Staff Complaint - MattAtlas

[dessysalta]

BYOND Key: Dessysalta
Staff BYOND Key: MattAtlas
Game ID: N/A
Reason for complaint: I was told that Kira Vasquez, my HOS, can't wear the SSMD flagpatch she's been wearing for over a year and a half total, and as a HOS for 5 months, because it's "anti-corporate." I don't agree with or understand this ruling because not only did I have no way of knowing this (see: the loadout doesn't restrict it from HOS), but this would imply that the SCC knowingly and charitably promoted an SSMD affiliate and Sol patriot into a command position.

It's no secret that Kira is a Solarian-aligned individual and moreover that she's ex-SSMD. She has fought and nearly died countless times for the Conglomerate, in particular she lost an actual leg to the Exclusionists attack and was given enough pay/had enough stockpiled to purchase a vatgrown limb. My SSMD custom item application not withstanding (I get that it's military-adjacent and understand that it's overkill to the Conglomerate), this doesn't make any sense. I think:

• Sol actively invaded Biesel, and their diplomats are banned from making appearances on the Horizon, plus the animal that is Solarian corporate authority, but their flags and their patches are fine. The SSMD "protected" former Solarian territory and were just as anti-corporate as the rest of Sol. While they engaged Biesellite ships, to these ends I don't think it's unreasonable for a flagpatch of all things to be worn especially where loyalty is not a question; moreover, the SSMD is almost a direct extension of Sol and the SCC is meant to be somewhat politically neutral (for instance, helping Konyang, Moghes, really any place in the Spur that asks, allowing consuls of the DPRA, a nation-state headed by military juntas who execute non-Tajarans openly, allowing Trinarist priests on board, the list goes on) and the idea of banning a symbol that represents a legitimate part of another country's government is compromising that neutrality on a much greater scale (made worse and more bizarre by the fact that it's only command that can't wear it). Biesel is not at war with the Sol Alliance or the SSMD (what is now the SSRM) and has little precedent compared to more radical groups like the League and Front; Szalai was a Solarian officer acting in accordance with the wishes of her government (mostly) and as a somewhat legitimate representative of it. The League and Front were terrorist organizations aiming to overthrow their government. The SCC has members formerly based in Solarian space or that have interests there, Idris and Silversun for example. Restricting the rights of Solarians working for the SCC would endanger those interests especially because the Solarians want to go after them anyways. As long as the symbols don't conflict with their work then why would it be a problem in the first place?
• Grupo Amapola has a peaked officer cap for the HOS in the loadout despite this particular group having a large amount of, and being founded by Samaritans, widely considered terrorists not only for resisting Biesel, but corporate influence in general (see: the Peacekeeper Mandate and the SCC's goods embargo, not to mention how Mictlan handles corpos generally speaking).

If both of these things are allowed (Sol flag/patches and Amapola caps), why isn't an SSMD flagpatch allowed to be worn by a trusted and well-known individual? If Kira was suitable for promotion there should be no reason why she can't display a symbol of her military service that she takes pride in, considering that even if the entity it represents has done "anti-corporate" things it's not being used as an anti-corporate symbol in this context.

Solarian patriot ex-military captains and bridge crewmen exist. Ex-Himeans don't have to despise every inch of Himeo to have renounced their citizenship (mine did it because she likes money). I mean, DPRA individuals can be approved to be heads of staff, even if subject to background checks and being fired or charged if they're connected to any radicals—but the SSMD isn't radical in the way that, say, the League is or Sol isn't. The ticket below mentions Himeo and I've mentioned it here, but the SSMD is and was nowhere near the scale of an entire anti-corporate planet I'd argue.

It's inconsistent and betrays the idea of complex characters who can be trusted officials without giving up everything they ever held dear that even slightly conflicts with the SCC's principles. 

Evidence/logs/etc: Ticket contents:

Spoiler

Additional remarks: Even if this gets dismissed or is ruled against me, would you settle for NSRM/SSRM flagpatches on account of flags for those two entities being in the works last I checked human lore's channel?

Edited June 18 by dessysalta
minor clarification + talking abt himeo

[Arrow768]

3 hours ago, dessysalta said:

was told that Kira Vasquez, my HOS, can't wear the SSMD flagpatch she's been wearing for over a year and a half total, and as a HOS for 5 months, because it's "anti-corporate." I don't agree with or understand this ruling because not only did I have no way of knowing this (see: the loadout doesn't restrict it from HOS), but this would imply that the SCC knowingly and charitably promoted an SSMD affiliate and Sol patriot into a command position.

The loadout is not a authoritative resource of what is/isn’t allowed in the game.

Just because something is available in/ can be done with the loadout doesn’t mean it’s allowed. (I.e. we had a HoS who created a centcom security ID card for himself. Obviously that was shut down as soon as it was discovered)

The same thing applies to the ready screen. Just because you can click “ready up” on a hos character and could do so for a while does not mean that character has been created in accordance with the rules.

Our enforcement will in almost all cases be retroactive: if a mod/min notices or is informed of something they will act on it. To proactively enforce just the two things you have mentioned would require a manual approval process of every character and their loadout items (as well as any changes to that). And that is clearly not practical to do.

In addition we do not allow issues to continue once they come to our attention, just because they have been going on for a while now. (Otherwise someone could write into their characters records that they are the owner of the SCC and it would become canon lore at some point if noone notices it)

I am not handling this complaint (for now). I am just correcting some incorrect assumptions that are part of this complaint.

[dessysalta]

2 hours ago, Arrow768 said:

To proactively enforce just the two things you have mentioned would require a manual approval process of every character and their loadout items (as well as any changes to that).

It would be as simple as adding the restrictions present on security uniforms to wildlands flagpatches. In regards to an SSMD affiliate being promoted, I didn't mention it in the post (because she's unavailable), but I asked Read specifically if I could make Kira a HOS after I played her for a year straight with next to no breaks. She said yes, followed up with me after the fact to say yes again, and that was the end of it.

Loadout items that can be used openly by anyone, or even just anyone part of a specific faction, should be very clear in telling you who is and isn't allowed to use it if there happens to be actual IC justification for such a thing, which is why role restricted items exist. I bring up again that I had no way of knowing this was a no-go back when Kira took the flagpatch as a warden (and prior to the PR implementing them, I used a custom flagpatch), and with the existence of the above examples of otherwise "hostile" groups' paraphernalia and members being allowed into command, I submit that it's unreasonable to limit this one thing when there are far more egregious cases ICly and OOCly (and how odd it is to not limit wardens, who have a lot of mechanical overlap with the HOS role, but that's neither here nor there).

If the loadout item isn't allowed to be used by certain roles or demographics, it should be reflected in code like every other restricted item (see: Imperial outfits, faction gear, augments) or else you run the risk of cases like this where people like me are completely blindsided.

Edited June 18 by dessysalta
minor spelling mistake.......

[CampinKiller]

I will be handling this with @Owen

[Arrow768]

7 hours ago, dessysalta said:

If the loadout item isn't allowed to be used by certain roles or demographics, it should be reflected in code like every other restricted item

You are free to PR it if you want. Our Codebase is opensource so people can contribute their ideas.

Even then, common sense is still required, as you can easily use the name/description changer of a vaguely related item to customise it to your liking and thereby circumventing established restrictions.

To reiterate what I wrote above: the loadout in its current state can’t be a mechanically restricted authoritative source on when you can use a specific item (at least as long as we permit name/description changes).

And that is not a problem, as you will be informed that a specific item is inappropriate for a specific character by the mods/min when it is noticed. I would be very surprised if any interaction with the mod/min team about a character-inappropriate item results in anything more than a talking-to/note (unless someone is actively trying to circumvent restrictions)

I do agree that the loadout should provide some indication that a specific item is not for use by everyone. If you would like that feature you are free to create a PR for it.

[CampinKiller]

After discussing this with Owen, this is what we've decided:

As Arrow said, the length of time this has been a thing is not an issue. We are not omniscient and can only handle issues as we notice them, or they are brought to our attention. This has been true for as long as the server's existed: I was once warned for taking a pistol out of the armory at round start and the argument that I had been doing so for months prior didn't hold any weight for the same reasoning.

On 17/06/2024 at 20:35, dessysalta said:

I don't agree with or understand this ruling because not only did I have no way of knowing this (see: the loadout doesn't restrict it from HOS), but this would imply that the SCC knowingly and charitably promoted an SSMD affiliate and Sol patriot into a command position.

The SCC has no issue in promoting people who have the ability and record to command positions, just look at the number of Solarian heads of staff that are patriots or otherwise supportive of Sol. The issue here is not being a Solarian "patriot" or even having a previous affiliation with the SSMD. It is that you are openly displaying continued affiliation and support of a faction that quite literally raided and attacked Biesel ships and territory, in the name of being anti-corporate. The SCC would not permit a head of staff to do that, they have higher standards for their command staff. This is something we checked with lore team management (since they oversee megacorp lore), and was confirmed. Someone wearing a flagpatch of, say, Sol, Himeo, etc. is different because generally they are not in command staff, and those that do wear them are wearing a nation's or planet's flag as opposed to a group that is outright anti-corporate. The other example you cited, Grupo Amapola, is under the PMCG, so they have reason to be wearing their hats as an SCC member corporation.

We're not asking you to give up your character's principles or anything of the sort, at the end of the day you were told that the SCC would not allow an anti-corporate patch to be worn by a head of staff on their flagship. The outward display of anti-corporate sentiment is the issue. Your character can be patriotic, proud of her service, even lean anti-corporate, and none of that has anything to do with a flagpatch.

In summary, we don't see any issue with what matt decided here. As to your question about the reconstruction mandates, that's something I'll discuss with human lore and lore team management, but I would advise you to not wear one without having it clarified first, if they are added in the future.

If there's nothing else, this will be locked in 24 hours.

[dessysalta]

4 minutes ago, CampinKiller said:

Someone wearing a flagpatch of, say, Sol, Himeo, etc. is different because generally they are not in command staff, and those that do wear them are wearing a nation's or planet's flag as opposed to a group that is outright anti-corporate.

Sol and Himeo are openly anti-corporate entities, the former of the two having literally invaded Biesel and shot and killed people. The SSMD seized corporate assets (although it doesn't specify how they did) and protected "their land" from Biesel considering the space used to be owned by Sol. I'd wager to say that Sol has done a lot more anti-corporate and anti-Biesel stuff than the SSMD alone, but here isn't the place to argue.

7 minutes ago, CampinKiller said:

Grupo Amapola, is under the PMCG, so they have reason to be wearing their hats as an SCC member corporation.

The Wildlands Squadron is also under the PMCG, with flagpatches of the former successor states supplied for the four groups you can openly claim to be a former member of. If this isn't good enough, would an Amapola HOS be allowed to wear anything denoting their former affiliation to the Samaritans? If not, then I don't have anything else but to wait for the ruling on the NSRM/SSRM stuff.

[MattAtlas]

I originally didn't want to reply to your complaint, but your bad faith against me has now become abundantly clear thanks to your latest thread, which is as direct and open of an attack against me as you could make. I'm not going to sit by and let you call me both incompetent and in need of replacement. You said you were "brooding" in that thread - I think you should apologize for the way you've gone about trying to get what is essentially nothing more than a personal vendetta.

On 18/06/2024 at 03:35, dessysalta said:

I don't agree with or understand this ruling because not only did I have no way of knowing this (see: the loadout doesn't restrict it from HOS), but this would imply that the SCC knowingly and charitably promoted an SSMD affiliate and Sol patriot into a command position.

This is on you, and not on us. The entire application process and the expectations clearly outline that you need to know the lore, and what an acceptable character is. It's up to you to make a reasonable character. We give you a ton of freedom to do so, we don't even double-check people's characters most of the time and we let them make whatever they want within the confines of the rules.

You say here that "the SCC knowingly and charitably promoted an SSMD affiliate and Sol patriot into a command position". No, you made a character that is against the rules, and you are going to have to remove (read: retcon) the parts that break the rules.

On 18/06/2024 at 03:35, dessysalta said:

My SSMD custom item application not withstanding (I get that it's military-adjacent and understand that it's overkill to the Conglomerate), this doesn't make any sense

Your SSMD flag was denied. You were told very clearly at that time: "It's hard to believe that the SCC, already having a rocky relationship with the Sol alliance, is going to allow a looted flag branded with Szlazi's fleet. The Southern Military District was actively hostile to Biesel and engaged their ships and raided their territory for most of its existence. Near the end they did have a ceasefire, though that doesn't quite make up for it. That makes it harder to justify versus one of the wildland states that wasn't so belligerent."

You were already given the exact same reasoning I gave you for your flagpatch being unacceptable. If a flag isn't, then a flagpatch that's constantly displayed on your person also logically isn't.

On 18/06/2024 at 03:35, dessysalta said:

the SCC is meant to be somewhat politically neutral

I would like you to tell me how the SCC is politically neutral when Solarian consulars aren't allowed on the ship, something done as a direct political response to the invasion of Biesel. 

On 18/06/2024 at 03:35, dessysalta said:

• Grupo Amapola has a peaked officer cap for the HOS in the loadout despite this particular group having a large amount of, and being founded by Samaritans, widely considered terrorists not only for resisting Biesel, but corporate influence in general (see: the Peacekeeper Mandate and the SCC's goods embargo, not to mention how Mictlan handles corpos generally speaking).

 

I'll look into this and if it breaches the regulation I've made clear time and time again then it will be removed. That said, you made your flagpatch (and had your flag denied) well before this item was allowed, so if anything you should have told us that it broke the rules, not used it as a bat in your own complaint.

On 18/06/2024 at 03:35, dessysalta said:

If Kira was suitable for promotion there should be no reason why she can't display a symbol of her military service that she takes pride in, considering that even if the entity it represents has done "anti-corporate" things it's not being used as an anti-corporate symbol in this context.

You're making a lot of ifs that assume that you made your character to be totally compliant with the lore. If bwoink you to not wear the flagpatch because it breaks the rules then necessarily you have to change your character to not do that. It doesn't matter what she did - if you display an anti-corporate symbol, the SCC is going to look down upon you, and that's too much for heads of staff.

On 18/06/2024 at 03:35, dessysalta said:

Solarian patriot ex-military captains and bridge crewmen exist. Ex-Himeans don't have to despise every inch of Himeo to have renounced their citizenship (mine did it because she likes money). I mean, DPRA individuals can be approved to be heads of staff, even if subject to background checks and being fired or charged if they're connected to any radicals—but the SSMD isn't radical in the way that, say, the League is or Sol isn't.

Those characters can exist, just like Kira being an SSMD sympathizer is fine, the key point is that they can't OPENLY and INDISCRIMINATELY display their anti-corporate leanings. These characters have to be made with care. You can even make a Captain that dislikes the SCC, maybe they just took the job because it pays well and they're a hypocrite. The reality of climbing the corporate ladder is that you have to make moral sacrifices and your character will likely be a hypocrite. That's good - it makes your character conflictual, having to break your morals to climb the ladder is something that you can easily transform into character fuel. The important thing is that you can't make a head of staff character that behaves the exact same as a normal character. You have more limitations and that's part of the game. It's up to you to make them into interesting limitations, because you definitely can.

As for the rest of what you've written; DPRA individuals can be be heads of staff... if you omit the rest of the rule.

Quote

The DPRA’s citizens, unsurprisingly, are incredibly unpopular for a promotion choice. The nation’s xenophobic and anti-corporate attitude is well known to megacorporations, so any citizen of the DPRA who manages to become promoted is subject to yearly interviews and background checks. Any sign of a connection to radical elements means a demotion, if not a firing.

This essentially means that you cannot be ALA-affiliated as a head of staff.

As for Himeans, I already corrected you in your ticket, you are way off. A Himean needs to renounce everything they are to be a head of staff - their citizenship, their family, their friends, and they are permanently exiled from Himeo. No Himean that loves their country is doing that. Similarly, no Himean head of staff is going to be allowed to wear Himean paraphernalia. You call this inconsistent, but you are the one creating these inconsistencies by making wrong claims about the lore.

[dessysalta]

4 hours ago, MattAtlas said:

thanks to your latest thread, which is as direct and open of an attack against me as you could make

The thread I made had nothing to do with you specifically. I had been drafting it since before this ruling because of an entirely different ruling (see how I mentioned the 2IC complaint). I'm not going to suggest that you're incompetent or in need of a replacement just because I don't get to wear a 2x3 pixel item on my character. I'm sorry for the way I behaved and none of what I said here or anywhere else was meant to be a personal attack against you. I was just upset that the character I had figured was in bounds turns out to not be that (and like I said, the 2IC thread is what prompted the elections and whatnot policy suggestion).

I agree with all of your points and have nothing else to add.

[CampinKiller]

On 19/06/2024 at 19:34, dessysalta said:

If this isn't good enough, would an Amapola HOS be allowed to wear anything denoting their former affiliation to the Samaritans?

Most definitely not.

This took way longer than 24 hours for me to come back around to, locking and archiving.