Staff Complaint MattAtlas

[LordPwner]

BYOND Key: LordPwner \ FatherBirdie (Discord)
Staff BYOND Key: mattatlas \ mattatlas (Discord)
Game ID: N/A
Reason for complaint: 

Being Community Banned by MattAtlas. I received this ban without notice, conversation, or explanation at 7pm PST Case ID:279. The reason being 'Gross roleplay in apartment channels and on server. Community ban.' Now I want to start by saying if this concern had been brought to my attention of 'Hey whats going on here' or an ask for clarification I would have provided, because I believe the scene[s] in question are being misunderstood and used without their full context and also my own writing errors/lack-of(or less than normal) proof-reading adding to this problem. It is not uncommon to see me rapidly edit my posts again and again as to get the correct meaning across. I attempted to reach out to matt almost instantly- just wanted to know the why to it, but I was unable too, because I was blocked. I then had to turn to @ReadThisNamePlz for explanation/reasoning. 

From what I was provided I don't see the issue, otherwise I wouldn't have done the RP in the first place. I am sorry if my actions/text could be taken this way- I honestly try to RP Marcus as someone who just tries to find people and make friends. And this happens with many characters. Thank you for your consideration and I apologize for any of my behavior that actually made anyone uncomfortable and bothered them, that was never my intention.

Evidence/logs/etc:

https://imgur.com/a/Q7DSZSZ

Additional remarks:

I appreciate you taking the time to read this complaint, thank you!

[ReadThisNamePlz]

As requested by @LordPwner

Below are the main screenshots that have been discussed regarding your ban. 

Image One - 

Spoiler

Image Two
 

Spoiler

Image Three - 
 

Spoiler

Image Four - 
 

Spoiler

Essentially, this is seen as slave - master RP. That is all that I have to share, as requested.

[LordPwner]

7 minutes ago, ReadThisNamePlz said:

Below are the main screenshots that have been discussed regarding your ban. 

I appreciate it Avery, I would like clarification if this is the staff team's greatest concerns on this matter. 

Secondly, if at all possible I would like access to the logs of the channel, if it hasn't been deleted yet, I truly believe a lot of the context around these post has been lost by snipping in this manner.

I would also like to note that I am currently at work, and so a more proper response will be written soon. Thank you for your patience and understanding.

[MattAtlas]

Hi. In regards to what you said to Avery, I didn't get any time to "prepare" anything while this complaint was open because I fundamentally don't have anything to prepare - the ban stands on its own with just the screenshots I have provided, and I didn't think there was any need to even reply to you or ATG.

On 05/09/2023 at 04:42, LordPwner said:

I attempted to reach out to matt almost instantly- just wanted to know the why to it, but I was unable too, because I was blocked. I then had to turn to @ReadThisNamePlz for explanation/reasoning. 

I blocked you because it would have been pointless to get into a back-and-forth of  "You did this" "no I didn't it's a misunderstanding" "Yes you did" at what was 4 AM at the time. A staff complaint is a lot more productive for both of us.

 

Onto what you actually did - you try to tell me that you just "roleplay Marcus as someone who tries to find people and make friends", but this is either a warped perception of what you are actually doing, or you are lying to me. You yourself know that your character is a womanizer -

- as this screenshot points out pretty blatantly. No character that isn't a womanizer makes this kind of joke, and the context here doesn't change the reading of "We could've talked for hours about all the beautiful women". That aside, the history of your character is blatantly known to almost everyone that knows your character. It's more than an open secret that your character tried cheating on their spouse (which I should add is ten years younger than Marcus and is also his subordinate!), not once but more than once. This defence of Marcus' behaviour doesn't hold up, and reads more like something you'd say to defend yourself while assuming that staff aren't familiar with your character.

All of this gives a very different tinge to what you actually did in that apartment channel. Your defence is essentially trying to tell me that we took things the wrong way, or that there was "context" that would make them innocuous. Before I give you the logs, I would like to know from you personally exactly what kind of context would make a sentence such as "I'm going to put you in your place, girl" or giving someone who is telling you to "put them back to where [they] once were as a servant" the last name of your character's birthplace that they have a claim to, an innocuous sentence. There's a limit to how much we can believe that something is being misspelled or that there's a language barrier or that there was some sort of writing error - that limit was breached the moment this roleplay kept going on and on and on in public for everyone to see. Once is an incident, twice is unlucky, three times is intentional.

18 hours ago, LordPwner said:

I would like clarification if this is the staff team's greatest concerns on this matter. 

You were banned for exactly what your ban reason says - what you did in that channel, summed with your character's overall behaviour.

[ATGiltspire]

27 minutes ago, MattAtlas said:

 

All of this gives a very different tinge to what you actually did in that apartment channel. Your defence is essentially trying to tell me that we took things the wrong way, or that there was "context" that would make them innocuous. Before I give you the logs, I would like to know from you personally exactly what kind of context would make a sentence such as "I'm going to put you in your place, girl" or giving someone who is telling you to "put them back to where [they] once were as a servant" the last name of your character's birthplace that they have a claim to, an innocuous sentence. There's a limit to how much we can believe that something is being misspelled or that there's a language barrier or that there was some sort of writing error - that limit was breached the moment this roleplay kept going on and on and on in public for everyone to see. Once is an incident, twice is unlucky, three times is intentional.

 

Hi, there. Since you did not add anything onto my complaint, I felt like that was an invite to respond to your points on this side. I will say, in response to the context, that immediately before he said about putting Metella in her place, she, an untrained duelist, just insinuated that she could defeat him in a duel. Her bragging would fit perfectly with the phrase "put someone in his/her place", where the use (from what I understand) is to show someone that their opinion of themselves outstrips their ability, which any experienced duelist would do to someone who had no formal training.

As for the last name of the city, toponymic surnames were done in aristocratic countries in Europe, and so giving someone the surname of the capital would show that the person had status in the city, which, as a sworn vassal of Marcus Zhao, Metella would have. 

In addition, the cheating thing had been retconned, but I'm afraid I do not know more than that.

I hope this helps clear up a few misunderstandings, and that we can work towards an amicable outcome for everyone.

[LordPwner]

Apologies for the delay.

I'll start with the rule that I believe is being applied against me 

'ERP, also known as Erotic RolePlay, is not allowed on the server. While displays of romantic affection and romantic scenes are acceptable, scenes of a clearly sexual intent will be broken up. (Again, use common sense for this. Sexual tension up to a point is acceptable - sexual acts in themselves are not.)' 

Breaking up a non-erotic scene by a full community-ban is heavy-handed at best, when any communication would have corrected this. I don't have the cleanest history, but I do have a history of not slipping after being corrected. I do believe at worst, this should have been a ban from the relay if it's believed I misused the space. I, like everyone else here, am here to have an enjoyable time with other roleplayers in the universe that has been painstaking crafted with any number of differing characters. I do not have a history of OOCly or ICly of being disingenuous and of apologizing when I'm informed I wronged someone, staff punishment or not. Worst case, if we decide to take these words in a sexual context. Following the server's ERP rule, It is still within said rule. Nothing was done, nothing "truly erotic" was written.

42 minutes ago, MattAtlas said:

I didn't think there was any need to even reply to you or ATG.

Permanent Ban: Permanent bans are issued in two general cases. First, to force communication with staff regarding an issue which was left unresolved, usually due to the player logging out mid-discussion. Second, as a final attempt to curb a player's behaviour, following warnings and temporary bans.

I haven't been warned/banned for this behavior. If it's as problematic as you claim, why did staff not reach out to me to attempt to halt this behavior? Why did people watching the scene play out not use the Ahelp system? And/or why have people either ghost or also in scenes with me (staff or otherwise) not attempt to ahelp/correct this?

 

I do think Gilt actually hits what I was going to mention in response to this.

57 minutes ago, MattAtlas said:

Before I give you the logs, I would like to know from you personally exactly what kind of context would make a sentence such as "I'm going to put you in your place, girl" or giving someone who is telling you to "put them back to where [they] once were as a servant" the last name of your character's birthplace that they have a claim to, an innocuous sentence.

 

[lilahnovi]

Hi, since I played Marcus's SO and for some reason she was brought up, I would like to add in on this a bit.

Cheating thing was retconned, since all parties involved had a conversation and we didn't like the potential outcome for our stories. I would really, really like it if something involving my character was not used as "evidence." The reason why Lisette left was because I just don't have the motivation to play her currently, so we worked out something. Even though it didn't happen, cheating is a thing that happens. People do it. They are flawed. This can make stories interesting. I was totally willing to go with it, as long as the other parties were cool with the consequences. They weren't, so we drew back on it.

I personally see no issue with the age gap - they talked about it. Age gaps happen. Sometimes you fall in love. That's just how life goes. My parents and grandparents have an age gap, my husband and I have one too. Mature adults can work these things out. However, for the record, he was pursuing a woman much older than him before he and Lisette met, so it's not as if it's a thing for him. In fact, he was nervous because Lisette was younger, but she reassured him.

They also got together when they were both bridge crew, and she was not his subordinate at the time. The characters talked about it like adults and worked out how they would navigate it when he was brought up to XO.

Since my character is not involved in this in any reasonable sense, I would appreciate it not being used. It's not really fair to include it. I keep my rps to my private server because I hate losing logs and I hate having people watch me while I'm trying to write prose.

[MattAtlas]

5 minutes ago, LordPwner said:

I haven't been warned/banned for this behavior.

It doesn't matter - permanent bans are also handed out when the offense is heavy enough, and in this case it was. That's the same reason why I didn't reach out to you to contact you, to me this would've ended up as a permaban either way. More on this below.

7 minutes ago, LordPwner said:

Why did people watching the scene play out not use the Ahelp system?

People not ahelping doesn't justify what you did.

7 minutes ago, LordPwner said:

Following the server's ERP rule, It is still within said rule. Nothing was done, nothing "truly erotic" was written.

I don't agree. This is a difference in interpretation that the headmins will have to resolve.

8 minutes ago, LordPwner said:

I do have a history of not slipping after being corrected. [...] I do not have a history of OOCly or ICly of being disingenuous and of apologizing when I'm informed I wronged someone, staff punishment or not.

You have 31 notes and 9 warnings: you were in fact extremely lucky to not be banned yet, but that's just what established community member privilege does to someone. What this makes me wonder is how many warnings and notes you think you should have before being ejected from a community. And while we're at it, you do actually have a history of playing fast-and-loose with sexual themes - the complaint on you and Dekser by Goolies comes to mind, or when I warned you for making red light districts part of your vampire gimmick.

 

1 hour ago, ATGiltspire said:

As for the last name of the city, toponymic surnames were done in aristocratic countries in Europe, and so giving someone the surname of the capital would show that the person had status in the city, which, as a sworn vassal of Marcus Zhao, Metella would have. 

This is a reach that I personally don't believe, summed with everything else that was said.

1 hour ago, ATGiltspire said:

In addition, the cheating thing had been retconned

This doesn't matter when I used it to establish a pattern of behaviour. The mere fact that it happened is what matters here.

 

1 minute ago, lilahnovi said:

Hi, since I played Marcus's SO and for some reason she was brought up, I would like to add in on this a bit.

Cheating thing was retconned, since all parties involved had a conversation and we didn't like the potential outcome for our stories. I would really, really like it if something involving my character was not used as "evidence." The reason why Lisette left was because I just don't have the motivation to play her currently, so we worked out something. Even though it didn't happen, cheating is a thing that happens. People do it. They are flawed. This can make stories interesting. I was totally willing to go with it, as long as the other parties were cool with the consequences. They weren't, so we drew back on it.

I personally see no issue with the age gap - they talked about it. Age gaps happen. Sometimes you fall in love. That's just how life goes. My parents and grandparents have an age gap, my husband and I have one too. Mature adults can work these things out. However, for the record, he was pursuing a woman much older than him before he and Lisette met, so it's not as if it's a thing for him. In fact, he was nervous because Lisette was younger, but she reassured him.

They also got together when they were both bridge crew, and she was not his subordinate at the time. The characters talked about it like adults and worked out how they would navigate it when he was brought up to XO.

Since my character is not involved in this in any reasonable sense, I would appreciate it not being used. It's not really fair to include it. I keep my rps to my private server because I hate losing logs and I hate having people watch me while I'm trying to write prose.

When you do something that ends up becoming public one way or the other, and then it ends up coming under staff review because one of the parties involved did something bad wherein your actions are relevant for the staff member's judgement, you can't expect it to stay private, or at the very least you should expect staff to mention it in the relevant complaint that might pop up. This is why the people involved should have made a confidential complaint (an option they didn't pick, for some reason).

I didn't call into question your character's actions nor did I call you out in particular. I didn't say the age gap itself was a problem nor did I mention the cheating as the problem - if you read the ban reason none of these things were mentioned as problems, because if they were you would have received punishment too, and LordPwner would've been banned months ago. They were only mentioned to point out a pretty blatant lie in the original post.

You'll also find that this is why I was reluctant to comment on this complaint at all, and I only did it when I was told that LordPwner would've liked to present a defense.

[ATGiltspire]

9 minutes ago, MattAtlas said:

This is a reach that I personally don't believe, summed with everything else that was said.

I wasn't saying this as a reach. Birdie and I had discussed Metella getting a new name, and that had been brought up, where she would have societal standing in Zhao's territory.


Also, 

12 minutes ago, MattAtlas said:

(an option they didn't pick, for some reason)

barely seems appropriate, and almost feels passive-aggressive. I don't know how many warnings or notes I have, I don't even know how to check that, but I think it may be clear that I don't exactly know what I'm doing in terms of disciplinary action. Since I can't (obviously) see any confidential complaints, I didn't know if I would have any chance to reply, or if my post would just vanish from my sight and I wouldn't hear anything for a month, given that, as you said, you were reluctant to comment on the complaint.

 

I do hope that this is resolved soon. Thank you for your time, please let me know if you have any additional questions.

[MattAtlas]

8 minutes ago, ATGiltspire said:

barely seems appropriate, and almost feels passive-aggressive.

If it came off that way then I'm sorry because I was more trying to convey my surprise at these complaints being made publicly visible rather than confidential.

[LordPwner]

30 minutes ago, MattAtlas said:

You have 31 notes and 9 warnings: you were in fact extremely lucky to not be banned yet, but that's just what established community member privilege does to someone. What this makes me wonder is how many warnings and notes you think you should have before being ejected from a community. And while we're at it, you do actually have a history of playing fast-and-loose with sexual themes - the complaint on you and Dekser by Goolies comes to mind, or when I warned you for making red light districts part of your vampire gimmick.

Yes, some of these are as silly as Alb giving me a .01 minute ban for 'bant', renamed items with character name in it, or "Their medical intern/legion nerd Zane Miller has been cleared for action. Godspeed weekend warrior!" Even then, most of them are pre-2019, the warning of the Vamp gimmick was because the player I was trying to get blood from mentioned it, and I thought it would be acceptable to roll with it as a defense. I did try to explain this in the Ahelp and have since made sure to not repeat this.

The most recent note in the past year was going afk as a physician watching sensors.

And then the warning of Read for the complaint. Was through my actions/wording/phrasing could/did paint Goolies in a negative light where I should not have.

I've never, even on my worst days, have wanted to bring harm to this community. I do love playing here and have worked hard to make sure I was in within the rules and believable RP at all times after pushing past my ancient mistakes and shortcomings.

 

I was not sure the way to create a confidential complaint, and even asked that it be moved to such, but was informed by @ReadThisNamePlz 

"Its being discussed
You already made the complaint public

So it's kinda pointless to make it private now"

14 minutes ago, MattAtlas said:

I was more trying to convey my surprise at these complaints being made publicly visible rather than confidential.

[MattAtlas]

I have nothing else to really add. I get what you are saying.

[ReadThisNamePlz]

Quote

"Its being discussed
You already made the complaint public

So it's kinda pointless to make it private now"

This was because Alberyk said this in the Admin chat. 
But yeah, it is too late for this to be a private thread. 

[lilahnovi]

1 hour ago, MattAtlas said:

When you do something that ends up becoming public one way or the other, and then it ends up coming under staff review because one of the parties involved did something bad wherein your actions are relevant for the staff member's judgement, you can't expect it to stay private, or at the very least you should expect staff to mention it in the relevant complaint that might pop up. This is why the people involved should have made a confidential complaint (an option they didn't pick, for some reason).

I didn't call into question your character's actions nor did I call you out in particular. I didn't say the age gap itself was a problem nor did I mention the cheating as the problem - if you read the ban reason none of these things were mentioned as problems, because if they were you would have received punishment too, and LordPwner would've been banned months ago. They were only mentioned to point out a pretty blatant lie in the original post.

You'll also find that this is why I was reluctant to comment on this complaint at all, and I only did it when I was told that LordPwner would've liked to present a defense.

The thing here is, I do not believe my character's existence, my actions, and any story stuff involving Lisette honestly has any relevancy to the judgement or consideration whatsoever. You did imply that it was a problem, with how you worded it. Your response only makes it worse that you mentioned it, because what I just said refuted anything about it 'being weird/gross/contributing to something bannable.' I think it's just an attempt to make someone OOCly look bad for IC actions without actual knowledge of any character narrative with nuance. I don't care if it's private or not, that makes no difference to me. I post to set the record straight on what I view as ad hominem and red herring, because it was presented was a supposed bit of proof for Marcus being 'gross' or Birdie being a 'liar' and because it has nothing to do with the interaction between Metella and Marcus.

So, I'll explain in a really concise way, to help summarize my former post (and why this sentence is misleading and NOT an actual problem, and should not be included in 'proof of his overall character') just in case it wasn't clear the first time:

Quote

"It's more than an open secret that your character tried cheating on their spouse (which I should add is ten years younger than Marcus and is also his subordinate!)"

Tried cheating: Cheating was retconned but for the sake of clarity - he kissed one person who was flirting with him after the both of them had drinks (the player of the person kissed knew that Marcus was involved with someone - it was an attempt to whip up some drama). The other circumstance involved someone who was pursuing him. He never acted on that one, and was in fact quite stressed about it in private interaction. We rp'd that out. I even watched a number of those rounds. We talked about everything OOCly as a potential storyline and the way he reacts to things, since Marcus is a character with a weakness for people he finds attractive and sometimes gets himself in tangles. Even if he did it, it would just be a story beat of a character flaw, not proof of 'gross roleplay.' It's an 'open secret' because he's a little bit of a mess.

Ten years: Yeah. They talked about it and worked it out like adults. Lisette is not a child - she is a grown woman that can make her own decisions. I honestly find it a little gross, the implication that a 25 year old woman can't make her own relationship choices. As a 32 year old woman in real life, I actually find this mindset incredibly messed up and implies she can't think for herself.

His subordinate: They originally began dating when they were both bridge crew, and on the same level of authority. They spoke extensively about the move up to XO, worked out how they would navigate it, and he asked Lisette if it would be okay with her that he was getting a promotion. She was fine with this, and stated they should do their best to stay professional and cordial. Again. They're adults.


The reason I point all this out is for the staff considering judgement, because it's not relevant. It only seemed like the purpose was to take a passive-aggressive swipe, and I don't appreciate it.

(And, I just want to add this: A person can be a philanderer, and want to get to know people and make friends. Those things are not mutually exclusive, nor is it a 'lie.' I literally dated a guy like this in real life - tried to be good friends with everyone, but would always run into issues when he inevitably developed feelings for some of them - causing many huge blowups and constant relationship strife.) 

[Garnascus]

Sorry lordpwner but given your history the ban is going to stand. The conduct you engaged in was absolutely inappropriate. You will need to appeal the ban at your leisure. 

[LordPwner]

Of course, thank you deeply for this consideration. I'll spend my time away educating myself to make sure this conduct is not repeated by myself or my character. To appeal when I believe I am ready to be a better player and member of Aurora.

It is incredibly appreciated.