Complaint, Houssam Jawdat

[Baka]

BYOND Key: BakaGaijin

Player Byond Key: Jackboot

Reason for complaint:

The round that I am bringing up refers to something that I wanted to talk about with Jackboot, but because of a separate event which happened and the other mod that was on was involved in the round, I want to bring it out and talk about it because in my view it looked like a big question mark. Although there was a few parts I did not see which happened, I feel the need to bring it up.

The Head of Security, Sarah Scott, detained a few voxes, for whatever reason. Jawdat came into security and was in the detaining room with the Scott. Somehow or another, a vox stole a taser gun, and shot at Scott, and there was ensured gunfire. Jawdat somehow got into the hallway on the other side, facing the vox, and in Scott's attempts to detain, had missed and shot Jawdat. A flash bang was thrown as well, which too, Jawdat was caught in the range, and was stunned momentarily.

Then, in the series of ten minutes later, I read that Jawdat was going to "use his power to arrest and strip the HoS of her power because he was shot at and threw a flashbang." He did what he said, arrested the head of security, and let the Vox free.

I am wondering though, why was Jawdat even involved in security matters in the first place as the head of personnel? Was he elected as acting Captain? Why did he throw himself into a detaining scenario, and why did he felt the need to arrest the Head of Security for him essentially being in the wrong side of crossfire? The way that I seen from this with the information I know is that Jawdat was overstepping his boundaries as a Head of Staff by arresting the Head of Security for no real reason other than "I got hit by tazers for being in the wrong place at the wrong time and then flashbanged.". And why did he let out a vox that was making a hostile moves on the HoS first?

Approximate Date/Time: This happened between 11 pm-12 am, The 14th-15th of April.

[Jamini]

Sarah Scott was the acting captain at the time.

I have no idea why Jawdat was near security. He had no reason to be there.

[Guest]

As Head of Personnel, Finance Manager, and also the main conflict mediator, I believe the Head of Personnel SHOULD be present when unknown intruders from a rarely seen species come aboard and are being detained. However, the action of overthrowing the HoS at the moment of time seems unacceptable, but also could be played off as legitimate mutiny if he thought Sarah was truly in the wrong.. But yeah, that's probably not the case.

[Jamini]

I actually talked to Sue about the fight. Just for the record:

[10:08:50 AM] Sue: also

[10:08:59 AM] Sue: houssam was pissed because of me, it was all part of my master plan

[10:09:05 AM] Sue: vox can break cuffs here and leap stun people

[10:09:12 AM] Sue: so i broke my cuffs, hos tries to open processing to tase me

[10:09:15 AM] Sue: sidestep like a boss

[10:09:19 AM] Jamini: Oh? They have cuffbrek code?

[10:09:20 AM] Jamini: I didn't know that

[10:09:22 AM] Sue: she throws in a flashbang, houssam is right behind her

[10:09:26 AM] Jamini: I knew about the leap

[10:09:27 AM] Sue: i manage to throw it back at them

[10:09:29 AM] Sue: and stun both of them

[10:09:32 AM] Jamini: Yeah.

[10:09:33 AM] Jamini: Wel

[10:09:36 AM] Jamini: He was kinda dumb about that

[10:09:38 AM] Sue: so houssam is mad about that

[10:09:41 AM] Sue: fast forward

[10:09:44 AM] Sue: warden aims laser rifle at me

[10:09:47 AM] Sue: houssam is next to her

[10:09:52 AM] Sue: i know houssam wil eat the laser

[10:09:54 AM] Sue: i move, she shoots him

[10:09:55 AM] Sue: kek

Essentially, most of his reasons for arresting the HOS were due to an antagonist fighting... well fighting like a badass. Honestly, he probably shouldn't have been in security at the time if a vox was loose/breaking loose.

Not gonna comment further. I wasn't present except to hear Houssam depose her.

[Valkrae]

Just as a thing, Jawdat wanted to free the Vox. He told my Vox that personally, as he ran down the hallway, which there was then the sound of gunfire and flashbangs.

[Guest]

As Head of Personnel, Finance Manager, and also the main conflict mediator, I believe the Head of Personnel SHOULD be present when unknown intruders from a rarely seen species come aboard and are being detained. However, the action of overthrowing the HoS at the moment of time seems unacceptable, but also could be played off as legitimate mutiny if he thought Sarah was truly in the wrong.. But yeah, that's probably not the case.

 

They shouldn't be in a situation when they're eating lasers like truffles. Like, ever.

In fact, an issue had arisen like this where Jawdat had, not surprisingly, put themselves into an awful position and attempted to challenge a conflict that security themselves is one of the only departments equipped to handle a bombing, ransoming and gun-toting terrorist.

And then Jackboot got surprised that they got shot for it. Again.

[Frances]

Does a HoP overstepping their powers to free Vox constitute bad roleplay?

I have been tempted, in the past, to go against direct orders as a member of sec to help certain convicts I believed deserved leniency or were being unjustly charged (things like a nuke op giving themselves up out of fear but still facing full charges from NT, for example). I understand that these things obviously constitute a fault from an IC perspective, but should we expect heads to always uphold their duty to perfection, even during antag rounds?

[nbielinski]

I'm not going to get involved too much here but can I just note that this is a character who not only took over the station because, "Security was being bad" but also managed to free several armed intruders who had shot a miner and were stealing from the station. His actions also lead to the destruction of the atmospheric system, as well as the deaths of 2+ people. Its not that I expect perfection, I just hold it deep in my heart that if the enemy has a pistol to my neck, the heads aren't going to pull the hammer back and tell them to fire away.

[Guest Marlon Phoenix]

Ughhhh why didn't you make an incident report this would have been perfect for an incident report ughhhh now we have to watch this thread go to 9 pages of debate over SoP which doesn't even exist and what everyone personally thinks the HoP's job is ughhhhh

 

And then Jackboot got surprised that they got shot for it. Again.

 

Ugghghhghghhhhhghghhh

The HoP is the Human Resource Director, Finance Manager, and overseer of the departments in the sense that he ensures they are all running smoothly, are fully staffed, and basically has the task of coordinating with Heads and ensuring the station running as efficiently as it can. That's how I do it, and it's gotten no problems (And on the contrary medbay usually loves Houssam's manic "I WILL KEEP TRACK OF ALL THE SSD'S" because that's less paperwork for them to do) I have since my first day as a serious HoP walked into a department, poked around a bit while staying out of the way, and got a feel of the department before leaving with what I saw in mind for future decisions.

Now I will fight irl anyone that tells me that as HoP I don't belong in the security department. I have basic access to every department and I have every right to pop inside and give an eye out on what's going on and bringing SSD's to the dorms. There are zero directives against HoP's entering a department or even that you can tell them to leave, all of that is unspoken rules of thumb.

So I stroll into the brig after hearing rumours of Vox being detained, getting held excessively but also that they're being total butts. With unconfirmed rumours and the HoS being SSD for 10 minute stretches every 2, Houssam strolls into the brig to take stock. Sees a Vox in processing alone, sees Vox in isolation attempting to break out.

Houssam soothes the angry Vox in isolation with vague promises of being released (maybe he's not telling truth??? characters can lie????), and is successful in calming in down. The HoS is right below, and outside sighing once(?) is totes silent and doesn't ask Houssam to leave.

He strolls down just in time to have the door to processing opened, and I don't OOC notice at first (because it came out of nowhere from my perspective) but a flashbang is thrown. IIRC we did the help intent shuffle as I tried to flee after recognizing what happened, but the flashbang was thrown back at us and we got rekt, and the Vox got out of the room. Sarah and him firefight, Sarah is rekt. Houssam stands up, tases the Vox to the ground, then tries to grab Sarah and pull her into a safe place (processing) but she gets up so he just retreats himself into the room, and starts yelling "EVERYONE CALM DOWN JESUS CHRIST" but then the Warden fires a laser bolt point blank in his chest.

At this moment, the roleplay of escalation was justified. He'd been shot and flashbang'd by security whereas the Vox were the ones responding reasonably to his dialogue. So he grabs one, drags him to escape, and kicks him out the airlock. The HoS tries to arrest, Houssam counter-orders arrest, security officer sides with Houssam and arrests HoS. Houssam appoints sec HoS, orders him to dialogue with the last remaining Vox, and goes off to terminate Sarah "pending review" and sends off a fax requesting DO to come review the matter for judgement but then lel shuttle.

The new Head of Security, Victor, was able to negotiate with the last Vox into getting his items back (including a dead body of his crew) and leave. The ceasefire was only broken by one rogue Vox who returned, who would have gotten zero leniency because he ruined the entire cease fire and credibility of Houssam's little coup to free them. Huge dick move, but it was IC and he was an antag. Just because my character made a bad call with one antag (the other one left with zero issues) shouldn't get me a character complaint sheesh.

This was all RP'd and 1138's reference to me being bootytickled about being shot at is irrelevant because in that situation I complained about lack of any RP. I wasn't butthurt about really anything this round it was a blast.

Edited April 15, 2015 by Marlon Phoenix

[Frances]

I'm not going to get involved too much here but can I just note that this is a character who not only took over the station because, "Security was being bad" but also managed to free several armed intruders who had shot a miner and were stealing from the station. His actions also lead to the destruction of the atmospheric system, as well as the deaths of 2+ people. Its not that I expect perfection, I just hold it deep in my heart that if the enemy has a pistol to my neck, the heads aren't going to pull the hammer back and tell them to fire away.

What ended up happening as a result of this is pretty irrelevant OOCly. We should simply consider whether Jackboot releasing Vox was good or bad. The Vox's actions after that are entirely their own, and even if one of them were to decide to outright grief the server, it should not be held against Jackboot, because his calls were obviously made under the assumption that the Vox players would roleplay properly.

[Guest]

Reading what Jackboot said, I feel like his slight mutiny/coup on the Head of Security was justified based on his characters IC reactions. I'd be pretty pissed too if I had been shot and flashbanged, and I'd probably not want to work with the person that caused my injuries either. Keep in mind, HoP's are not loyalty implanted, and do not feel the need to act in NT's best interests.

Also, @1138 , Houssam was in the Brig, with detained criminals, his character wouldn't have suspected a gunfight to emerge, and he got caught in the crossfire, its not like he HoPcurity'd to the rescue with his E-GUN responding to a sec call.

[Guest Marlon Phoenix]

^Before anyone jumps on it, I used my e-pistol on stun to drop the Vox then retreated to what I thought was a safe area with and airlock and reinforced windows between me and it+the HoS, where the friendly fire incident occurred.

EDIT:

Just wanna commend everyone on sticking to tasers, otherwise this all woulda gone a complete 180.

Edited April 15, 2015 by Marlon Phoenix

[Guest]

So, the warden aimed a lethal weapon at a pacified Vox prisoner.

Well okay. I take back what I said then.

[K0NFL1QT]

I was Head of Security in that round but I was actually willing to let the matter go as an involved conflict between two players who both believe they were in the right. Seeing as someone else has opened the topic I'm going to present my view because I feel that Jackboot has misrepresented his position and attempted to turn it into a debate on a HoPs duty, and minimized his shockingly terrible conduct in this round. Allow me to lay the situation out from my perspective. As always, I will try to present it as factually accurate as memory allows and with minimal bias.

 

• A miner reports a strange ship on the asteroid. Chief Engineer wants to send a man to check it out, with security escort. Two Security officers are dispatched to investigate. Vox are discovered. Chief Engineer opts to elect Sarah as Acting Captain.
  
  Sarah asks the officers to essentially shoo the Vox off Nanotrasen property, but the officers disobey because they think it'd be better to invite them aboard for a cultural exchange study. Sarah disagrees, multiple times, and plans to have at least one of the officers demoted for their disobedience when they return.
• Somebody, I think it was a miner, is brought onto the station having been vox-harpooned through the chest and killed
  
  The officers, having realized that a member of the crew has been killed by these aliens, suddenly decide that yes it's okay to detain them. Tasers are applied and two Vox who were admittedly not violent up to that point are brought into processing. There's a brief moment of panic when the Warden strips off a Vox space suit, but it's quickly replaced. The Vox aren't even handcuffed, so that one of them who proclaims to be a doctor can check the others vitals and perform treatment for the brief exposure. The only thing that's taken off them are obvious weapons.
  
• What follows now is a lengthy private discussion between the Head of Security and the two Vox, essentially boiling down to 'Nanotrasen owns this station, this crew, the asteroid and all the things on it'. Sarah plans to let these two go right from the start because she knows they aren't personally responsible for the crew murder, she just wants them to acknowledge their claim of ownership and then leave.
  
  The Vox disagree. Eventually they decide to try and break free and two-vs-one attack Sarah in processing. They are unarmed and are non-lethally subdued as the fighting spread out into the main area of Security, but not without a certain amount of Vox-leap to prove how dangerous they can be even without weapons.
  
• Now Sarah separates them and is more stringent on removing their equipment, taking away their headsets, any vision equipment that might have prevented previous attempts at flashing and is not so keen to leave them with free movement. One is cuffed to a chair in processing and the other cuffed in solitary.
  
• There was a few minutes where Sarah checked up on the status of the Security crew after the attempted breakout, and as this is going on the Vox in processing has unbuckled themselves and broken free of their cuffs. They've proven themselves dangerous by attacking, and are now refusing to co-operate. Sarah wanted to continue her stern talking, but was not going to walk into a small room where that particular uncuffed vox would just leap on her. She opened the door to tase it. The Vox sidestepped and Sarah shut the door to prevent escape.
  
• Sarah notices the bolt lights of the solitary door are on, the door is sparking and the panel is screwdrivered open.
  
  This is where Jawdat wanders in. He goes straight up to the one in solitary to talk to them. Sarah doesn't ask him to leave because he does have a right, as HoP, to take a look around Security if he wants to. Sarah returns her attention to the vox in processing, picking up exactly where she left off a moment ago, attempting to subdue it so she can cuff it to a chair and continue interrogation. She primes a flashbang, opens the door and throws it. Jawdat has interjected himself into the action and placed himself right in the doorway, such that Jawdat and Sarah do a help-intent shuffle in the doorway and prevent the door being closed. End result is the vox throws the flashbang back and we both get flashbanged. The vox escapes, picking up up a taser I dropped. Jawdat tells the crew that Sarah threw a flashbang at his head.
  
• I retreated around the corner after taking a few taser shots, to recover and get another weapon. The Warden, who had decided they were going to carry an Energy Carbine, opens lethal fire on the vox, shooting both the vox and Jawdat in the corridor from within processing. Yes, undeniably wrong. This was completely unauthorized, unnecessary and uncalled for. From then on Jawdat holds Sarah responsible for the reckless fire of the Warden and tells the crew that she personally shot him, when I can say with total certainty that she did not and her weapons were always on stun. As far as I know, the Warden was never held personally responsible.
  
• This is the point where Jawdat decides he's going to completely take over Security affairs from under a Head of Security who had kept things in as much control as she could, and that he was going to completely disregard the fact that she was actually Acting Captain.

 

I get a little fuzzy on the exact sequence of events at this point. But essentially, Jawdat takes the vox out of processing and leads them to departures where they escape. Sarah captures another Vox at medbay, but Jawdat immediately takes that one out of Security. Sarah essentially doesn't stop him because she was planning to let them go anyway, but she orders a Security borg to arrest Jawdat for his conduct and the borg doesn't obey. What actually happens is a Janitorborg slips Sarah while she tries to leave, Jawdat arrests her while she's down, strips her rank and field-promotes some other officer who was standing right there. Sarah got 'Terminated', not demoted, straight out terminated for 'excessive force'. She was stripped of gear in a manner that's completely against Security protocol, that is to say, everything down to the jumpsuit. Headset, PDA, bag, ID, everything. You don't take headsets unless you have an immediate replacement, which I didn't get at all. You don't promote on a whim without paperwork. You don't become Acting Captain as HoP by wrongfully accusing, arresting and locking up the current Acting Captain.

What Jawdat did that was wrong, that Jackboot as a player knows is wrong and so should Jawdat the character if he was deemed fit for Head of Personnel duty;

• Undue interference in matters of another department.
• Complete disregard for Sarahs authority as voted Acting Captain.
  
• Acting with total contempt of arrest protocol, aswell as thoroughly neglecting proper promotion procedure.
  
• Blatant misrepresentation of events to garner sympathy among the crew and frame Sarah as out of control.

 

Now, why did it happen? I believe Jawdat inserted himself too much into Security matters at exactly the wrong moment. And by too much, I mean literally one step too far. Had he not tried to rush into processing at the exact moment Sarah was trying to subdue the occupant, there would have been no help-intent shuffle in the doorway and the breakout during which he is flashbanged and shot with a laser would not have happened. Literally, that one step took him from overseeing another department in the capacity that a HoP is right to do, to interference that severely hinders the department and causes a general calamity.

[Guest Marlon Phoenix]

Yes, that one step was the catalyst. If it hadn't happened, the plan was to discuss things with Sarah then pull out the SSD's. But because of those big event, and the fact Houssam places all successes and failures on a department on its Head (bad quartermasters drive Houssam insane because they embarrass him severely) caused his anger to lead him to the dark side in his actions, and he wanted the Vox gone, and Sarah held responsible for the failure of her department, in his eyes.

It's extraordinarily rare that Houssam goes this far.

[K0NFL1QT]

Yeah, I feel like this could have been avoided with a little more communication between us before hand, of which I am equally guilty. I didn't give Jawdat a full rundown of what I knew and what my intentions were when he joined, and I don't remember him asking before cat-rushing Sec, though that could be due to the fight that happened immediately before his arrival that I was busy with. Likewise Sarah was never given a chance to explain herself fairly.

[Doomberg]

Alright, so, we've had an explanation from either party. I don't see this issue as entirely black and white, more of something that should be noted in case further incidents of this sort occur and, if possible, treated as a learning experience.

While the argument of doing this as an incident report may be initially valid, we'd have to keep a Vox incursion canon, which is... less than optimal.

How do you want to proceed?

[Guest]

Alright, so, we've had an explanation from either party. I don't see this issue as entirely black and white, more of something that should be noted in case further incidents of this sort occur and, if possible, treated as a learning experience.

While the argument of doing this as an incident report may be initially valid, we'd have to keep a Vox incursion canon, which is... less than optimal.

How do you want to proceed?

 

Vox are a known species in our lore, they're known to be raiders but not much else is known, if any antag, Vox would be the easiest to keep a canon round of, its not unlikely that a raiding party would find the station at some point in time, if we want to deal with this in a IC manner, we totes could.

[Baka]

Seeing as this was an attempt to make the two communicate to explain actions and what lead up to that, and to do an investigation on the issue during a time where I was

a.) Very sleepy

and

b.) Very busy

I feel as if communication was done before hand and the lines were drawn, we wouldn't have a pow-wow about this.

Now, you feel as this would had made an incident report, but do keep in mind it had been tied to antagonists, something you do not report on because it is generally non-canon. I was also not playing at the time as I stated, as I was actually observing due to limited staff.

The other reason why I reported this too was that I generally as a rule hold Head of Staff to higher standards due to the fact they are whitelisted, and seeing a Head of Personnel arresting the Head of Security/Acting Captain based off of getting tazed made me question it.

Seeing they both answered, I have a clearer picture of what happened, and concur with Doomberg. I ask both parties that if they have any questions, comments, or concerns to please raise it up now.

[Hackie]

Going to be one of officers and pitch in. The reason we moved in to detain was because vox actually began stealing. Vox in the lore are very unexplored people, and seeing a friendly one is like finding a unicorn. In addition, they defended themselves by claiming it was a misfire because the miner attempted to chuck a rock at them. While yes, we can't expect everyone to read all of the wiki, but that's my defense.

[Guest Marlon Phoenix]

Is this resolved?

[Baka]

Regarding your application, yes, I feel the situation is resolved. The moral of the story is: Communication is key and Don't step in the line of fire. Doomberg is free to lock and archive it.

[Doomberg]

Locking and archiving as per request.