Sophie/Peppermint

[Scheveningen]

BYOND Key: Scheveningen
Staff BYOND Key: Sophie/Peppermint(?)
Game ID: Relay discord.
Reason for complaint: "You were told to stop targeting people ICly and staff would handle the issue, but have continued now icly. Take time out to cool off" - Discord Ban length 7 days
Evidence/logs/etc:
 
So this was a surprise and came pretty far out of left field for me to see today when I got into my car to warm up and get ready to leave my place of work (it was snowing today!). 

Since it genuinely did not occur to me the context that this ban was actually for, I asked the banning staff member what this was about, because this discord ban of considerable length immediately confused me.



I went back into the DMs I shared with Cybs, and then it occurred to me.



It was about the Downfall Discourse.™ 
Anyway, I said the movie sucked, Sputnik said I was discrediting a "great film" depicting the last days of Hitler's regime, I said it still sucked as a movie, he replies by saying that I felt that because I was "very disconnected and distant from the events" - probably because I wasn't alive when the Holocaust happened, sorry, born in the wrong generation I guess. The conversation immediately ends after a few closing comments because everyone knows anything related to the discussion of WW2 is utterly dumb and yet it still gets brought up anyway. Moving on, this is the context of what Cybs told me "no", which was to not allude anyone to Nazi ideology. That's a very specific "don't do this on relay" behavior and that seems like a pretty acceptable request, given all discussion of WW2-aligned stories with non-experts always ends up very dumb.

This tangent only exists to avoid posting the screenshot I replied to Soph with, which contained information of another staff matter that doesn't need to be brought up. I hate Downfall. It is a bad movie to talk about. Nobody bring up Downfall again.



However, this has very little to do with what the ban reason actually appears to be, which is Soph accusing me of metagrudging through IC channels. It really was a waste of time to explain the Downfall discourse™, but none of this makes sense without that, as that bad interaction with Sputnik is being directly used as evidence for metagrudging through IC channels. The evidence I am later linked by Soph, however, only displays these two quips from my character against Arges.

This needs additional context, so I will also cite a few witnesses of several strung-out relay conversations between Yasmin and Arges, and Arges with anyone else, for that matter. They can largely testify, for the most part, that any IC antagonism going on between Yasmin and Arges is business-as-usual rivalry and in-department shitflinging. @Misiek1001 @Sycmos @MattAtlas 

The following will be put into a spoiler as it is long and details that there is in fact, in-character goings on on my side and on Sputnik's.
 

Spoiler

I will describe the progression of my investigator character, Yasmin, so far. She is a San Coletter whom, prior to even experiencing one shift on the Horizon -- which will rapidly make you insane with the amount of political extremists and culturally unhinged ideologies present in the lore that affect many different types of characters -- held a very dim view of Solarian coreworlders with ultranationalist tendencies and a great tendency to glorify violence and promote the exploitation of normal people. She holds Terrans(i.e., Earthers) as being especially responsible for plunging a majority of former Alliance space into poverty and putting many worlds into an incredibly precarious position where anything outside the core worlds is incredibly unstable and stands to be at threat of being invaded by any of the various insane Solarian warlords at any given time. 

She was present for the September 18th event, and the first thing that happened when she was called to be on her way to regroup with the security team and attempt to use her negotiating skills to the ship's advantage was that she caught a bullet fired in the direction of the security mech in front of her in the hall. This bullet was the first of many bullets fired in the direction of the security team that had some members try mutiny, as a treat. This event made her take an even dimmer view of what most people consider the Garden Variety Solarian as described in the lore blurb for the Solarian nationality (nationalistic, xenophobic, militarism apologists). So in effect, Yasmin hates anyone that looks, talks, acts like the spitting image of a murderous mercenary militarist, as she finds them morally objectionable and absurd.

Where Wolf Arges comes in is that, to Yasmin, Arges is the spitting image of this, and for her to personally deal with the fact that such a person exists in close proximity, she antagonizes and roasts whom she sees as the stereotypical Solarian. To this I ask, what is the point of making characters if there is not allowed to be ideological pushback against the virtues and values of said characters? Fisanduhites and Dominians are the most famous national rivalry on the server and people cheer this on, because it is in-character and not meant to be taken seriously. There are zero Dominian players who are monarchist-fascist aligned and there are zero Fisanduhian players who car bomb their annoying evangelist neighbors. Arges and Yasmin have bicked numerous times. There is evidence for this on the relay dating back to prior to the Downfall Discourse™.

To the claim that I am metagrudging someone else because I am playing a character to be antagonistic to someone else's a specific way: It is not true. I have zero intent of pushing this person out of the community, and have not made any purposeful attempt to do so. While I have issues with Sputnik as a player, it does not mean I am out to get them OOCly - and again, nor was I intending to, my character was interacting with yours only. Nor did I have motivation to have their character pushed out from the server. I am not suggesting that the resolution for them is to "just deal with it," because that is callous and especially insensitive. I am open to talking to them personally to discuss it at this point, but that is not the point of this complaint. Assuming there was an investigation done on your staff's side of things, why was my input on my involvement in this situation never asked for, and why did you immediately decide to invest full confidence in your own, limited context, and then ban me essentially without warning? It is an insane investigative misstep to not question everyone involved prior to deciding what the proper action is. You presumed I was guilty and banned me without a conversation prior to it.

Currently I feel like I'm the one being pushed out by staff in the only community circles that have any regular conversation which is the community discords, through being banned for a whole week without warning or open staff channels. You blocked me on Discord while I was in the midst of making my final remark, too, so this feels pretty especially personal, especially with the smug remark that "you don't even play" that seriously needs to be removed from community lexicon. It is effectively a passive-aggressive way of stating that someone doesn't matter because they aren't as involved in the community as the people who log on everyday. I cannot but think this is bad faith going on from the handling staffmember and the individuals reviewing this behind staff channels, because this appears horribly mishandled and I possess zero communication from staff about the progression of this situation. It seems more that you chose this was the situation that seemed convenient to remove me from the community space for a week.

 

 

Edited November 12, 2022 by Scheveningen
removed a screenshot that snuck in for some reason

[Peppermint]

Hey, been asked to comment for transparency. All of my logic and reasoning is in the staff relay channel for those who take it - I'm not sure if I'm allowed to copy/paste it over if it's a discussion.

- I was approached by @Sputnik5927 who gave me a rather long breakdown of an OOC metagrudge that looked pretty well documented to me. However I've been away from direct Aurora contact for a little while, and therefor wasn't really sure on the details.

- I asked in the relay mod chat if anyone knew anything about this and what had previously gone down, as another mod had said they'd handled it previously.

- I also copied some details of Sputnik's complaint over and asked the group what they thought, with my reasoning being those comments I linked to you looking very similar to a player taking OOC grievances IC after being told to OOCly stop. However I wasn't really involved previously, so asked what they thought.

- There was general agreement that this looked like a meta grudge, so I asked about punishment. I was under the impression it was going to be a ban, given a long history of relay strikes and in-game notes/warnings/bans regarding cruel comments to other players.

- Spoke about the ban and whatnot. Strikes really don't mean anything, so a temp ban was suggested. Other mods were poked, other people were brought in, ect, as, again, this wasn't an issue I'd been following. And the first thing I was told following me saying that I was willing to handle it was that I should get someone else involved if I was harassed in DMs over it.

- Ban given. Seems very clear case of metagruding to me. You were under no obligation to start an argument with someone's character you don't have to interact with after previous issues brought up.

- You DM'd me. I made it clear you should take it to the forums. Arguing over discord is loss-loss and I do not feel I am at any obligation to handle things like this in my spare time away from server issues. It's a hobby, not a job. I gave some reasoning and then closed my DMs.  Nothing about this is targeted by anyone. Nobody is looking for an excuse to get rid of you, or you'd be gone - case and point there was talk of a perma ban instead being entirely justifiable.

TL;dr: You really had no reason to continue an IC argument against someone you did not have to interact with in that space. Entirely uncalled for and was just another outlet sought in my view. I feel the ban was entirely fair. It would be different in game if forced to interact in the same department or something, but that's not what happened. Nothing about the conversation or space forced you to start another conflict.

[Scheveningen]

- If I do not see direct examples or evidence of this "OOC metagrudging" that is claimed, I am not going to be convinced that this ban is justified, and that and I will instead assert it was doled out arbitrarily and unfairly.

- It is extremely easy to post many examples of someone's behavior and falsely assert malicious intent behind it. I am fully aware of another individual involved in a similar case who received dialogue in-depth from staff regarding their behavior, to the extent that person was actually given the opportunity to move on, improve, and keep playing. Why was the dialogue with the reported person (me, in this case) completely skipped in this case, and the assumptions regarding my involvement and intent immediately assumed to be true? On-server you're expected to actually speak to people regarding a reported situation in-game, and explain to them your reasoning before you issue a ban should that become necessary. Is this suddenly not the case with regards to moderation of the discord server? I know for a fact it is not, because the aforementioned "other individual" was not instantly issued a ban.

- I have already stated the in-character antagonism between my character and Sputnik's pre-dates any negative gaffes I have had with Sputnik. The content and escalation of said IC antagonism has not increased or decreased since then, either, and by definition this is not metagrudging, because the behavior has been exactly the same. Mistyping the ban reason wrong the first time is one thing, trying to backpedal this into accusing me of metagrudging is incredibly insulting, as I am a long time player and I have never once done this, and never will. It is incredibly ironic for you to confess that "you've been away from Aurora from awhile" while also giving me that "you don't even play" spiel. This is deliberately smearing.

- The idea that I have to ignore interacting with someone's character because of the assertion that I was asked to limit my OOC interactions with someone on the player side is not a rule and has never been a rule, nor is there precedent for it that I am aware of. It is neither explicitly against the rules to interact with someone's character in this manner (which, according to the above screenshots, is par for the course anti-Solarian antagonism if not generally below the average line, which is entirely on purpose on my side because I am fully aware to not be over-the-top) nor implicitly either. It is very off-base to extend rule 1 to issue a ban because my character called another a "goober." I have seen far worse stated and said on server between Dominians/Solarians vs. anyone else, and I see zero moderation or reports regarding that. So, what gives?

- My attempts to DM you was to get much needed context as to what was going on on your (the staff's) side that nobody deigned to even screenshotdump exactly what I supposedly did 'wrong' and then ask me to explain it. I believe it can be universally agreed that you should talk to someone, with provided evidence in hand to refute any bad faith arguments, before banning them, yes? I am extremely easy to talk to when I am given the base level of respect that any human being should be given when prodded with a serious issue, and when I am allowed to explain myself or ask questions for context. I become much more difficult to talk to and get frustrated when I am treated like garbage and that I am not given a civil explanation for anything - nor the chance to get more than surface level information when something I don't understand happens, like any human does.

- My personal view is, I do not think the basis of this ban is correct, nor do I think how you carried out your responsibilities as a volunteer of the community was fair or correct, either.

[Sputnik5927]

1 hour ago, Scheveningen said:

- If I do not see direct examples or evidence of this "OOC metagrudging" that is claimed [...]

- It is extremely easy to post many examples of someone's behavior and falsely assert malicious intent behind it. [...]

- I have already stated the in-character antagonism between my character and Sputnik's pre-dates any negative gaffes I have had with Sputnik. The content and escalation of said IC antagonism has not increased or decreased since then, either, and by definition this is not metagrudging, because the behavior has been exactly the same. [...]

- The idea that [...] not be over-the-top) [...] "goober." [...] So, what gives?

- I am extremely easy to talk to when I am given the base level of respect that any human being should be given when prodded with a serious issue, and when I am allowed to explain myself or ask questions for context. [...]

- My personal view is, I do not think the basis of this ban is correct, nor do I think how you carried out your responsibilities as a volunteer of the community was fair or correct, either.

- You aren't exactly discrete about disliking my character. Here are two examples:

- Maybe, but I can only give you so much benefit of the doubt. At some point, you have to take responsibility for what you're saying. Even if you don't mean it this way, you have to think about what you're writing and how it's going to affect others, in one way or another. In this case, it puts me into a position where I second-guess what your character says or does towards my own, besides just being unnecessary and cruel things to say. I'm a Human being and I read what you write and it does affect the way I perceive your IC behaviour - and not without good reason.

- Our sour relations aren't a recent development - they've existed basically since I joined Aurora, given Wolf Arges was my first character. But even if this was the case, the consistently bad IC behaviour is not made good by that. Your character uses modern-day slang and starts fights constantly, to the point I started avoiding the relay when your character was in it, because I felt you would pick apart the first thing you could and derail the whole thing again. It made my experience very bad and discouraged me from engaging in the server roleplay. 

- This is just way too aggressive, over-the-top or strangely modern-political stuff that I cannot engage with in any way that would be fun. It feels sharp and hostile and like you hate my character for the fact that he exists at all, not for any in-universe reason that you could form into a conflict. If you want to see a good example of conflict, see Bill Hickman, who often makes fun of or argues with Wolf, but who does so when it doesn't derail any RP. He uses in-character wording that is unique enough to be identified as clearly IC, makes the conflict relevant to the setting and allows me some room to engage with it and make an interesting interaction. His player also does not act the same way to me OOC and even has characters that are friends with Wolf, which proves that there are absolutely no hard feelings and that we are both here to have fun together and play a sci-fi setting.

- When I tried to contact you over DMs and explain my problems, you sent me a meme in response. My follow-up of "Try to take it seriously" was only heeded after you were banned.

I will not post your DM to me here and let you decide if you want to post it. All I will say is that while I appreciate you being honest with me and explaining yourself, there is no reason to take anything out on me or anyone else in the one place that is supposed to be an escape from the stress we all deal with in our daily lives.

- Peppermint has been exemplary in helping me resolve this issue. I was spoken to with respect, courtesy and compassion for the situation I described - and it was handled professionally. I feel much more comfortable on the relay and server, both OOC and IC. If there ever was a gold standard example of Moderation, this would be it. I'm sorry, Schev, but it's my perception that you know what you were doing. I always try to get along with people, but you have been very sharp to me all the time, seemingly because my character has a "Solarian Marine" vibe about him. And whether you realize the effect of your actions or not, that makes me feel unwelcome in the community just because of a character I want to roleplay.

Edited November 15, 2022 by Sputnik5927

[Peppermint]

- Anyone can ascertain 'another individual got x' with zero proof and it'll never mean anything without actual details. And even then, people handle cases differently or not, with entirely different contexts. Whether you like it or not, you have a very long history of negative interactions with others leading to admin action and have to my mind long since burnt out on good will or the benefit of doubt when it comes to things like this. The fact of the matter is that you did not have to attack someone else after already being told by Cybs it would be looked at.

- Yes, lots of people argue ICly. Lots of people get told to chill when it starts to become an OOC problem. This whataboutism means nothing and entirely misses the purpose. When I'm being told you're alluding to someone being a nazi, attacking them oocly on the character they play prior to this, and then joining IC interactions that previously had nothing to do with you or your character as personal attacks onto them, the evidence really just doesn't look good. If you were previously part of the conversation, sure. But that's not what happened, and I have no reason to doubt the judgement of three other staff members who weighed in on an issue I didn't have much understanding of. You don't have to interact with someone on the relay in an entirely different comment - instead you went after what their character had previously said for no reason I can see, in the exact same manner you were  OOCly criticising them previously for what character they have chosen to play.

- There is no personal attack here. This was a group choice by other staff members too when I asked what they thought should be done. Unless you think this is a co-ordinated effort from pretty much the entire relay team to get at you, there's just no grounds whatsoever for taking this as a personal thing when anybody else would also be told the same.

Edited to be a 'lil more neutral. 

[Garnascus]

Ok, so basically the claim is that @Scheveningen is instigating all of these fights IC and is motivated by OOC grudge? If this is true i would expect the majority of these IC fights to be instigated by @Scheveningen and not @Sputnik5927. Does ANYONE have logs to support either of these claims? I see some singular messages being posted here but its hard to understand the relationship here without larger conversation logs. 

[Scheveningen]

I can't honestly accept that you guys have done your job correctly and in good faith when you posted out a screenshot WHICH WAS EXPLICITLY MEANT TO BE PRIVATE where I report a completely separate issue and, as above, deliberately avoided posting as part of this issue -- on account of realizing over time that I had messed up and that I was harshing on Sputnik way too much. It really seems like you're attempting to publicly embarrass me because you're exercising very little good faith or discretion whatsoever. I see zero reason to post that out there, and it just stirs up this drama further rather than concluding it. I was almost willing to accept personal fault here and sit on the ban until you leaked DMs between myself and a staff member to make me look worse. This is just dumb and embarrassing. Close this thread, but this is not resolved whatsoever. I will literally wait out the discord ban at this rate but it is absolutely unethical and gross how you've chosen to deal with this. 

Edited November 17, 2022 by Scheveningen

[Peppermint]

Yeah, I'm sorry @Scheveningen - I didn't realise these were private, and only just realised from being pinged about it in the other discord. They were posted to the staff chat as an example of what was going on and I thought they were part of what had been discussed with you both. That bit is on me and I take full responsibility.

I've gone ahead and hid both posts that show the DM details, though the admin taking it will be able to see. I don't want to delete them as a way to cover it up or the like.

It's definitely dumb and embarrassing, though more on my side than yours - I don't think this makes you look bad as opposed to it being handled poorly.

 

[Garnascus]

On 17/11/2022 at 14:43, Scheveningen said:

Close this thread, but this is not resolved whatsoever. I will literally wait out the discord ban at this rate but it is absolutely unethical and gross how you've chosen to deal with this. 

Alrighty.

locking and archiving.