Staff Comlaint-Evandorf

[Alexanderself1]

BYOND Key: Alexanderself1
Staff BYOND Key: Evandorf
Game ID: cmM-cIXz
Reason for complaint: I was banned for

"Attempted to breach the bridge and approached command without any RP or words said between them. When found by security soon after began a fight with officers all without words said or RP provided. Given the extent of previous bans and warnings I will be reapplying the antag ban."

I'm open to conversation about it but I wasn't present for the ban. All I know is that its hard to RP with sec when they immediately open fire and demand you get on the ground. Once your arrested as a tator your done, and Command didn't even give me a chance to talk to them before they were gone. I was spotted by command before I managed to enter the main bridge room and when I did they were exiting through telecomms. I was going to hold them hostage then disappear before sec arrived after scanning the captains ID for access. I then went to kill Robert Strong and plant the evidence on him, but he turned out to be a tator as well so we ended up working together. I RP'd with med, I RP'd with Strong, I would of loved to of RP'd with command but it just didnt go that way. I had no chance to RP with sec because they found me, surrounded me, ordered me to lay down, and I can't just get arrested when Im trying to maintain a secret identity and not get caught so I tried to run. I got caught again later trying to recharge my shield belt and gunned down when I was trying to reach the merchant ship and add in a layer of RP with the fact their ship is technically not beisellite space and try to get some immunity to go to their station and leave the ship.
Evidence/logs/etc:
Additional remarks: Perhaps after your side is explained to me I will understand, but Sec didn't try to RP with me besides "get down", waiting two seconds, and then unloading into Strong while he stood still presumably typing or waiting for the situation to develop.

Edited March 12, 2023 by Alexanderself1

[Garnascus]

Looks like its @Evandorf's ban. Will need to hear from him first. 

[Evandorf]

The ban was applied after a ticket came in some time after the altercations with security and unfortunately you had already DC'ed at this point. I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt that sufficient time had passed between the fight and the time you disconnected but you also have a well documented history of logging if you are caught or about to be incapacitated as antag. I spoke with one of the officers and I spoke with Strong who gave me a description of the events. Security had been armed to deal with an intruder who tried to holdup the bridge and unfortunately for you and Strong they found you preparing in the maintenance tunnel near deck three security. I spoke with the Interim HoS at the time and they stated that nothing was said on your part and when they tried to speak with you you bolted and shocked the airlock, crushing one of them and then ran off the other direction. Security caught up with you later in the hall and downed you after you de-limbed one or more officers in the fight. At this point it sounded like security already knew of you, there had been escalation (and assumed RP), and I just needed to find where the RP took place but when I spoke with the XO who was present at the time you attempted to take the bridge I was told that no attempts at communication were made there either. I made more than a fair attempt to try and find someone that you interacted with but the response I got was always the same.

[Alexanderself1]

I believe I tried sign language in deck 3 mainly because I didn’t want to speak and reveal who I was, to my knowledge they thought it was the priest, but that was when I was with sec. When I went to the bridge they saw me while I was hacking the door, I took a step back, went back and hacked it again, and when I got in they were going through the comms door so I never got to catch up to them and thus just left with no access. I managed to find my way towards Strong who was in the recreational garden area growing ambrosia and got him to follow me into maint under chapel near the airlock. I was going to murder him and put the suit on him but last second he revealed he was a tator too so we worked together. I shocked myself with the door and that created a panic rp where me and Strong had to act like I didn’t hurt myself shocking a door with both the intrepid expedition that I stole medical supplies from and with medical, where I freaked out about surgery because of the chance they’d see my stuff and explained it away as me being scared of scalpels. If I had managed to take anyone hostage on the bridge I would of rp’d with them for a decent while before killing them or leaving with them, both of which result in sec asking me what I want and then me giving demands via the not-dead-yet hostage or with a note on the hostages body as I have done many times before. The only reason there wasn’t rp with sec is both 

A. Their rapid response time, it was kinda impressive how fast they were all on us and we couldn’t get out without killing someone or surrendering which, as stated above, is pretty much game over for tators 

B. If I did say something in sign language as I believe I tried to do, no one takes sign language as a language (sigh) and they didn’t notice. 
 

On another note, like the other day I was asking about doing some stuff to set up a trap for an unathi hos in Xenoarch that was fully intended to kill them, and the admins response was that because they are after me, it’s pretty much good to go. I understood that because if sec doesn’t have to do any rp at this point that should go both ways, but from my recent antag rounds it seems like even when sec is at the point where they can go “lay down” and if they don’t instantly get down they can open fire, the same thing doesn’t apply to antags.

[Evandorf]

From a moderation standpoint, what you intended to do, meant to do, would have done but for the circumstances doesn't factor into the equation. What matters is what actually happened and things going wrong does not remove the requirement for RP before escalation. Things going wrong will make your life more difficult as antag because security is operating from a place of authority and it is their job to enforce regulations. I don't expect you to immediately comply with security and give up when caught but at the bare minimum get out a pithy comment, make a speech, give a monologue, do something. Most sec mains will let you talk and make a scene out of it.

[Alexanderself1]

I was standing there, trying to think what to type when we were in the brig by the entrance and Strong got gunned down- Sec told us to get down, me and Robert did absolutely nothing besides stand there, I can’t speak for strong but presumably he was waiting for someone to say something that could elicit any rp or also thinking of something to say, when they started blasting him repeatedly. I didn’t even get back into maint until after he was downed because I was waiting for the door hacking timer, so in however much time that takes they told us to get down, then started blasting Strong with enough shots to down him. 
This isn’t aggressive, this is a genuine question, are there times where you want antags to stand there and get shot because they have to try to rp even if sec wastes 3 seconds saying get down before blasting? Why is it entirely on the antag to rp something when they are getting arrested and not sec asking questions like “why are you doing this?” Or “what do you want?” 
I want to follow your antag rules, I really like playing antag here, I just feel like there’s something I’m not understanding about the sec-antag interaction that happens every game I’ve seen. 
What escalation did sec do that permits them, ooc, to start blasting? Would a whisper to Strong of “here we go” been enough? When sec finds us planning in maints, pulls out there large array of weaponry, and demands we get down, was I supposed to start typing or stay still and wait for something to happen like Strong did and got gunned down? If I rest, they’ll sweep in and arrest us and we won’t even be able to hold anything while down, game over. If we try to talk, they start shooting, we spend 30 minutes in surgery and then the rest in brig, game over. From an OOC perspective, a game over isn’t that bad, but you want RP, so ic, to me and Strong, it wasn’t “if we lay down we get arrested, game over” it was “if we lay down, we die. Our lives will be over, and we will be forgotten. Our families will go on without us.”

[Evandorf]

The situation with Strong was ahelped in a separate ticket by a different mod but IIRC it was an issue where the intent was misunderstood. That behavior should not be assumed to be normal. Security will often react with equal force; if you talk they will talk, if you shoot they will shoot. I've played a lot of antag and a lot of security and there is a moment where you can feel the gears shifting from calm to chaos and vice versa. Both sides have to be willing to put trust in the other players and if there is a violation of that trust you should ahelp.

[Alexanderself1]

I’m beginning to lose track of things

so we have 

a. The command situation lacking RP, that was because the command situation barely got to exist, I was within talking range of them for mere moments. 

 

b. The third dec maints situation, this is debatably the only time that I could of rp’d with sec, but they did also approach me before I electrocuted bolted and crushed the dude with the door which was movement to arrest me and since one of them said to go in I assumed that meant they were about to take us both down

 

c. The time close to sec entrance where strong got gunned down with no rp from either side where strong and I stood there and one officer just shot strong down so I ran 

[Evandorf]

Yes, to my understanding you were seen on the bridge which initially alerted command and sec to your presence. Then you were seen in deck three sec maintenance where an attempt was made to communicate with you. An officer moved into the doorway to prevent it from closing and you interpreted this as a hostile move and shut the door on them. At this point security considered you fully hostile and gave chase. Then when they caught up to you and Strong near the lobby there was an issue with the way security engaged Strong, which was handled in a separate ticket, and eventually you engaged security in combat with the esword. Through all this I didn't speak with anyone who could confirm that you had made an attempt to communicate or provide RP in any meaningful way. People seeing you does not count as meaningful RP, especially in the context of what is required before lethal escalation. At some point you should have realized that the plans you made didn't pan out, the round had become a silent chase, and something should have changed.

I think you should also re-evaluate your stance that being caught equates to the end of your round. There is a lot of RP to be had after capture and even if that's not appealing, you can make preparations to have contingencies after arrest. The compressed matter implant is a great way to ensure you can break out if caught for instance, but more importantly this idea that the round is over when you are captured restricts you to a style of play that focuses only on your success. It doesn't let you trust the other players for fear that they will trample your gimmick and it makes you feel the need to immediately fall back on force and lethal threats when your plans break down. It doesn't allow you to branch out and try gimmicks that can be fun beyond you accomplishing your personal objectives which in the end defeats the point of being an antag which is to drive a story for the server at large.

[Alexanderself1]

8 hours ago, Evandorf said:

I think you should also re-evaluate your stance that being caught equates to the end of your round. There is a lot of RP to be had after capture and even if that's not appealing, you can make preparations to have contingencies after arrest. The compressed matter implant is a great way to ensure you can break out if caught for instance, but more importantly this idea that the round is over when you are captured restricts you to a style of play that focuses only on your success. It doesn't let you trust the other players for fear that they will trample your gimmick and it makes you feel the need to immediately fall back on force and lethal threats when your plans break down. It doesn't allow you to branch out and try gimmicks that can be fun beyond you accomplishing your personal objectives which in the end defeats the point of being an antag which is to drive a story for the server at large.

This is valid, tbh. I hate to be permabanned from antag but that’s a pretty correct statement. At first when I started here I obviously had the issue with dc’ing on capture but now I try to sit through the (admittedly extremely slow, boring, and fruitless) capture+ time in medical+ brig time and get rp in where I can, mostly when sec is charging me or when I’m sitting in the brig and there’s ANYONE nearby, but I can’t say I’ve ever made moves to ensure that even on capture I can escape the brig even if it would of went awry this time as well. 
 

With the expanded knowledge, is it possible to pull any logs from the round? I’ve slept now so any knowledge I had retained is long gone now.

 

i wanna say that I asked/told them to stay back/step back when we were in deck 3 maints, and then they approached anyway which from my pov was seen as “okay they’re coming in right now fully armed it’s about to go bad they do not want to talk this out even after I made the attempt to ask them to stay out there so we could talk” 

 

When I pulled out the esword after they wordlessly attacked Strong, which yes you’ve stated that was a bad move from them and there was a ticket, I couldn’t know that at that time, all I knew is that as far as security saw it they were good to gun us down so when security came chasing me and shooting I attacked back.

 

when I was caught near the merchants ship and died I was moving towards the merchant ship to add a layer of rp there since yeah this had mostly been a bloodbath up until this point and I was going to try to rp with sec there, where they can’t just shoot me directly in the face instantly. 
 

we have the power here of knowing, generally, what happened on every side from every angle. I didn’t have that power in game. I saw sec who made no attempt to open communications with me besides “get down on the ground” and I didn’t get any bargaining chips from the bridge in the form of an object or a hostage. I told sec to stay back and they went to move in anyway, causing me to retaliate. I watched Strong get gunned down and ran, where I was also getting shot at, so I defended myself. I ran to the merchants ship to charge my shield belt to get some words out aboard their ship before they started shooting at me again, and got caught and died, wordlessly but that was because I was in the process of running from lazer fire towards a ship that was a whole sideways n shape away from me. 

[Evandorf]

Yes, Garn or whoever eventually rules on this can pull the logs for the round. I believe the game ID was cmM-cIXz.

To be fair, the largest deciding factor in re-applying the ban was your previous note/warning/ban history. While the round may not have been the most egregious violation of the antag rules we have an escalation of punishment that we follow. I'll say now that I'm not averse to lifting the ban after some time has passed but in the interim I would encourage you to continue playing sec, shaping the interaction from the other side and growing more comfortable with staying in a confrontation without controlling it.

[Alexanderself1]

Just to confirm we are just waiting for a ruling on this right? 
I’m pretty accepting of the ban at this point since 

On 12/03/2023 at 11:35, Evandorf said:

I'll say now that I'm not averse to lifting the ban after some time has passed

Has been said since it’s at least a chance at being antag again eventually, 

[ReadThisNamePlz]

@Alexanderself1 I'll be taking this. 

Do you want to keep this open, and let me rule on it - or do you want to close it and make a ban appeal? 

[Alexanderself1]

My mind is going to be consumed by the Dionae lore I’m shoving down my esophagus, this can be closed. My return to the antags will come another day 

[ReadThisNamePlz]

17 hours ago, Alexanderself1 said:

My mind is going to be consumed by the Dionae lore I’m shoving down my esophagus, this can be closed. My return to the antags will come another day 

ok