Cassie Posted May 27, 2015 Posted May 27, 2015 BYOND Key: cassy_jenelle Player Byond Key: (unknown) Edmund Wade, James Chun, Valery Compton and others Staff involved: Josh1133 Reason for complaint: Overzealous security, potential powergaming/metagaming, incompetence Approximate Date/Time: 27th May 2015, 7:23am (GMT time) So here's some facts I need to lay down. Notes: The entire round was code green. There was not a Captain, CE, HoS, atmos tech or HOP on the station at this time (beginning of the round). The engine was set up. The engine was not damaged. The station did not fully lose power until people were put into the brig. Cult round started on secret. We had just had a cult round previously. Two engineering people (one of them being me) were cultists. I, Anya Galebe (Station Engineer), and Anthony Bennit (Station Engineer). There were other cultists on station. Anya and Anthony talked to each other privately. They decided they would try making a base. This base would be a shelter for cultists, and for us to draw our runes and have a fortress and safehut and whatnot. We'd just get some existing stuff from engineering (which was fine and all, because it's within our job). It starts when Anthony goes into atmos to try take a pipe dispenser. Suddenly, the AI (you know, security AIs) catches Anthony taking a pipe dispenser from their own department, not their own sector of their department, but atmos. Which is like chemistry to a medical doctor. Suddenly the AI launches BUDDYCOP SUSPICIOUS BEHAVIOUR HUNTER MODE 9000, bolting the doors down and reporting this to sec. Suddenly, we hear the following on the radio: Antony Bennit [Engineering] says, "I took the pipe dispensor from atmos to work on the outpost." Okay cool, sweet, dude got caught. Whoops. Pretty petty, but we should expect this sort of treatment if we dare don yellow clothing. Well, we listen to hear Anthony's charges: Anya Galebe asks, "Can you explain why you are arresting our colleague?" Antony Bennit says, "The fucking AI wouldn't respond to us Val." Anya Galebe sighs. Antony Bennit says, "So we went in anyways" Valery Compton says, "They are being charged with tresspass and theft." Anya Galebe says, "He is an engineer." Valery Compton says, "They are /not/ an atmospherics technician." Edmund Wade [145.9] says, "Except break into a secure area and take a pipe dispenser without notifying anyone beforehand." Lauren Blade [145.9] says, "..we always do that with the CE's office to get into secure storage for singularity." Right-O. So he's put in a cell. Cool. At this point the singularity engine is set up by an engineer and the SMES units were turned on. Thankfully, Anthony was not searched, or our cult antics would be busted early on. But, security start patrolling engineering hallways like every 5 minutes, even the non-antags were getting annoyed at the fact the one of the officers was there standing in our lobby. They start getting a bit peeved, reasonably. I've seen several officers do this to engineering the past, one of them stood in our lobby for some time, it was really silly. David Collins [145.9] says, "THERE ARE NO ATMOS TECHS. WHO ELSE IS GOING TO WORK ON ATMOS? ASSISTANTS? I would rather have engineers work on atmos." Antony Bennit [145.9] says, "You know what. fine. You wanna do this? Engineering is now fucking against you. Fuck your power." Antony Bennit [145.9] asks, "You want to be able to BREATHE if somthing goes wrong?" Lauren Blade [145.9] says, "Because you twats are disrespecting us." IAM [145.9] says, "Very well. It is well-established that absent a Chief Engineer, secure storage must... in fact... be opened for the operation of the station." Anya Galebe [145.9] says, "Excuse me if we don't have a CE, and an engineer volunteers to help out with atmos." Anya Galebe [145.9] shouts, "Just get off our backs!" After this tiff, this happens. Different engineers actually start making threats of two kinds, one of cooperating or just withholding extra-supplementary work unless ordered by authority (which is totally optional for any engineer to do unless commanded by a CE or Captain, which is totally their choice) and actually turning off the power. I will them by colour: Sslazhir Yinzr [145.9] says, "Do it and it isss neglect of duty." Lauren Blade [145.9] says, "We are /working/." Edmund Wade [145.9] says, "That's fucking stupid, you're just working on your damn pet projects." Edmund Wade [145.9] says, "The station needs power." Lauren Blade [145.9] says, "This station will be fine, without it." Edmund Wade [145.9] says, "Requires engine setup. Now fix it, please." Ludwick Foreal [145.9] says, "This is hilarious" Edmund Wade [145.9] says, "You've intentionally sabotaged the engine to deprive the station of power." Lauren Blade [145.9] says, "Maybe I don't have knowledge of setting up an engine?.." Anya Galebe [145.9] says, "We'll do what our work requires of us, but unless the CE or Captain commands it; we're not doing specialties." Anya Galebe [145.9] says, "That's what she's saying." Anya Galebe [145.9] shouts, "What if we set up the engine and get arrested for sabotage if we accidently miss and hit a floortile. Oh no!" Anya Galebe [145.9] says, "But noawh, it's cool. We'll set it up." Antony Bennit [145.9] says, "Anya...lauren its cool. Setup the engine I will man the outpost" And another engineer, Lauren who is not an antag at this time, gets annoyed at security. Get this, this maginificent sabotage is "turning the engine off", like, by the SMES. Lauren didn't actually let the other engineers (to my knowledge) know she was actually going to actually turn it off, as you can see by Anya's explaination to what she said. Anyway, Lauren gets converted as our IPC cultist comes in and does a convert rune in engineering before wiping it away after. I have no idea if this was seen or not. Here's where my main issue lies: The officers are still just there, standing in the lobby, drifting in and out like a bunch of zombies. Anyway, suddenly, the first actual "gank" of the game happens: Valery Compton blinds Anya Galebe with the flash! ÿ!Edmund Wade draws the the taser gun, pointing it at the ground. Valery Compton puts the flash into the security belt. ÿValery Compton is trying to put some handcuffs on Anya Galebe Like, we were just having tea in the engineering lobby. No antag shit whatsoever, not armed, not running. Just there at the table. I get run over to, lolflashed and cuffed. Get this, by the warden. The damn warden who should be in the brig and sending out officers if there's no HoS; not being one! Edmund Wade says, "You're under arrest for inciting sedition and neglect of duty." Uuuugh, how lovely. Yeah yeah, whatever. Let me just explain how I and the others actually didn't have anything to do with the "sabotage" and we can call it a day? That's what questioning and investigation and fingerprints are for, right? I consider to myself, if I do get done for neglect of duty, it's just demotion and ten minutes out of the game. No biggie. Also, what? Sedition? Wait, what's sedition again? Uh, security are authority of engineering? The warden left the brig; and he does not qualify as authority to the engineering department. There was no "chain of command" to rebel against - literally. I don't even know about myself if I could have possibly said anything that actually goes towards "nations". Anyway, without any questioning, investigation, or even a quick brief on who did or said what - the entire engineering department, including ones who were not involved got tossed into solitary over a bogus charge - I shit you not. About 2/3rds of the cult (including non-antags) were almost wiped out of the game and put in a small cramped solitary cell for the rest of the game because of incompetent security measures. Anyway, the round turned to our side when someone in security got converted and helped us bust out. Because we were now "fugitives" the cult could not go in an RP way as we were now shoot-on-sight antags in perma, which is not personally my ideal way of being in a round as it's not a "let's RP" environment. But can this be entirely blamed on the cult? Personally, I never actually killed anyone, but the round was quite a riot. Antags literally had to become more aggressive and less stealth because they would have been ended for just sneezing. This is not the first time antag rounds have ended prematurely, blown up, or completely fizzled out by shitcurity. I really don't want to have another round like this.
PoZe Posted May 27, 2015 Posted May 27, 2015 As I was involved in that in future I want to add. I was playing as Dmytro Koschoviy this round. I have joined after the power goes out, Ana was cuffed and Lauren were converted. I Doesn't have any logs but you can check them. So I have arrived as an engineer on the station, I was heading to the engineering to fix the power(because hallway power were already off) when Lauren requested help at the Tech Storage. So I came inside and we start to Convert-RP, no force were invovled, I have joined to the cult with RPing part(not just "join", lol I am cult now!). That was only 10 minutes as I joined the round, then cyborg came to the Tech Storage and saw us with Rune seems that AI warned him and called the security to. Lauren start to flash borg and says me to hit it, I start to hit it with a wrench(5-6 hits), after which security came inside with Anna that was cuffed and they arrested us. After that the brought us to the brig and putted into Permabrig, I asked them from crimes, theys said "Mutiny(Mutiny, what?), sabotage of power(I wasn't connected to), Resisting arrest, attacking secrity officers(I was not, because only Lauren tried to get baton from officer, I was just Running) With those crimes they said that I am going to the Permabrig as everyone. But as I know(because I am playing security officer everytime) those crimes are not connected to me and even if they were that doesn't punished to Premabrig the person.
EvilBrage Posted May 27, 2015 Posted May 27, 2015 You missed a few details. Specifically, the parts where: I watched Lauren Blade, on camera, sabotage the engine by removing the energy cell from the APC in the engine room. I advised the engineering staff of this and also suggested that they bring the engine back up. Everyone in the engineering staff claimed they had no knowledge of how to set up the singularity. I advised that the energy cell be replaced. I waited fifteen minutes. We rushed to tech storage because we heard a flash and subsequent beatings as we were arresting engineering, discovering Lauren and Dmytro assaulting the borg and officers who came to perform the arrest, at which point nonviolent sedition was upgraded to mutiny. You may also remember that you continually shouted "engineering is against you!" That wholly constitutes trying to separate the station into "Nations" as mentioned in the sedition charge (neglect of duty and sabotage of the engine should be self-explanatory.) One of you even yelled "ATMOSIA!" at one point, in case I hadn't driven the point home sufficiently. This entire complaint boils down to this - you decided to escalate a two-minute time-out for your friend into blackmailing security by withholding power from the entire station, and now you're whining that you got arrested for it - did you honestly expect that to go any differently? Never mind you lot went on to be complete shitlords for the rest of the round, openly encouraging attacking people in arrivals and converting them and moronic things like that. I'm surprised all of you aren't antag-banned.
Guest Posted May 27, 2015 Posted May 27, 2015 I watched Lauren Blade, on camera, sabotage the engine by removing the energy cell from the APC in the engine room. So, you were observing engineering since round start, for some reason? We rushed to tech storage because we heard a flash and subsequent beatings as we were arresting engineering, discovering Lauren and Dmytro assaulting the borg and officers who came to perform the arrest, at which point nonviolent sedition was upgraded to mutiny. So, your response to the engine not being set up properly was to permabrig the entire engineering department? Did you expect the particle accelerator to be intimidated by your display of martial prowess and turn itself on? At which point exactly is arresting and permabrigging an entire department necessary? I'd argue someone took the epic "Engineering vs Security" meme way too far, this round. Never mind you lot went on to be complete shitlords for the rest of the round, openly encouraging attacking people in arrivals and converting them and moronic things like that. I'm surprised all of you aren't antag-banned. You advocate permabrigging an entire fucking department because they were rude to you over the comms. Permabrigging. No processing, permabrigging. You permabrigged an entire department because one of them sabotaged the engine. Im suprised all of you aren't sec-banned. However, I will request that you are following this complaint, because in 3 years of playing on LLA, Goon and various light/no RP servers, I have never seen security do something as mind numbingly stupid as permabrig a whole department because one of them secretly sabotaged the engine. (Thus they must all be traitors.)
Cassie Posted May 27, 2015 Author Posted May 27, 2015 Okay first off, stop using the word "advised". I watched Lauren Blade, on camera, sabotage the engine by removing the energy cell from the APC in the engine room. Someone in deadchat told me it was simply "turned off", but the fact I am even so out of the loop (and many other engineers were) just proves how much of a great idea arresting everyone in engineering was. We're not a hivemind, we don't know the split second an engineer tries to poop in the supermatter or something. We're going to have to stumble across, discover, or be alerted to this. My character, along with PoZe's character who had just arrived had no knowledge of this. This is an easy misunderstanding but I have no sympathy because if you guys were doing your job correctly and summoning questioning and investigation like you should you could have easily prevented the stuffing of random people into perma like a chicken coup. Even non-antags and uninvolved engies got the brunt of this too, rememeber? I advised the engineering staff of this and also suggested that they bring the engine back up. As the topic states, the majority of the engineering staff had knowledge the engine was set up intially. I myself, knew the engine was set up. But little had knowledge of the sabotage, I am not sure about what engineers knew about it beyond Lauren at this point. Think about this - our engineers did not even know the engine was sabotaged (both IC and OOC); we actually only found out after we were arrested. Which explains how fucked up this situation was in the first place While being arrested, we shouted "We have not done anything!", "The engine has been set up!", and our characters were telling the truth in that regard, because to their knowledge that was true. You may also remember that you continually shouted "engineering is against you!" Correction: Anthony Bennit said that. If you wanted to pursue that charge, you should have sent him into questioning as a suspect. By engineering is against you; that only counts as mutiny when said towards command and overthrowing command (WHICH WAS NONEXISTANT IN THAT ROUND) - and here's the thing, there was no command. Nations only count if it is revoking command access and actually declares war on the chain of command. If medbay and cargo decide to have a petty fight with each other one round; that's not a mutiny or a sedition; that's just a petty mess that their heads have to fix. But if these departments try to throw out their commanding officers and turn against the chain of command; that's where you can place those labels. Any department, like Engineering is obliged to do power and to fix breaches and life-threatening things (this goes under neglect of duty); but unless they've been ordered by the Captain or CE, they are not obliged to do anything else. They are not obliged to listen to other departments either (though that -is- preferred), like medbay or security. Security does not have authority, so it is not a "rebellion". The whole reason for the projected "anarchy" you mention is the fact there were no compatible heads around. So there. We rushed to tech storage because we heard a flash and subsequent beatings as we were arresting engineering, discovering Lauren and Dmytro assaulting the borg and officers who came to perform the arrest, at which point nonviolent sedition was upgraded to mutiny. First of all, you could not pull mutiny in the first place as there was no command. There was no official authority on station for them. There was no authority to rebel against because there was none. Security is a department, it is in no way governing over engineering. The warden is not a head. Secondly, those two engineers attacking the borgs do not classify as mutiny - that is assault. That is assault of an officer, not mutiny. It could have been a completely isolated incident (and in a way, it was), what basis did you have to stand on other than hypothesis gathered by existing prejudices? The best part of this is one of the engineers had no idea what was going on (between sec and engineering), and they were actually attacking the borg for a completely different reason. You had reason to suspect Lauren, but you used the fallacy of guilt by associated on Dmytro, which was soon applied to the entire engineering team. This entire complaint boils down to this - you decided to escalate a two-minute time-out for your friend into blackmailing security by withholding power from the entire station Correction. Lauren blackmailed withholding power, and to my knowledge was the only one to blatantly do so. All the other engineers would have had different charges, if not at all. My engineer Anya; the only thing you could possibly nab her with is being disrespectful on comms; yet she was slapped on with all the charges.
EvilBrage Posted May 27, 2015 Posted May 27, 2015 So, you were observing engineering since round start, for some reason? I started observing the engine room when they stated they would be sabotaging the engine to prevent us from having power. Surprise surprise. So, your response to the engine not being set up properly was to permabrig the entire engineering department? Did you expect the particle accelerator to be intimidated by your display of martial prowess and turn itself on? At which point exactly is arresting and permabrigging an entire department necessary? I'd argue someone took the epic "Engineering vs Security" meme way too far, this round. This was not "the engine wasn't set up properly." This was intentional sabotage to deny the station of power - and it was directly stated that this was the goal, by Lauren Blade - the same individual that, as you may recall, is the one I spotted removing the power cell from the APC not a minute after the declaration. Blame the people who shouted that was the case (see also: everyone who was arrested.) We had an engineering borg setting up solars - given time, we would've had power again. Mind you - none of these whiners spent five minutes in the permabrig, they flooded my LOOC and a cultist took advantage of it to rush me and knock me out, so don't bring your victim card out just yet. You advocate permabrigging an entire fucking department because they were rude to you over the comms.Permabrigging. No processing, permabrigging. You permabrigged an entire department because one of them sabotaged the engine. Im suprised all of you aren't sec-banned. However, I will request that you are following this complaint, because in 3 years of playing on LLA, Goon and various light/no RP servers, I have never seen security do something as mind numbingly stupid as permabrig a whole department because one of them secretly sabotaged the engine. (Thus they must all be traitors.) I've also never seen someone jump in on a complaint so quickly without actually understanding what I've explained. I've noticed that you tend to do this a lot, so let me be exceedingly clear about this: They were all guilty of attempting to blackmail the entire station, and each of them directly stated their part in it over the radio. They were arrested for denying the station power, and my decision to place them in the permabrig was mostly due to the fact that the actual cellblock was running out of power very quickly. The plan was to move them once power was restored, but as I stated earlier, that never actually happened because - again - I was attacked. I'll say this again so it's absolutely clear without any room for misinterpretation: The aforementioned players spent approximately two minutes in the permabrig. -snip- If your argument is that anyone can do as they damn well please just because there's no command staff, I have terrible news for you. You vocally agreed with Lauren - who had directly stated that she was shutting down the engine - then changed your mind while you were being arrested. Like everyone does to try to plea their innocence. We hardly had time to process you - why is this even a complaint? If you didn't know the full extent of what they had been doing, then you fell through the cracks because you ran your mouth - it happens. Get this through your head, though: there were only three of you, and by your own admission, two of them were involved with the secession/sabotage, so a majority of the engineering staff did indeed know about the hostile activity taking place. Again, the engineers were inciting rebellion - just because there's no chain of command doesn't mean it's impossible to incite rebellion. Trying to play rules lawyer with a two-line blurb on a webpage is just an excuse for the shit-tier antagging that took place - period.
Guest Posted May 27, 2015 Posted May 27, 2015 -snip- Okay. Tell me this. The engineers were arrested the first time when one of them borrowed the pipe dispenser. Then they were put on watch because Lauren (who was, interestingly enough, not even a cultist) said they would turn off the engine? What made you jump to conclusion that the entire engineering was involved in this? Otherwise, it just looks like you were trying to make your job easier by detaining the entire department as a shortcut.
EvilBrage Posted May 27, 2015 Posted May 27, 2015 (edited) Bennit was the one who first yelled that "engineering was against you." Lauren Blade then said she would shut off the engine, to which Bennit (still incarcerated during his two-minute stint, mind you) agreed. She then went and pulled the energy cell out of the APC. I'd only intended to stick Bennit in for a time-out to begin with, and I didn't change my mind, so we let him go after his two minute stint was up. I asked engineering to put the energy cell back into the APC. Nothing. I asked several times, but all I got back was that, "we don't feel respected so you get no power." That's nigh on word-for-word from Lauren Blade. Childish bullshit at its finest. My intention was never to arrest "the entire engineering department," but rather the three (Bennit, Lauren, and Anya) who had all vocally stated their involvement over the radio. The last guy (Dmytro) was only brought in after, during the arrest, he fought against officers and the borg along with Lauren. In short, we arrested everyone who had vocally stated their refusal to work on the sabotaged engine and those who fought back, and the entire department was lumped into one category or the other if not both. The only one who didn't actually fight back was Anya and, if I hadn't been ambushed, she'd probably have been the only one to walk out of there when she got the chance to explain what was going on. Let me emphasize one more thing: Anyway, without any questioning, investigation, or even a quick brief on who did or said what - the entire engineering department, including ones who were not involved got tossed into solitary over a bogus charge - I shit you not. About 2/3rds of the cult (including non-antags) were almost wiped out of the game and put in a small cramped solitary cell for the rest of the game because of incompetent security measures. The "cult" was only held in the powered-down permabrig (not a "small cramped solitary cell") for about two minutes before being freed by an ambush, and they were raging in LOOC the entire time, as Josh can testify. I even went out of my way to dismiss the arcane tome and the talisman as "modern art bullshit" but they couldn't stop screaming their heads off about metagaming (which I've yet to see a case for, honestly.) Edited May 27, 2015 by Guest
Cassie Posted May 27, 2015 Author Posted May 27, 2015 They were all guilty of attempting to blackmail the entire station, and each of them directly stated their part in it over the radio. Define blackmail. What crimes would actually be applicable for the engineers excluding Lauren, because I honestly would like to know. I'll say this again so it's absolutely clear without any room for misinterpretation: The aforementioned players spent approximately two minutes in the permabrig. This is a bit pointless to mention because this is simply a point of luck; if things went your way we would have stayed in there an entire round perhaps. After all, our headsets were taken, clothes removed and tossed in there; not much we could have done if we did not get broken out. You vocally agreed with Lauren - who had directly stated that she was shutting down the engine - then changed your mind while you were being arrested. Like everyone does to try to plea their innocence. You may say that, but this quote is actually undeniable. In fact, let's go back to my original post quotes because you /clearly/ missed it. Anya Galebe [145.9] says, "But noawh, it's cool. We'll set it up." Antony Bennit [145.9] says, "Anya...lauren its cool. Setup the engine I will man the outpost" Secondly even if we did get put in the same boat, you could not slap mutiny OR sedition on me. You might have possibly thrown a "Neglect of Duty", and maybe this thread would probably not exist. Let me requote: Let me just explain how I and the others actually didn't have anything to do with the "sabotage" and we can call it a day? That's what questioning and investigation and fingerprints are for, right? I consider to myself, if I do get done for neglect of duty, it's just demotion and ten minutes out of the game. No biggie. But no, you aimed for the perma, on false interpretations too. If your argument is that anyone can do as they damn well please just because there's no command staff, I have terrible news for you. Most of engineering were not actually breaking laws - even they vocalized support, I can't say a lot of them touched the engine. Even if you had suspicion you can't just permabrig everyone like that, especially when they all said different things. Yet all of them were permabrigged, not just arrested - perma'ed, I am asking your excuse on that. Again, the engineers were inciting rebellion - just because there's no chain of command doesn't mean it's impossible to incite rebellion. Do I even have to do this? Rebelling is an act of defiance towards authority. You can not rebel without authority. You can't have a mutiny without heads, you can't have a revolutionary act without heads. No one mentioned hostility towards centcom. You can possibly slap on other charges (and I even scoff at that), but not that. Security are not in the chain of command, you cannot make a mutiny charge because some engineers threatened to not serve you. If you wanted to deal with one engineer who threatened to cut power; deal with her - even her charges don't go into mutiny; it's neglect of duty. We hardly had time to process you - why is this even a complaint? Sigh. Look, if you had plenty of time to arrest an engineer for going into atmos to take a harmless pipe dispenser, piss off the engineers, and use the AI and security cameras as spycams; you have time. Get this through your head, though: there were only three of you, and by your own admission, two of them were involved with the secession/sabotage, so a majority of the engineering staff did indeed know about the hostile activity taking place. Names and evidence please. Because the way you guys generalize and twist the truth to justify things, I honestly have to be careful with the info you give out. And no, being in the engineer bed room trying to figure out my cult words while default cyborg roams in and out of the rooms for weird reasons - I was not informed of any "hostile" activity, and knowing this there was a change other engineers had the same issue. The only hostile activity I actually saw was two engies beating said cyborg while we were being arrested. We were instantly put into perma. We could have been held and put into questioning - we really could. But this is honestly a very common trope where people are instantly put into perma and having their charges generalized (slapped on), and maximized/exaggerated to the highest degree. Trying to play rules lawyer with a two-line blurb on a webpage is just an excuse for the shit-tier antagging that took place - period. Have you ever successfully played antag with security breathing down your back, having a grandma AI watching you, with a rambo warden, ready to arrest you for sneezing? And if you sneeze, they find the best excuse to put you in perma even if it's a bogus one that makes no sense. Like, honestly, you want RP cult? Don't do that shit.
EvilBrage Posted May 27, 2015 Posted May 27, 2015 (edited) -snip- I could argue this with you all day, but Skull and Josh have logs, and I hope they're going to chime in here at some point with definitive clarification. You're misrepresenting a great number of things in order to distance yourself from what took place. You're acting like we held you for an hour while sitting on our thumbs and waiting for you to repent of your sins - that was not the case. I didn't even have time to begin questioning before I was ambushed. You're speculating on things that you think we would have done, but the fact of the matter is that we'll never know. You're also conveniently leaving out the logs in which I repeatedly asked about the engine, and the engine room, and when it was going to be fixed. I waited a good amount of time for this to happen before I actually went ahead with my arrests - I even ahelped the entire thing first to precede the amount of bitching I knew was going to come out of it, because you handled a two-minute arrest with a "retribution" that was scaled way out of proportion. Again, given time, Anya could have been ruled out of involvement, but we can't know that because I was ambushed. Have you ever successfully played antag with security breathing down your back, having a grandma AI watching you, with a rambo warden, ready to arrest you for sneezing? And if you sneeze, they find the best excuse to put you in perma even if it's a bogus one that makes no sense. Like, honestly, you want RP cult? Don't do that shit. I have - and quite successfully, as a few players around here could tell you. None of it involves shit-tier "threats" to deprive the entire station of power without expecting any sort of consequence. Whether you were involved or not, a good antagonist knows how to distance himself from others who'll be caught more easily and use them as a distraction rather than try to save them with idiotic forms of blackmail. You got some terrible luck of the draw, and you failed to distance yourself from them properly by vocalizing your support, resulting in your being lumped in with them when the lot of you were arrested. You didn't play an antagonist properly. Learn from it, or don't. It's a gross exaggeration to say this even remotely "ruined" the round for you - hell, I even decided to join you after incessant rune-spam-clicking from the lot of you, but then your grand idea became to mob everyone at arrivals and convert them en masse before they'd even had a chance to properly situate themselves. How is that fun for anyone? Perhaps the most telling was Bennit's reaction to when I called the lot of you out on your terrible play, and his response was: "How were we terrible when we won?" That seems to be the mindset behind this entire complaint. Edited May 27, 2015 by Guest
Tainavaa Posted May 27, 2015 Posted May 27, 2015 I ghosted this round and observed. From what I've learned and observed, I haven't seen any cult meta pertaining to the crackdown. Antony got a two-minute time out. He got upset. Yelled on the radio about "having the WHOLE of engineering against you". Engine turned off. Been off for a while. Tried to get engineering to turn it back on. Engineering had every intent to turn on the engine... 'eventually'.Security decided that was bullshit, and decided to crack down on engineering for not doing their jobs. That is, to make sure the station is powered. Getting caught in cult activity at the same time was entirely coincidental. Very bad timing and/or planning on their part I know a few people have been saying that the crackdown happened before the whole engine/violence business... That I know for a fact, is wrong. Especially the engine business. Some ghosts, myself included, were talking about the engine being shut off before the crackdown. I fucked off somewhere else on the station looking for any cultists that might want a ghost summoned or brought to the tangible plane for any reason and happened to float back towards engineering to check on the engine (which was still off mind you) and I noticed security walking down the halls towards the engine room. Moral of the story, in my opinion? Don't piss off security if you plan on doing dark deeds. You're bound to get caught.
josh1133 Posted May 27, 2015 Posted May 27, 2015 As the only staff online during this time, this is what I saw during my time. Around 3 am I had decided to observe this round, so flying around I missed quite a few things. I missed the initial arrest of Bennit but I was informed of the engine being sabotaged via Ahelp. Flying around I noticed some of the station was losing power to back up their story, so I gave Security permission to go forward and do what they need to do. Watching from there, I saw two engineers attacking a borg, who claimed to have come in to see if everyone was alright (( why he did this I do not know)). These people were arrested and brought to Perma, to which my LOOC was filled with both sides insulting each other over and over. This made me come over, to which I was greeted by Poze screaming that he just joined the round and started screaming regulations at sec in LOOC, Techno calling Brage a twat and you, Cassie, telling me things that I knew were wrong. Sad to say, I stood by my decision to let Sec crack down. One of you sabotaged the power, quite a bit of the station was in the dark for some time before Sec arrested you yet none of you did anything, and two of you beat the shit out of a borg for little to no reason as far as I know. This resulted in Cassie calling me bias, which greatly upset me but I didn't say anything at the time. I then told Techno he had permission to do what he needed to do to escape, and was interrupted by Poze screaming "SEC TOOK THE SOAP, META AS FUCK". When I informed him they did not and that he needed to cool down, and Techno told him that he had it instead, I was met by Poze screaming something along the lines "Are you telling me I need to cool down?!" Now at this point. I should have started LOOC muting, and I defiantly should have muted Poze OOC wise when he brought it to the OOC channel. From here it gets a little fuzzy, but I know Alberyk came in and freed you while I was typing and I decided that instead of pausing the scene I let you continue. Now, you had the Warden who was cult, who could have easily said he released you if you asked him since he was now one of you, but instead you decided to break into the armory and start killing/force converting everyone. Slowly, me and the rest of dead chat watched as you went from 6 people to 15 people and killed those you could not convert, like Terrance Frank. I got a Ahelp at the time that you were also camping Arrivals, and when I went to check it out, arrivals had been depressurized. I found a person laying on the ground but they had logged so I could not ask them about what had happened. I later learned that at least one player who had just gotten out of Cyro was taken and forced to convert mere moments after joining. At this point, I had decided I could not be everywhere at once so I simply started taking names down on people who I would talk too when I got the chance, or give them to admins. Finally, Nar'Sie was summoned. Now at this point, I truly thought about antag banning at least five member of the cult for the disaster of a round I had just witnessed. But, knowing I had a bad day already and was exhausted from dealing with everything that was happening that round, I decided I pass it off to the admins instead of make a rash choice. But, I'm not known for controlling my anger, so I made a comment in OOC...to which some of my favorite comments were "I hope your talking about the shitcurity" and "You are just butt hurt about dying" Now, obviously I was not upset about dying as I had not played. While Security was no saint this round, when someone /sabotages the engine that is keeping everything running including the air that the station is breathing, and the rest of the department does not fix it after being asked too (( he did ask I did see))/ I tend to think Sec is not the worse of the bunch here. My favorite comments came from Cassie though, where after a small spat in OOC spilt out, and a player apologized to me for the round, two comments from Cassie came up. One, I can't remember the exact wording but it was a sarcastic remark about how I was the victim in the situation and we should all feel bad for. Now at this point, you were saying it because I didn't agree with you and I should have muted you for disrespect to staff. But I was a patient guy, the thing I didn't tolerate though was when you told Direwolf to basically "Stop kissing my ass". That got you muted. I'll be asking the admins for the logs to these statements later, when Im not exhausted. But you know, your attitude has always been "Blame Security" so I can't really expect anything different from you. I may be a medical/Sec player most of the time so I have bias, but at least I will admit it. You and Poze were so disrespectful that round that had it not been just me dealing with that, I would have asked staff for something harsher then the slap on the wrist that I gave you. But I was afraid of my bias, so I let you go and continue the round. Look how that turned out. You are not innocent in any way in this situation, the way you make this story sound so that Security seems like these meta game white knights is untrue. Fun fact, I actually do my job and check things. One of you got caught hacking a door and was asked about it, instead of giving a response they ran away and later got caught breaking in. They served two minutes for this, and you turned off the power to a giant station and refused to turn it back on. Were the charges perfect? No. But basically held the entire station hostage until you got what you wanted, (( and you can say you weren't apart of it, but you were)), so you deserved the perma brig none the less. I'll type up a proper response when I get some rest, and I will get the logs from Scope and let the admins handle things from here. But that is my take on things for that round.
Cassie Posted May 27, 2015 Author Posted May 27, 2015 Tainavaa, I clearly remember the singularity engine being set up. An engineer in a hardsuit was setting it up, and I asked him if he is setting it up and he said yes, and I came back to the engine with the singularity set up, blast doors down and the plasma tanks filled (the singularity was set up, NOT the supermatter). So no, OOC'ly, the engine business was set, in my eyes. Also, the respect I was given was returned, if it was not a lot; maybe try seeing how we were treated because give what they get. I have not played engineering or antag on this server in ages, and this is the first time in forever I've had to deal with this. It really should be in the logs. I'm not sure if you have Particle Accelator changes being logged here, but that too should show up. Been off for a while. Tried to get engineering to turn it back on. Engineering had every intent to turn on the engine... 'eventually'. I'm honestly looking through my logs, I can see where security is like, "Turn the engine on!", but obviously the problem with security this round is because they assumed everyone was in on it, they basically made everyone in on it. My engineer was IC'ly like, "Whatever, engine's on. Whatever." and has not been too involved (or aware the engine has been sabotaged) so none of this makes sense to her. "They don't deserve power. Let's protest", Lauren says, and my character is like "True." But my character did make it clear where she stands, I posted the logs for gods' sake. Not matter where you stand on Lauren, Bennit, Anya, or any of the individual engineers - none of them warranted permabrig or the sudden rush-in arrests and aggravating from sec. In fact, let's go over it shall we? Lauren - Possible charges that can be applied: Neglect of Duty? (max 40 mins brig and demotion), Sabotage? (max 40 mins brig and demotion), Vandalism? (max 10 mins and demotion) Bennit and Anya- Possible charges that can be applied: Neglect of Duty? (max 40 mins brig and demotion), Sabotage? (max 40 mins brig and demotion), Vandalism? (max 10 mins and demotion) I am not certain if Bennit actually participated in those crimes - that's something the player or an admin would have the clear on, but this is all based on suspicion any way. Keep in mind that Anya was kept out of this and never touched the engine or was informed at any point, and told the people on the comms that the engine was being set up (to her knowledge, it was). I'm not sure how your fart of an excuse of "I was ambushed" justifies skipping processing, let us know a bit more about that. Dmytro - Possible charges that can be applied: Assault (max 40 minutes and demotion) Also you don't selectively question during incidents like this. If you want to slap on extra charges like "mutiny" instead of assault, ask yourself; hey should we investigate and see what's going on RP wise? Otherwise just arrest for the crime in front of you. That's why the sec department is a mess on this server, not the first time this has happened. Permabrigging on impulse, AI-hawking, is not something to be lightly used on this server; and that is what this topic is for. The fact is, because you weren't RP'ing properly and in your usual mode of desperating hunting arrests and having the AI work as a classroom snitch (at round start!); we could not do anything. We don't even have the privilege of questioning, especially when people are trying to slap on incompatible perma-tier charges on you when even the worst thing you actually did (or projected to do) doesn't warrant it. Then people have a nerve to expect the cult to be graceful when it breaks out (to be honest, it was not even that bad) It's ridiculous and I really do not understand the psychology behind it. Why? That's what the complaint is for. edit: Also, josh. You too were acting like a dick in LOOC and OOC, so let's battle that after. The beef between you and I is for another complaint; this was for the round. Look how that turned out. You are not innocent in any way in this situation, the way you make this story sound so that Security seems like these meta game white knights is untrue. Provide logs, or just don't.
Tainavaa Posted May 27, 2015 Posted May 27, 2015 Do you see the log where you told me in LOOC that you did plan on turning the engine back on? That means you, as a player, knew. And chances are, your character knew as well. I mean, you did plan on turning it back on... Right?
Cassie Posted May 27, 2015 Author Posted May 27, 2015 Tainavaa, I am actually getting very tired of repeating myself. I only talked in LOOC after we were put in the perma. We were only notified the engine was sabotaged after we were put in perma. I said the power was being put on already. I also said that I did not sabotage it. Do you need any more information?
Tainavaa Posted May 27, 2015 Posted May 27, 2015 You said you WERE going to. Heavy implication on prior knowledge here. A lot of the cultists were grabbing at any straw to be angry and be right in some way there. I disagree. Josh saw them ask as well. That's not true at all, after the permabrig incident I looked at the engine to find the baby singularity at stage one, and the particle accelerator was still off. In fact, it was dark in the bridge when a bunch of cultists were there after the armory raid. Unless someone consciously cut some wires or fucked with APC's around the station I'll have to say that that is clear misinformation or a blatant lie. You were on the team responsible for it. The principle is that if a member of your team fails and you do not correct it, you fail. Which you did. And from what I see, on a conscious decision. You don't have to believe me that I know that you were informed on the status of the engine. I don't have the logs, and therefore, no proof. Only my testimony. Admins however, have access to the logs.
Cassie Posted May 27, 2015 Author Posted May 27, 2015 Tainavaa. LOOC: Tainavaa: Fix the power next time. LOOC: Cassy_jenelle: we actually were LOOC: Cassy_jenelle: Like, serious, the singularity was up and everything In fact, have some LOOC quotes of my ignorance before I was informed. That's how much I knew Tainavaa. LOOC: Cassy_jenelle: No one fucked with the engines. You are buckled in to the bed by Edmund Wade. LOOC: Josh1133: No, some one did. LOOC: EvilBrage: I saw lauren take the cell out LOOC: Josh1133: I watched them do it. LOOC: Cassy_jenelle: In fact, check the sing. It's totally fine. LOOC: Cassy_jenelle: That was no sabotage of the engine LOOC: Josh1133: There was clear sabotage. You were on the team responsible for it. The principle is that if a member of your team fails and you do not correct it, you fail. Which you did. And from what I see, on a conscious decision. So brig an entire department? Except if you don't know, you won't know and this method combined with perma + a lack of processing is one of security's best powergame methods. I've seen it take down antags, non-antags, innocent people, people who have no idea what is going on; it ruins rounds. It's frustrating, it's pointless. Stop doing it, and I think the complaint is perfectly justified. Why even complain about the cult's spread on station when they can't even facilitate a decent arrest? But that's not even half of the complaint. My complaint was: Reason for complaint: Overzealous security, potential powergaming/metagaming, incompetence No matter where you stand on Lauren, Bennit, Anya, or any of the individual engineers - none of them warranted permabrig or the sudden rush-in arrests and aggravating from sec. And lastly, That's not true at all, after the permabrig incident I looked at the engine to find the baby singularity at stage one, and the particle accelerator was still off. In fact, it was dark in the bridge when a bunch of cultists were there after the armory raid. Unless someone consciously cut some wires or fucked with APC's around the station I'll have to say that that is clear misinformation or a blatant lie. How did the singularity exist at all? That right. Someone set it up. The singularity was a "baby" because when Lauren took out the cell in the engineering APC, the singularity's PA would have stopped working. The singularity would have begin starving and eventually shrunk. A baby singularity (stage one) is enough loss to cause power loss, esp depending on how SMES were set. I don't know about every single power issue, that is something an admin with log access can confirm; because as you know - I have no involvement with the sabotage whatsoever. I have to actually walk away from this topic for a while before I have a go. I am really done.
PoZe Posted May 27, 2015 Posted May 27, 2015 Josh, First of all, my Creaming in LOOC about Soap were nothing but hust fucking sarcasm(that was not connected to the game to much). Second part is that I was screaming corporate regulations over LOOC, why? Because I thought that Security will read it and make some conclusions from that(LOOC was the only part when I could explain them that it's wrong, because My IC tries failed, they were not answering to it). Third Part about OOC screaming was because LOOC has limted range, I was not there where was your aghost, so I have decided to tell that over OOC without /ANY/ details(Ahelping didn't makes sense, cuz you were busy and my statement were nothing but pointing oout my opinion). P.S Honestly I was mad that security permabrigged me without searching, with falsa crimes, not listening to me(As player who is playing mostly security officer). But did I tried to kill everyone after that? Take a revenge? - No, because I was not concerned about that, I was more concerned about telling to the Security player that what they did were complitely Wrong. I can agree at some point that engineering provokate them, but on the other hand, Watching for Cult from the begining of the round is NO NO. Because you should consider that as cusual shift from which you are getting money, you are lazy(or not) security officer. Your Job is to grab equipment, hide it inside the backpack and patrol and watch for something that is usually happening like: Chef want to gib pun pun, QM tresspassing into the bar for getting some booze. You cannot expect anything more then that because as NT worker and from news AURORA is operating for a long time and there was no cases more that traitors(because syndicate is operating against NT a long time). When I am playing as security officer(Mostly evertime) I am trying to not think that round type is something big, I am trying to take my attention from other stuffs and trust me at the end when the actions begin only then I think "Damn, this round was X, I forgot about it". As player with 5 years experience of playing in SS13 I am recognizing round type(on the secret) with 85% chance, there are a lot of things that you can notice on the antag behavior, but I still trying to forget about round typed and acts as it's Extended. If this round has Nuke/Wizard/Ninja/Cult/VOX then this should be consider as FIRST case of that kind of the situation. From that point, as i said before, you are just patrolling the station and maintaining the justice from Pun Pun and some minor stuffs
Tainavaa Posted May 27, 2015 Posted May 27, 2015 "Fix the power next time." "We were actually." "Singularity was up and everything" What does this tell me? You were in the process of fixing the power, or had the intent to fix the power. Nowhere did I imply that the engine wasn't set up previously. That's why I used the word "fix". Because it was in a state of function. Then it wasn't in a state of function. Compared to if the round just started, it hasn't been in a state of function and is simply not set up. You're right. The singularity WAS set up. Not anymore. The arrest was decent. And in fact EvilBrage's idea was a very genius one that never beared fruit because of the LOOC spam completely halting him, quickly followed by getting stunned by a cultist officer I believe. Brage said what he wanted to do in LOOC as well, which I'm sure you will find in the logs. So on that bit alone, metagaming is definitely a no-no. And I would argue the incompetence claim as well. I really wish it came to light. Very simple but would have been a good motivator for certain. You can call out "Metagame!" and "Shitcurity!" all you want in the same manner that flashbanging a crowd has led to people crying "Grief!" at me, but cult activity was - objectively - on the sidelines here. I will maintain my statement about being on the team that failed to rectify the issue so repeating "I wasn't involved in the sabotage" doesn't really do anything. And as far as it seems to me - as I stated before - consciously. BUT! Let's assume you had no idea, which is a technical plausibility. Security thought you knew, and needed to control the situation. There was a violent outburst at technical storage, and they needed to sort it out in an isolated, controlled manner. As any good officer should. So instead of allowing any potential guilty to get away and flooding the hallways (which I personally hate), they said "Okay, this is what needs to happen. We need this situation controlled, and a resolution brought about. We need the power on the station in order." And that's where EvilBrage's little plan came in. Which I have to say, was a pretty good call on paper. Obviously that is not how it turned out, however the intent and idea was there. You take the entire cult out of the equation, and the result of the function (until the betrayal) stays the same. That's where it goes in a completely different direction which leads to a big issue in that round itself but that's for another thread. All in all, assuming you DIDN'T know, I would still have to disagree entirely.
Cassie Posted May 27, 2015 Author Posted May 27, 2015 You're also conveniently leaving out the logs in which I repeatedly asked about the engine, and the engine room, and when it was going to be fixed. I waited a good amount of time for this to happen before I actually went ahead with my arrests - I even ahelped the entire thing first to precede the amount of bitching I knew was going to come out of it, because you handled a two-minute arrest with a "retribution" that was scaled way out of proportion. Can you give me a sample of the logs where you ask for engine stuff. You may have said them, doesn't mean I received or noticed them - if you send me them I can perhaps search for them. Or I may have seen them, but due to the IC/OOC issue I've mentioned so many times they may have been reinterpreted. I was ambused you say! I am pretty sure you were ambushed /after/ we were put in the permabrig, unless you're talking about some different ambush I have no idea about then kindly let me know about that. You probably ahelped because you knew that running up to someone randomly and flashing them in the face with serious perma-tier charges that do not actually apply to what happened in the round and no processing on top of that might be a bit dodgy. You can't have a "mutiny" without heads, you were not authority, and any of the engineers throwing a "tantrum" to you is not perma-brig material. I can only comment on what you actually did, not what you said you were going to do. All I know is that you tossed an entire department of people in the brig with charges that were wrong. Even without processing the charges were ridiculous. Even with going off suspicions of what engineers said; none of it was permabriggable And quit arguing about the reaction to the first arrest. I am talking about the erroneous charges and the overvigilant behaviour at round start. I not complaining about the first arrest, though I do no note it is dodgy but not the worst thing that happened that round - I am talking about how the arrests and "investigation" was handled and the effect it had on the round. None of it involves shit-tier "threats" to deprive the entire station of power without expecting any sort of consequence. If the consequence was 40 minute brigging and demotion, I'd accept it. This topic would not exist. If it ended with bullshit "mutiny" and sedation charges. I've rebutted why these are erroneous charges and that's part of this complaint, but they're being conveniently avoided now. If this was a one-off thing sec does, i'd allow it. But racking up charges or giving serious ones that don't apply to get people in perma is so common on this server it's actually pitiful. It's a gross exaggeration to say this even remotely "ruined" the round for you - hell, I even decided to join you after incessant rune-spam-clicking from the lot of you, but then your grand idea became to mob everyone at arrivals and convert them en masse before they'd even had a chance to properly situate themselves. When you say "you", you should mention names because I am not accepting any one elses' dirt. This is dishonest. State who is is doing what, or I will not accept it. For the note, I did not kill or convert anyone the entire round, in fact, apart from "threatening", I don't think my character did an awful lot. The only thing I can say I was complicit in was summoning Nar'Sie, which was requested. What other cultists did; not my issue - the cultist sec officer lead most of it, most of our chances to set things up and RP were ruined by the fact things were set to high risk from the beginning. The chaotic nature may also have been accelerated by the lack of heads and sec, but whatever. Things were a fucking mess and I dreaded everything since the perma. Between a chaotic round, and a prematurely stunted round, I think both are pretty terrible. Perhaps the most telling was Bennit's reaction to when I called the lot of you out on your terrible play, and his response was: "How were we terrible when we won?" I am not Bennit. Stop flinging dirt from others onto me. I am making a complaint on my experience of the round. Honestly, you can't actually come out and say you were RP'ing with anyone, and were looking out for RP potential (especially with the AI shit) and by racking up charges and trying to shove everyone into perma as fast as you can (not to mention that very detail RP flash arrest I got), I am not sure if any of you can judge anyone else on that.
Baka Posted May 27, 2015 Posted May 27, 2015 I had pulled logs and will be reading them. Please give me some time before we make a response.
Guest Posted May 27, 2015 Posted May 27, 2015 Snip snip, for the time. Baka posted before me and I didnt see it.
Frances Posted May 27, 2015 Posted May 27, 2015 As an observer, I was able to see some faults from both security and engineering's ends. The biggest two were: -Almost all of the engineering cultists began to react very abrasively to being arrested in LOOC (Cassy, Poze, Techno). Full on yelling at sec players, insults, etc. This is no way to conduct yourself if you want to resolve a conflict or bring up what you believe to be an injustice to other players. -Security did stick all of them in perma over very dubious charges. While detainees screaming "bring me a lawyer" are obviously idiots, one of sec's responsibility is to make sure the people they arrest understand why they are being arrested, to an extent. The engineers didn't seem to understand security's train of thought, nor did sec really communicate what they had seen to them. And security really should've interrogated them before sticking an entire department in perma (maybe put them in perma "temporarily" meanwhile to give them a chance to RP/break out.) There was also a security officer who engaged in a bit of shitsec - maybe mad at the LOOC complaining, iunno. X Chung (don't recall the first name), went around and spamstunned Techno when he tried to run away (in cuffs), and tried to weld permabrig doors shut for some reason.
Eliot Clef Posted May 27, 2015 Posted May 27, 2015 Hey. Just want to throw in a quick Security-converted-to-Cultist point of view here. To the best of my knowledge, none of Security (except the converted) was aware that it was a cult round at the time that any of these incidents occurred. The Security-Engineering tension and resulting confrontation was entirely a result of (part of) Engineering posturing and denying power to the station over Bennit being arrested for trespassing in atmospherics early in the round. Incidentally, when it was pointed out that, lacking a Chief Engineer it is REQUIRED for engineering to gain technically illegal access to equipment, I defended engineering. However, to the best of my knowledge, the break-in at atmospherics isn't really for a "required" station activity like engine set-up. I was a Forensic Tech that round, so I actually ended up dusting one of the broken doors to see who had been tampering with it. Engineering folks, I don't condone the permabrigging and if you'll recall I was a part of your breakout party. But if you factionalize yourselves because an engineer got minor brig time for a minor crime, yeah, Security is going to be all over you. And so it was. There was also a security officer who engaged in a bit of shitsec - maybe mad at the LOOC complaining, iunno. X Chung (don't recall the first name), went around and spamstunned Techno when he tried to run away (in cuffs), and tried to weld permabrig doors shut for some reason. Jon Chung, I think? He might've been welding the doors because the power was out and you only needed a crowbar to open them. I don't know, I didn't pay much attention to him.
Guest Posted May 27, 2015 Posted May 27, 2015 Incidentally, when it was pointed out that, lacking a Chief Engineer it is REQUIRED for engineering to gain technically illegal access to equipment If there is no CE you are still not allowed to break into areas, even if it's part of your department, if you get caught you can be arrested for it. You do not need a CE to open secure storage, I have setup the power plenty of times without opening storage as an assistant or an engineer. Atmos isn't an urgent requirement for the station, it will survive without being altered.
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