these posts as an excuse to punch down at a minority, but I'm also not someone who has consistently experienced it, and others may be able to speak to this more than I can.

21 hours ago, Flpfs said:

I am aware that this complaint is about me, but how can you accuse me of harmful stereotypes, when you yourself are partaking in one?

21 hours ago, Flpfs said:

What makes my character abnormal? Is Claire not allowed to be schizophrenic and paranoid at the same time?

You're right: This is a player complaint about you. This isn't an appropriate time for me to sit down and debate the fictitious horrors of Imperialism, the weaponized field of medicine, etc. As far as I know, lobotomy is canon in the Spur: See, MMIs. I will however respect your contrasts about character behavior: This isn't something insensitive; but, it is intended to offend the common sensibilities and cause a discussion. I feel the same cannot be said for your character, Claire, who often seems more like a caricature made for ridicule.

21 hours ago, Flpfs said:

Regarding stereotypes, mental illnesses are not able to be objective because all people have different symptoms, even if mostly similar.

All I have to say about this is that I think it's a bit of a fallacy; to deny that stereotypes can exist because of how mental illnesses may be categorized and identified feels disingenuous and unfair to those who do see stereotypes and take offense with your presentation, as described above.

Finally, my personal experiences have reflected that these outlandish behaviors do in fact mirror to the station. Again, I can't speak for everyone or say that this is universal, but it's what I've observed and seen.

 

Edited February 5, 2022 by ryder
Addded screenshots regarding "punch[ing] down at a minority".".

[CourierBravo]

Thank you for your quick reply, it’s appreciated. 
 

Addressing this first, I did not know at the time of posting if that was retconned or not, hence it’s inclusion, and I’m happy to disregard it. It was indeed over the top, so i figured that it could have been retconned, so it was the last thing i put. I understand that it might feel like i was intentionally trying to make your character look bad, but as far as i was aware it was still something to look to. The pointed finger wasn’t needed. 

2 hours ago, Flpfs said:

I'd like to ask for the messages sent from several months ago about the microwave and EMP stuff to be disregarded as they are not relevant anymore. I have already been spoken to because of it. Deliberately using this to make my character look bad and like they went unpunished is unfair.

 

Now, for the screenshots. My issue is mainly with the comments against dregs, mainly them being drug using gang members with a water supply that makes them underdeveloped. I, personally, feel like that’s incredibly uncomfortable. I don’t know where you’re from, therefore i don’t know if this is applicable to your life experience, but. Those stereotypes have been used against black people in America, casting them as drug abusing gang members. Though, I’m willing to believe that it’s a coincidence due to dreg lore in its current state. A potential solution to prevent such parallels from being drawn, intentional or intentional, might be for dreg lore to be expanded on to be more than just an impoverished underbelly. 
 

though i would like to mention about the Tajara discrimination, that the comments about diversity and sarcastic nature that “we definitely shouldn’t make mass arrests because they’re criminals and drug addicts” echos the American War On Drug era policies and sentiments, which again felt incredibly uncomfortable. Though again, that can be coincidental and not intentional based on the current in lore situation. 
 

finally, for the lithium theory, though i only did a cursory search online, the only sources i found about it is from Gangstalking blogs that are mostly just deranged rants in form of word vomiting/ stream of consciousness. Which lead me to feel like she’s more parodying the paranoid gangstalking people in that instance. 

2 hours ago, Flpfs said:

About the lithium in the drinking water, yes, she said that recently. I don't see how that breaks the insanity rule, though.

About the "brain turn into frying pan", it's common sense that drug use causes damage to the body and brain, as my character said.

When I talked about the "toxic sludge affecting genetics", if you look at the full conversation in context, my character commented that heavy metals affect the development of fetuses and how it leads to bad health in the impoverished population of Oran who don't have access to clean water. Many organizations, including the World Health Organization, have published peer-reviewed studies that heavy metals such as lead and aluminium cause brain damage (which is pretty much common knowledge; heavy metals = bad) and other disabilities in children. Example: https://apps.who.int/iris/handle/10665/336875

For the full conversation, i didn’t actually take part for more than a couple messages, i mostly observed. From my perspective, it looked like Claire was just refusing to listening to what the supposed expert had to say just to keep injecting her thoughts. 
 

I’ll be posting more replies to this later tonight, i did all of this while on my lunch. I still have more to say. Otherwise, i just like to finish by saying that when broken down into the individual aspects, all of these things are somewhere between tame enough but weird to suspicious but explainable. It’s that they’re all together that makes me feel like she doesn’t fit in her current state, and takes me out of my immersion more than not. Please do not take my observations as accusatory, but rather feedback and concern based on my own feelings, knowledge, and experience. 

Edited February 5, 2022 by Bejewledpot
Goofed the ending note

[CourierBravo]

as a note, some stuff came up so I will be holding off for tonight. If anyone wishes to reply, ask for clarification, comment, etc., now is not a bad moment to do so

[Peppermint]

Okay. A lot of hearsay here about what people have seen, or have heard, ect. However, if people wish to make these kinds of claims, they need to post proof. Round IDs, screenshots, conversation logs; any further posts without them will be removed and strikes handed out. Especially given the seriousness of some of these allegations, I expect to see something concrete. Anything without it will be disregarded. 

[Faris]

Somethings that were mentioned in the thread have already been dealt with in the past so it cannot be pursued any further. That being said, there are a few things during our investigation that requires a few comments on.

To clarify some misunderstanding, the staff team does moderate IC interaction from an OOC perspective in the same way we do the actual server.

In regard to the racist aspects, we do not feel like the player is intentionally utilizing dog whistles or using dregs as a medium to be racist. These are serious allegations that currently do not have proof. That being said, we also feel like there is a parallel between the commentary made by Claire and the commentary used in segregation movements and the war on drugs in relation to oppressed minorities. We don't feel they were made intentionally, but it is still something you must be careful with.

In regards to the portrayal of mental illness, players are trusted to play characters using these themes and difficulties. However, in doing so they are expected to attempt them respectfully with the understanding they need to be careful to avoid making people uncomfortable. However, we have found some of the issues brought up here - especially given the admittance of attempting humour (quote) - to be in poor faith and therefor will be asking the player to once again reign it back and to be more mindful as to how Claire is presented.

Action will be taken regards to the point covering the mental illness aspect of this complaint.

[Faris]

Following a discussion with @Flpfs, we received some clarification on their description of "humor" here. We feel that with the clarification, that the character is not made in bad faith. However, we still require the player to take into consideration the concrete and potential issues raised here in future interactions. In essence, reign in the character a bit and to put more thought before posting about certain themes.