[Resolved] Player Complaint - Kyres1

[WickedCybs]

BYOND Key: WickedCybs
Game ID: IcjL-dITU
Player Byond Key/Character name: Kyres1
Staff involved: MattAtlas

Reason for complaint: I've noticed Kyres just cannot be happy as an antagonist as they frequently complain in dead chat after being killed/detained/what have you. For the particular round I'm focusing on they led a plan where they would announce to the crew that they must make a total of five sacrifices everytime a sort of killing hour was announced and leave the body in a public space for inspections. If they did not, a deck would be stated on the radio and the ninjas would kill a target of their choosing within it.

The crew congregated together and after the Ninjas made their first kill on someone far from them, the crew armoury was opened and most of the crew had weapons makeshift or otherwise to protect themselves. Eventually the ninjas were caught, one was killed and one escaped. The one who escaped was Kyres. They took a hostage later on and presented it to security and command. They said it wasn't really a "hostage situation" and that they would take a trade on someone else to kill if we wanted, otherwise the guy they were currently holding would die and they'd continue killing others as they made it clear earlier it wasn't stopping at five anymore. Everyone waited until the last possible moment, so as to not stop any possible rp here but they began counting down to kill the hostage and so the crew acted to shoot Kyres. A hostage doesn't provide full 360 degree protection, and we knew that. They were forced to drop the hostage, then teleported away.

Security mainly gave chase. It did end with Kyres dying. So they began to complain about how the round went and about particular people. Here are some snippets.

Kyres1 (Terror) moans, "today i will pursue the antagonist into a pluming fire to slug them"
Kyres1 (?) (Terror) complains, "i could not honestly get a single person to engage in self preservation of an entire highpop manifest except a fucking baldie!"
Kyres1 (Terror) blubbers, "thats honestly a joke"
Kyres1 (Terror) moans, "as in, the fact that NOBODY would vote"

(WickedCybs) says, "I don't see what you expected"
(WickedCybs) says, "this was a crew arm gimmick"
(JMP) DEAD Kyres1 (Terror) complains, "well, i can see 2 reasons"
(JMP) DEAD Kyres1 (Terror) moans, "1. you want something to happen besides security ganging up and slugging the ninjas oocly"
(JMP) DEAD Kyres1 (Terror) laments, "and 2. you want to pretend youre scared you might get decapitated like rey"
(JMP) DEAD Kyres1 (Terror) complains, "however"
DEAD Kyres1 (Terror) whines, "why would you be scared with an entire private military at your disposal"
DEAD Kyres1 (Terror) laments, "and a crew armory"
(JMP) DEAD Kyres1 (Terror) moans, "and slugs and ballistics and riot gear and tajara with bullpups and etc etc"

There was a bit more, but I'm not going to scrape it all. It concluded with me being more hostile than called for.

MODERATOR(WickedCybs) says, "honestly stop bitching about it in dchat if you have literally nothing else to say"

And then Matt ended it.

It's strange to me that Kyres would even begin tearing into essentially the entire crew that shift for not voting to kill their colleagues, for grouping together instead of hiding and dying and for trying to kill two people presenting themselves as insane killers who can't be talked down. I am frustrated, as it is a dice roll whether Kyres will begin complaining about people who can't even see the terrible things they say about others (often friends) or just accept it. I've challenged them on this before and they usually stop posting about it, an example of that can be seen on a changling round (cjG-adyg) where security was considering destroying their body before they even revived. Those involved were spoken to in the end, but it only happened because an unrelated ghost player mentioned the issue after I told Kyres to stop complaining about it in dchat. I don't have anything more in that regard because I don't really log every conversation I have with people. I do know others who have seen this behavior, and I will ask them to post if it'd be useful and not turn this into a "he said she said" situation.

They do not ahelp their issues and should not be antagging at all if they can't handle what the possible conclusions to their gimmicks will be.

Did you attempt to adminhelp the issue at the time? If so, what was the known action taken by administration/moderation?: No. I actively argued with them and was reminded to stop and formally make a ticket rather than continuing to cross a line. There are no real excuses on that, and I can comment on it if required.

Approximate Date/Time: September 5, 7:30 MST

Edited September 23, 2022 by ReadThisNamePlz
added another round ID

[kyres1]

Let me preface this reply with : I have no intention to upset anyone. I play antagonist for two reasons, it's fun and I get to help other people have fun. I do not and probably never will have malice towards you. If I did, I would be blunt about it - I would, as I do with anybody else, take my critique or upset to literally any avenue besides trashing you, or anybody for that matter, in a public chat that is not only filled with people who can misinterpret it, but also is actively moderated and logged. This doesn't imply I would shit on you outside of logged areas either ; this just means it's kind of stupid to attack anybody in deadchat. You're shooting yourself in the foot by even bothering, regardless of how angry you are.

My intention replying to this complaint is to curb or at least soften any punishment I may or may not receive. With the above said I obviously don't want to lose access to this part of the game (antags). I have been doing it a lot, for a very long time, and managed to make up for a pretty crappy track record over the years (I hope.) For what it's worth, I'll take a break and just stop playing them as frequently as I have in recent weeks. I've done this before - typically after complaints like this meet a resolution - and those breaks are met with good results.

The exception to the above is going to be stuff I just perceive as a personal attack, which is probably due to your frustration. While I'm more than used to people just outright berating and attacking me, and making up shit for me to be the bad guy, I have more faith in you than that and I'm pretty certain anything excessive said here was done in a heated manner.

4 hours ago, WickedCybs said:

It's strange to me that Kyres would even begin tearing into essentially the entire crew that shift for not voting to kill their colleagues, for grouping together instead of hiding and dying and for trying to kill two people presenting themselves as insane killers who can't be talked down.

What is said above is most, if not everything I said in deadchat on the matter. However I asked you, and generally when you hear this it is quite important, to not twist my words somewhere in there. As it's in text and you can't obviously glean a tone in most cases, my best advice to you is to not assume I'm out to somehow tear into - if such a thing is even possible to feasibly do - the entire manifest of twenty, maybe more people. I screenshotted the entire exchange after realizing this was going to the forums. Four really important messages were left out.

"don't twist my words please"

I'm used to my words being used against me. It should be no surprise that text is difficult to parse intention or expression in, so people can twist them to fit their intentions. In this case, you're making me out to be way more upset than I actually am, and pretending my only expectation was for the crew to "just die." For full clarity the next screenshot is what came before that, so we're absolutely clear that's not the only thing you said.

You say I made this happen. Yeah. I know I made it happen. I had a sword and I was getting shot to death by six, and more people in a dark tunnel. I was on fire. I suicide bombed with a welder tank. I decapitated Rey Zarzamora an hour beforehand. I did numerous egregious things ICly that led up to escalating to me getting shot. I never said anything about how I died was surprising ; plainly, I worded it just as you said in the complaint. The odds were overwhelmingly against me, as they are in every other round. It's frustrating, because I deal with this every day! Do I get super duper upset and start insulting people daily? No. I don't. I play a lot. You'd have to be not only implying you don't ahelp this, but nobody else ahelps it, and then no admins or moderators see it, for hours of every day ceaselessly back and forth.

"and dont say i'm bitching when i'm entirely calm"

This is a preventative statement because you have insistently called me upset before when I have been entirely calm. Your only action when a person with power is telling you to calm down is to effectively fuck off ; if you say "I'm calm," they'll tell you you're lying and your words speak for themselves, and if you tell them to shut up, you're digging your own grave.

"unless this is another passive aggressive way of telling me to shut up in deadchat from a moderator standpoint"

See above. This is pretty much me re-affirming that I am confident it's a landmine, and is entirely a serious question, because I have no intention of ever arguing with any staff ever when they are holding their position over my head.

"in which case i will just shut up"

This is said because, again, I don't have any intention of arguing if you are telling me to shut up. You can literally just ban me for continuing, dude, and I am well aware of this. Afterwards, Matt did the proper thing and actually just told the conversation to stop in plain text.

This seems to be a recurring case with so much you've heard me say in dead chat as quite frequently I am assessed with a "shut up" or "stop talking about this" when things are entirely calm.

4 hours ago, WickedCybs said:

(JMP) DEAD Kyres1 (Terror) moans, "and slugs and ballistics and riot gear and tajara with bullpups and etc etc"

This is a key statement here, as I assume you intend to refer to Radic (who is Cybs) as being the only Tajara in security and thus this is or can be construed as an insult towards you. So, I'll go ahead and tell you the truth ; it's not. First of all, the statement was in clear reference to the power of security and my frustration towards it. Your behavior, your person, your character, nothing had anything to do with this statement that should be seen as insulting.

The power of security is extremely overwhelming. The only antagonist capable of properly holding their own is mercenaries, without some major shameless powergaming in play. This is completely fine because I honestly do not like the concept of antagonists as they are (this does not mean I don't find them fun to play or engage with), so do not take this for my complaint. However, when you are on the receiving end of it, it is naturally quite frustrating, no matter how many times you get your face stomped in. Dying is usually completely fine, it comes with escalation and roleplay and buildup. But sometimes, you'll run into scenarios where a G2 facetanks your chungus cannon and grabs you and ends your round at 00:35. It's not a great feeling, but it's never something to rip people apart over. Ever.

4 hours ago, WickedCybs said:

I am frustrated, as it is a dice roll whether Kyres will begin complaining about people who can't even see the terrible things they say about others (often friends) or just accept it.

By this you effectively mean you're frustrated because I get frustrated, and then just lying and saying I say terrible things about others.

You can see the previous writing to probably help solidify this idea, but I do not think I say any terrible things about any particular people, especially not in deadchat, which is again just shooting myself in the foot. If I were truly offended by these people's play, and wanted to say terrible things about them, why would I do it in such an overt way as you've described in a moderated and logged environment? I want to say this is a matter of how much faith you can put into me, because that's basically the only defense I have against however you paint what I'm doing. I do not say terrible things about anybody in deadchat.

5 hours ago, WickedCybs said:

I've challenged them on this before and they usually stop posting about it, an example of that can be seen on a changling round (cjG-adyg) where security was considering destroying their body before they even revived.

You have not. Every confrontation is basically you butting in with a moderator tag and telling the entire deadchat conversation to stop. There is no such thing as arguing with a moderator in deadchat ; you're literally asking for a ban at that point. This is again basically calling me stupid, or maybe stuck-up enough to think I have enough sway to do this sort of thing. Further, I have no solid memory of this round, so if you post the logs I will probably be able to recall and actually defend myself in the event whatever I said was noteworthy.

5 hours ago, WickedCybs said:

I do know others who have seen this behavior, and I will ask them to post if it'd be useful and not turn this into a "he said she said" situation.

I don't want this to turn into a multi-week dog pile. If you need extraneous input, what exactly made you post this complaint without collecting it first? Without putting words in your mouth, this feels like maximizing the amount of grief this can generate instead of trying to go for the quickest solution.

5 hours ago, WickedCybs said:

They do not ahelp their issues and should not be antagging at all if they can't handle what the possible conclusions to their gimmicks will be.

I play antagonist practically every other day. I can not recall a solemn time on the Horizon or in recent memory for that matter where I've actually survived an entire round as one. To assume I can "not handle" the possible conclusions of a gimmick assumes I haven't already seen the craziest bullshit the server can muster and put on my plate. Once again, I have absolutely no reason to be insulting anybody in deadchat.

5 hours ago, WickedCybs said:

I actively argued with them and was reminded to stop and formally make a ticket rather than continuing to cross a line. There are no real excuses on that, and I can comment on it if required.

You do this, and I don't mean to cherry pick your words, but you even said you've confronted me before about it with mod access to deadchat. I'm a big advocate for staff chatting up any channel they can get their hands on, there's literally no reason to restrict it ; however, when you use this to frequently debate people's opinions spoken in a place known for incoherent salt and whining, do you expect not the least bit of woes when you are in total control of the conversation? It'd be like if Garnascus argued with someone he community banned. That's an example, of course, but the point is that the person has avenues to pursue that are not dead-end. In your case, you have had plentiful opportunities to just ahelp, since, if this happens frequently (It does, and the complaint doesn't disagree) you're seeing this enough to regard it as a frustrating enough issue to not only make public in a forum complaint, but go around asking for help to ensure a punishment is received. As kindly as I can put it, that upsets me to be on the receiving end of. Again.

I'll give you a healthy apology regardless of what you might think, have thought or now think of me. I think there is a lot of valid criticism to have in my behavior across a lot of my history, and not just because I've been so active for so long. Complaints are really stressful to have, though, especially when you're more than certain they will result in action if you don't properly defend your position ; which, I basically have to, or else I could get antag banned or worse. So, if anything came off as abrasive, I have to further apologize, but understand I probably won't realize unless you say something about it. I'm not asking for you to assume bad intent with this post, to be clear there - I simply don't want to come off as an asshole by defending myself.

 

[WickedCybs]

7 hours ago, kyres1 said:

"don't twist my words please"

I'm used to my words being used against me. It should be no surprise that text is difficult to parse intention or expression in, so people can twist them to fit their intentions. In this case, you're making me out to be way more upset than I actually am, and pretending my only expectation was for the crew to "just die." For full clarity the next screenshot is what came before that, so we're absolutely clear that's not the only thing you said.

This is a weak excuse and It's one you have used before. What you post will be read as is and if you honestly cared about clarifying anything you would have done so. I'll focus on the paragraphs that aren't dominated by this thought of yours.

I also made it quite clear that's not the only thing I said. I posted the worst possible statement I could have made during that conversation to be transparent about this.

7 hours ago, kyres1 said:

This is a key statement here, as I assume you intend to refer to Radic (who is Cybs) as being the only Tajara in security and thus this is or can be construed as an insult towards you. So, I'll go ahead and tell you the truth ; it's not. First of all, the statement was in clear reference to the power of security and my frustration towards it. Your behavior, your person, your character, nothing had anything to do with this statement that should be seen as insulting.

It's not really a key statement, It's one of many made by you. I'm aware Tajara are a topic that comes up frequently for you to complain about. The bit I did assume was directed at me, was when you suicide bombed security and then lamented after the fact to dchat they would run through the fire to shoot you despite you teleporting into the fire to kill the warden and lingering in the area to kill as many people as you possibly could while they were trying to get wounded out. The action in-round was fine. Your comments were not.

Quote

You say I made this happen. Yeah. I know I made it happen. I had a sword and I was getting shot to death by six, and more people in a dark tunnel. I was on fire. I suicide bombed with a welder tank. I decapitated Rey Zarzamora an hour beforehand. I did numerous egregious things ICly that led up to escalating to me getting shot. I never said anything about how I died was surprising ; plainly, I worded it just as you said in the complaint. The odds were overwhelmingly against me, as they are in every other round. It's frustrating, because I deal with this every day! Do I get super duper upset and start insulting people daily? No. I don't. I play a lot. You'd have to be not only implying you don't ahelp this, but nobody else ahelps it, and then no admins or moderators see it, for hours of every day ceaselessly back and forth.

Which all precedes you becoming incredibly vitriolic about how not one person had self preservation and what a joke everything was. How else and am I supposed to read this? How else is anyone else supposed to interpret it? You have to moderate what you say because "I didn't mean it like that" isn't really a valid excuse.

It hasn't been ahelped, because It's typically handled with the standard "ahelp instead of discussing the problem here" or you reversing course and mentioning not actually having a problem.

7 hours ago, kyres1 said:

This seems to be a recurring case with so much you've heard me say in dead chat as quite frequently I am assessed with a "shut up" or "stop talking about this" when things are entirely calm.

It doesn't really matter if you and others are completely calm. Dogpiling and insulting people who will never see what you type is still a problem.

7 hours ago, kyres1 said:

You have not. Every confrontation is basically you butting in with a moderator tag and telling the entire deadchat conversation to stop. There is no such thing as arguing with a moderator in deadchat ; you're literally asking for a ban at that point. 

No, not really. I've earnestly talked to you about stuff, other people have as well. The whole "state of security and antags" conversation has been done before. When it gets volatile though, "butting in with the mod tag" and telling people to drop it is the job, Kyres. The deadchat conversation stops as soon as you start complaining about things you ought to have ahelped. I don't expect anyone to challenge staff in that regard when we say as much but nobody gets banned over it unless they're incredibly hostile. 

7 hours ago, kyres1 said:

I don't want this to turn into a multi-week dog pile. If you need extraneous input, what exactly made you post this complaint without collecting it first? 

I'm not going to post a highlight reel of quotes from random people affirming what I'm saying if that's what you mean. I know who to ask to post here if it becomes relevant to do so.

7 hours ago, kyres1 said:

You do this, and I don't mean to cherry pick your words, but you even said you've confronted me before about it with mod access to deadchat. I'm a big advocate for staff chatting up any channel they can get their hands on, there's literally no reason to restrict it ; however, when you use this to frequently debate people's opinions spoken in a place known for incoherent salt and whining, do you expect not the least bit of woes when you are in total control of the conversation? It'd be like if Garnascus argued with someone he community banned. That's an example, of course, but the point is that the person has avenues to pursue that are not dead-end. In your case, you have had plentiful opportunities to just ahelp, since, if this happens frequently (It does, and the complaint doesn't disagree) you're seeing this enough to regard it as a frustrating enough issue to not only make public in a forum complaint, but go around asking for help to ensure a punishment is received. As kindly as I can put it, that upsets me to be on the receiving end of. Again.

It's not really a debate when I say "Just ahelp it and stop complaining" to people. In this case I do realize that I should not have talked to you outside of a ticket. I should have just PM'd you and applied a note, warning or ban. That would have been the reasonable thing to do from a staff-perspective and it could have been done earlier. Staff are still human however. I get irritated at deadchat for peanut gallerying. I got especially irritated at you in this case. You've been at least pretending to be my friend for a while now, which made it all the more disheartening to see how you acted. 

7 hours ago, kyres1 said:

I'll give you a healthy apology regardless of what you might think, have thought or now think of me. I think there is a lot of valid criticism to have in my behavior across a lot of my history, and not just because I've been so active for so long. Complaints are really stressful to have, though, especially when you're more than certain they will result in action if you don't properly defend your position ; which, I basically have to, or else I could get antag banned or worse. So, if anything came off as abrasive, I have to further apologize, but understand I probably won't realize unless you say something about it. I'm not asking for you to assume bad intent with this post, to be clear there - I simply don't want to come off as an asshole by defending myself.

The "reconciliation" aspect of your arguing is always going to look bad after everything else you've said as you've made it entirely about you. You've been projecting some intense paranoia on your colleagues and the players. You've made it more than clear I've effectively made you act like this due to the complaint even existing what with the whole "Look at what you made me do" posting. I think It's more than clear I respected you before, and I've defended you in the past. Reading this quasi-apology though just makes me feel stupid for ever doing so, I would have felt better if you didn't go out of your way to put it into your post.

So yeah. I'm not really keeping this fact hidden or anything. It does upset me to see how OOC channels are used and it feels like pulling teeth to get a ticket out of the regular complaining about sec/antags for the day. For those who just can't bring up their issues to staff, not talking about it publicly has always been an option.

[kyres1]

6 hours ago, WickedCybs said:

This is a weak excuse and It's one you have used before. What you post will be read as is and if you honestly cared about clarifying anything you would have done so. I'll focus on the paragraphs that aren't dominated by this thought of yours.

Me asking for you to not call my comments just bitching was the clarification. And, it may come as some surprise to anybody reading this with however they may view me, but I do honestly care about not only my image in the community, but the fact that you are a person on the other side of the screen. I do not want to shit on you as much as I do not want to shit on anybody else.

6 hours ago, WickedCybs said:

It's not really a key statement, It's one of many made by you. I'm aware Tajara are a topic that comes up frequently for you to complain about. The bit I did assume was directed at me, was when you suicide bombed security and then lamented after the fact to dchat they would run through the fire to shoot you despite you teleporting into the fire to kill the warden and lingering in the area to kill as many people as you possibly could while they were trying to get wounded out. The action in-round was fine. Your comments were not.

I did not intentionally teleport into the fire. Nor did I intentionally linger. I died almost thirty seconds after the engagement began - frankly, I didn't expect my stims to wear off so quickly, but I was met with a lot of firepower and multiple people carrying multiple rifles - a mixture of lasers and ballistics, meaning every effort to get beyond and out was pretty much nonexistent. No, I did not plot to kill as many people as I possibly could. This is assuming I'm after some high score with executing security again, and to paint this more clearly, is treating me like an idiot off-handedly while going back to saying the comments themselves are the focus of this particular section.

6 hours ago, WickedCybs said:

Which all precedes you becoming incredibly vitriolic about how not one person had self preservation and what a joke everything was. How else and am I supposed to read this? How else is anyone else supposed to interpret it? You have to moderate what you say because "I didn't mean it like that" isn't really a valid excuse.

It hasn't been ahelped, because It's typically handled with the standard "ahelp instead of discussing the problem here" or you reversing course and mentioning not actually having a problem.

Okay. I will tell you the same thing I almost (or maybe have?) told Matt in the ticket that led into this. In the absolute worst case scenario (which is not this case), let's say I'm insulting an entire manifest of people. The manifest this time around was, at minimum due to the roundtype, 13 people, I'd wager more due to latejoins. So let's be generous and say there's only 13 people on this manifest. Now let's say I make a pointed insult towards 13 tangentially related people for some unknowable reason with intent to upset them all. I have to return the same thought process to you ; why exactly would this be seen in any harmful manner, much less actually be insulting to the people playing the game?

Now, I'm not going to say this is at all what actually happened. The population was larger, the intention was not to upset anyone, and I did not once say I didn't mean it seriously.

My critique was, to me, still valid, and I still hold to the judgement I made, in admittedly some frustration, to comment on it in deadchat. Were it not for that, I wouldn't have cooled down, though simultaneously I had to deal with this in its place, which I couldn't have seen coming until Matt confirmed it was going to the forums at roundend.

Is this "critique," or "insult," or whatever you'd like to call it, actually insulting to anybody on the manifest? It's about as insulting as calling an entire manifest of extended players chair roleplayers. It's ineffectual. If it genuinely honestly offends you, then I in turn have no idea what to say, because for all I know you're reaching for stuff to be offended by. Should I never comment in a derogatory way towards a massive, mostly unrelated and barely attached-together player group again? Maybe? I don't know. This is, to me, something that does not matter.

7 hours ago, WickedCybs said:

It doesn't really matter if you and others are completely calm. Dogpiling and insulting people who will never see what you type is still a problem.

Okay but if I had an issue with these people I am more than capable of DMing 95% of them or questioning them or critiquing them in out-of-character channels. I have done this. Many times. To say all I do is insult people in deadchat once more assumes I'm insulting any particular people much less... dog piling? I'm usually the one who ends up trying to justify actions and behavior against a dog pile.

7 hours ago, WickedCybs said:

No, not really. I've earnestly talked to you about stuff,

No, you really haven't. I recall precisely one misunderstanding in relay OOC. I don't even recall the substance or end goal of it, beyond it being somehow related to lore discussions in the OOC channel.

7 hours ago, WickedCybs said:

other people have as well.

First of all, if this had been in any public channel, I don't remember it.

Second of all, if this had been in any private channel, I can give you an absolute certainty that I have not been confronted about any sort of attitude or behavioral problems from an official or unofficial standpoint in what might be literally years. My most recent debacle would probably be the closest to this, where you can see the contents of the warning below, and this happened over a year ago. My only warning before that goes straight to 2018.

So, no. Other people have not gone and talked to me whatsoever about the insulting, vitriolic behavior you are insisting I'm frequently taking on in deadchat, or any chat for that matter.

This particular note (you being told that other people have supposedly spoken to me) is of pretty great importance to me, because it's pretty much telling me you're being fed some completely different narrative that leads you to believe I am getting knee-deep in this shit on a daily basis.

7 hours ago, WickedCybs said:

The whole "state of security and antags" conversation has been done before. When it gets volatile though, "butting in with the mod tag" and telling people to drop it is the job, Kyres. The deadchat conversation stops as soon as you start complaining about things you ought to have ahelped. I don't expect anyone to challenge staff in that regard when we say as much but nobody gets banned over it unless they're incredibly hostile. 

You talk in deadchat nigh constantly every day I see you playing. In my eyes, you'll say these inflammatory things similarly to how you told me to stop bitching, and then shut it down when you receive the least bit of backtalk. Why? Because you're the moderator. That's frustrating. Did I particularly care until this complaint? No, I really didn't. But you're effectively turning half of the content of this complaint into how I am changing the definitions and implied tone of my messages to suit my needs. Am I supposed to not be confused and frustrated when this is being leveled against me from a moderator of all people, who can basically just tone up how hostile I'm being and react by punishing me?

7 hours ago, WickedCybs said:

I'm not going to post a highlight reel of quotes from random people affirming what I'm saying if that's what you mean. I know who to ask to post here if it becomes relevant to do so.

Okay but if they're posting here it is going to become a highlight reel of random people butting in to spread whatever they can or want to do precisely what you're doing, which is to seek action against me for my wrongdoings. You didn't think, as a person who has to deal with privately administering punishment every day, that it might've been worthwhile to sort your damning quotes out beforehand?

More importantly, exactly when will it "become relevant" to start posting shit to secure action against me? What does that even mean?

7 hours ago, WickedCybs said:

You've been at least pretending to be my friend for a while now, which made it all the more disheartening to see how you acted. 

I have not once called you a friend to me in any genuine context or even made the assumption that you are in any way perceiving me or have ever perceived me in a light that isn't just general disdain. In effect, I have to treat you with the same ten foot pole anybody else on the internet, much less the extremely ridiculously controversial SS13 community, should receive. Does it mean I hate your guts? No. But don't go out of your way to pull the cliche pitiful angle about how disheartened you are and how much of a shocker it is that I would ever do wrong to you when I have no such obligation to just let you attack me.

A disclaimer on that is that you have been in groups that I've probably off handedly referred to you as a friend in. Maybe there's a misunderstanding there, who knows, but given you're going for the throat, I don't have much choice but to defend what I have here.

7 hours ago, WickedCybs said:

The "reconciliation" aspect of your arguing is always going to look bad after everything else you've said as you've made it entirely about you.

You're making a complaint. Against me. The subject of the day is to literally seek punishment against me. The apology did not come before or after I made my intention to defend myself clear. It came in the very same post. To tell me that a genuine apology is just another aspect of my arguing seriously pisses me off, and it should be clear that I'm not under any obligation to apologize to you either in any context. It ultimately boils down to you assuming the absolute conceivable worst of me and then morphing it into your next angle in your reply.

7 hours ago, WickedCybs said:

You've been projecting some intense paranoia on your colleagues and the players.

I am going to tackle this by saying that not a single part of this complaint or my behavior could be attributed to any sort of indication that I am at all "intensely paranoid."

I am also going to tell you this is the second time in a public forum I have been falsely accused of being a manic paranoid.

I am then going to ask you why exactly you believe I am paranoid and I will be very honest when I say this : I am not about to be treated like I am crazy by you, or anybody for that matter.

8 hours ago, WickedCybs said:

You've made it more than clear I've effectively made you act like this due to the complaint even existing what with the whole "Look at what you made me do" posting.

I will repeat the entire intention to my reply from the first post just for this.

Spoiler

My intention replying to this complaint is to curb or at least soften any punishment I may or may not receive. With the above said I obviously don't want to lose access to this part of the game (antags). I have been doing it a lot, for a very long time, and managed to make up for a pretty crappy track record over the years (I hope.) For what it's worth, I'll take a break and just stop playing them as frequently as I have in recent weeks. I've done this before - typically after complaints like this meet a resolution - and those breaks are met with good results.

The exception to the above is going to be stuff I just perceive as a personal attack, which is probably due to your frustration. While I'm more than used to people just outright berating and attacking me, and making up shit for me to be the bad guy, I have more faith in you than that and I'm pretty certain anything excessive said here was done in a heated manner.

With the above there, I don't have any reason or want to beat around the bush. There is no pity party of "look what you made me do, wah wah" on my end - I do not care what you in particular think, at least not after what you've said in this complaint. I want you to take that second paragraph into account as well, because I really honestly tried to see your standpoint on the matter as level headed as I could.

8 hours ago, WickedCybs said:

I think It's more than clear I respected you before, and I've defended you in the past.

See the above entry of how I effectively treat you and recognize you as a stranger.

8 hours ago, WickedCybs said:

Reading this quasi-apology though just makes me feel stupid for ever doing so, I would have felt better if you didn't go out of your way to put it into your post.

You are once more just taking what I'm saying, calling it wholly disingenuous, and then twisting the angle to make it out like you're worse off for... me apologizing. You could've gone many angles ; perhaps even just not accepted the apology to begin with. Instead, you opted to treat it like it's not only dirt, but shattered any assumed "respect" you had for me, which again I don't even believe could have existed considering we know each other so sparsely.

This is basically just telling me to fuck off for trying to defend myself, then telling me to fuck off for even putting anything remotely reconcilable in my post, then telling me to fuck off because I've shattered faith you had that - up until this point, I didn't even know, and still don't even know existed.

8 hours ago, WickedCybs said:

So yeah. I'm not really keeping this fact hidden or anything. It does upset me to see how OOC channels are used and it feels like pulling teeth to get a ticket out of the regular complaining about sec/antags for the day. For those who just can't bring up their issues to staff, not talking about it publicly has always been an option.

The moral of the story behind this entire complaint can be summarized to me with this. This is my only takeaway that has stuck so far. The rest is just a mountain of dirt you're heaping up against me for what very well could be the first instance of this in years.

[WickedCybs]

3 hours ago, kyres1 said:

 

So, no. Other people have not gone and talked to me whatsoever about the insulting, vitriolic behavior you are insisting I'm frequently taking on in deadchat, or any chat for that matter.

Yes, other people have talked to you about your behavior and you've chosen to ignore them. I refer to the community, not staff talking to you personally about these issues and applying warnings. The doomsaying and general complaining is common enough. Fairly certain this has been noted on your staff applications as well. You just ignore it.

3 hours ago, kyres1 said:

You talk in deadchat nigh constantly every day I see you playing. In my eyes, you'll say these inflammatory things similarly to how you told me to stop bitching, and then shut it down when you receive the least bit of backtalk. Why? Because you're the moderator. That's frustrating.

Feel free to post any examples or a round ID as I have done.

3 hours ago, kyres1 said:

I have not once called you a friend to me in any genuine context or even made the assumption that you are in any way perceiving me or have ever perceived me in a light that isn't just general disdain. In effect, I have to treat you with the same ten foot pole anybody else on the internet, much less the extremely ridiculously controversial SS13 community, should receive. Does it mean I hate your guts? No. But don't go out of your way to pull the cliche pitiful angle about how disheartened you are and how much of a shocker it is that I would ever do wrong to you when I have no such obligation to just let you attack me.

A disclaimer on that is that you have been in groups that I've probably off handedly referred to you as a friend in. Maybe there's a misunderstanding there, who knows, but given you're going for the throat, I don't have much choice but to defend what I have here.

This illustrates what I'm trying to say. You double down on an intense reversal, say something vitriolic, strangely change course while somehow thinking this is the way to cover for yourself? I don't know how I'm supposed to interpret "No, we were never friends, how could you possibly think that? Disclaimer: Yes I called you a friend. I'm defending myself though, I have no choice." other than that this wasn't really a misunderstanding, you just easily and quickly turn on others. If it was even relevant to this complaint I'd provide further examples of you specifically seeking me out, having some friendly banter or whatever else. So yes. I am disheartened and I did expect better from you, unfortunately. Thank you for at least re-affirming to me you haven't ever been sincere in this thread and outside of it.

Now, again. The reason I made the complaint in the first place is how you act in OOC channels. I don't really need to highlight anything else here as most of what you have posted is again just self victimization justifying your increasingly abhorrent behavior and it speaks for itself in the context of what this complaint is about. You have an issue with how you approach anything that troubles you and it needs to stop or be taken to where it's not going to be publicly seen and it frequently happens after you antag.

Edited September 7, 2022 by WickedCybs

[kyres1]

5 hours ago, WickedCybs said:

I refer to the community, not staff talking to you personally about these issues and applying warnings.

8 hours ago, kyres1 said:

I have not been confronted about any sort of attitude or behavioral problems from an official or unofficial standpoint in what might be literally years.

In case you misread, I said official or unofficial. People don't take a liking to approaching other people about their wrongdoings. I especially don't get DMs, much less pings in public discords telling me how shitty my attitude is. Ever. If you expected this to be any different, I don't know what to tell you.

5 hours ago, WickedCybs said:

This illustrates what I'm trying to say. You double down on an intense reversal, say something vitriolic, strangely change course while somehow thinking this is the way to cover for yourself?

This is not a reversal. I am reacting to the way you are behaving in this complaint and saying the honest truth.

I don't think I changed course at all. Half my second reply was doubling down on things I said in the first reply.

5 hours ago, WickedCybs said:

I don't know how I'm supposed to interpret "No, we were never friends, how could you possibly think that? Disclaimer: Yes I called you a friend. I'm defending myself though, I have no choice." other than that this wasn't really a misunderstanding, you just easily and quickly turn on others.

I would hope you interpret it exactly as it was said, considering the context of this. My intention in saying this was pretty clearly to outline that I have never had any sort of ridiculous responsibility or obligation to label you so dearly as a friend. You are pulling this out as a card against me and proceeding to tell me, yet again, that I "easily and quickly turn on others."

That's unbelievably insulting. You're going to go this far, in a public complaint, to try and test the trust people may have in me by using my defensive behavior and the literal fact that I don't know you almost at all to say I easily and quickly turn on people.

5 hours ago, WickedCybs said:

If it was even relevant to this complaint I'd provide further examples of you specifically seeking me out, having some friendly banter or whatever else. 

I'm not about to hold you to "post evidence that we were ever friends." I don't ping you or talk to you outside of public chats and I know next to nothing about you.

5 hours ago, WickedCybs said:

So yes. I am disheartened and I did expect better from you, unfortunately. Thank you for at least re-affirming to me you haven't ever been sincere in this thread and outside of it.

This is more manipulative and insulting wording. You are basically calling everything : see "ever been sincere," I've said here, bullshit and maybe everything else I've ever said too.

Exactly when did your first affirmation become that I'm an insincere bastard? Wasn't this complaint about vitriolic behavior? Why am I just being toted as a liar by you now? Have I lied once?

5 hours ago, WickedCybs said:

I don't really need to highlight anything else here as most of what you have posted is again just self victimization justifying your increasingly abhorrent behavior and it speaks for itself in the context of what this complaint is about.

Here's your thought process.

You make a complaint targeted at one person. The one person explains themselves. The one person explains why they're defending it and defends their stance. You call it "self victimization" and "justifying increasingly abhorrent behavior," and that it speaks for itself so much so that I assume you're trying to disconnect from the argument altogether. 

I gotta ask you. Am I supposed to just crumple like paper when people turn me into a public circus? Do I just shut up and hope whatever damning shit you pull out of your sleeve doesn't screw me over, harm my actual friendships, my hobbies, my presence on the server, my ability to play the server, and more? This is obviously all rhetorical because I really should not just shut up. I've learned this before. If I keep my mouth shut, people will just say anything about me. Speaking of which, let's go over what you've said in this complaint that not only challenges my mental health, but is just plainly insulting.

You have :

1. Called me paranoid, with no basis for this accusation. You dodged answering as to why, exactly, you called me this. Not that it's okay or not plain manipulative to call anybody paranoid to begin with.

2. Been demonstrably dishonest with me by claiming we have some affiliation with one another that, in any regard, would demand some form of heightened respect when I barely know you.

3. Used the dishonest claims above to try twisting the onus on me by saying my behavior in defending myself is abhorrent, self-victimizing, vitriolic, and desperately justifying myself.

4. Discarded what was a sincere apology and, once more, disputed it by insisting I'm the one being dishonest and insincere. Apparently apologizing on a complaint about me using me as a subject is strange?

5. Claimed I'm effectively making this a pity party towards myself.

6. Claimed that you have potentially damning evidence stored by people who can optionally volunteer this evidence in the complaint, but you're waiting for the right time, as if this is a game you're trying to get bonus points in.

None of this shit is core to the original complaint, but it's definitely made an impression on me, and I can give you a certainty that it's made an impression on whoever else read this already-novel-length thread. Once more, I have to ask you if I'm supposed to just submit to this. The thing is, replying to this thread was just as optional as me getting punished in the first place from it. I could've just gone and said nothing and my punishment would be in the air until it was officially handled. However, you have a peculiar way of particularly reaching for some sort of reaction and trying to cling to whatever you can get from the upset that is obviously going to come after it.

You painted me as an idiotic asshole whose behavior is a dice roll to attack (yours or my own) friends in avenues they can't see me in. Because of this, the very first post challenged the idea that anybody could trust me, and to no surprise, that's quite frustrating. I defended myself. The above occurred. You claim I twisted the way I'm approaching this argument to cover my ass. I didn't say anything remotely equivalent to what's on that list.

Also, I will put this in a different color text  and size for certainty and so you basically can't miss it. Please answer this.

9 hours ago, kyres1 said:

I am then going to ask you why exactly you believe I am paranoid and I will be very honest when I say this : I am not about to be treated like I am crazy by you, or anybody for that matter.

 

[ReadThisNamePlz]

Before we can continue, Alb and I need specific examples of the behavior that you are talking about, @WickedCybs

[WickedCybs]

1 hour ago, ReadThisNamePlz said:

Before we can continue, Alb and I need specific examples of the behavior that you are talking about, @WickedCybs

The dchat logs from IcjL-dITU (the ninja round, most of it was already posted though) and cjG-adyg (the changeling round). Those are two instances where kyres died or ghosted and then complained in dchat rather than ahelp it.

[ReadThisNamePlz]

@kyres1 @WickedCybs

Alb and I have searched the given logs, and we both conclude that while the actions and tone present come off as rude and in bad faith, Kyres does stop after being told to, and ultimately does not seem to have any actual malicious intent. Clearly, this is just the use of the Dead Channel to vent their frustration, and while this is not necessarily okay- we do not see any reason to take any major administrative action against Kyres. Instead, a note for a paper trail will be made. Kyres, stop venting so much in deadchat and take your frustrations somewhere else, like the forums. This should also be done in a constructive way, so if you do continue to do it in the dead chat- you need to be more constructive, less sarcastic and overall nicer with the tone.

[kyres1]

I'm completely fine with this resolution. @ReadThisNamePlz

[ReadThisNamePlz]

Great. I'll close this now.