Turning Normal Characters Into Nuke Ops

[keinto]

Stop doing it. Unless your character's arch is to betray Nanotrasen FOREVER and only to be used as a Nuke Ops permanently, stop naming giving your agents the name of your usual character just so you can pass as one of the crew with your forged ID. It gives you an unfair advantage because you know players you normally interact with won't bother checking the manifest because it's a familiar character. Try a completely new character and give yourself an actual challenge if you want to pose as a crew member. Or like I said, do the bold thing of turning your character to the dark side without turning back, which I have yet to see anyone try doing.

I have seen three people already doing this gimmick and am growing quite tired of it. Give me one good reason that makes sense ICly, besides comparing it to when your character is a traitor.

[Guest]

All antag rounds are basically selective canon. You don't permanently change your character to a super-tator forever when you roll an antag slot on ling or auto-tot. I don't see why you think it's only an issue in nukeops.

[keinto]

The difference in changeling/cult/vampire is that your character was absorbed/converted/bitten before they boarded the station. For traitor, you get a message saying 'It's time to pay your debt", which is the default way to justify your character's actions, but you can also say your character is fed up with the station and Nanotrasen. You get a fistful of telecrystals to help you accomplish your objective. As for auto-traitor, it's just a dumb fun gamemode.

Your character suddenly becoming a highly trained operative when yesterday they were working in Security or Engineering is stretching it byond reason.

Like I said, I think this is fine as long as you are making such a change a permanent one. It's not okay to do it just so you get to trick other players in an unfair way.

[Frances]

But... that's what regular traitors are about already, and no one is forcing them to be canon?

I don't understand the issue. If someone tries to masquerade as part of the crew, I'd just call it clever, not "meta" or "using an advantage". It doesn't make a ton of sense ICly (since nuke ops don't have crew access, and a rogue crewmember would simply come in to work with all of their regular gear), but it's fairly difficult to pull off, and if an op actually succeeds in doing that, power to them.

[Jamini]

I see this as a non-issue as long as the crew do not give them special dispensation once they are caught/outed.

[Guest]

I see this as a non-issue as long as the crew do not give them special dispensation once they are caught/outed.

 

A terrorist is a terrorist, no matter how big or small.

[SgtSammac]

I am kinda on the side of Keinto, but not to the point that it bothers me.

Why play your already established, NT "Friendly" char, as a freakin terrorist against the corporation? Regardless of the rounds canon state.

[Guest]

Well, I'm always up for unconventional ideas when antags are in question, but as far as normal, voted in Nuke Ops are in question, normal names shouldn't be used, because they indeed give an unfair advantage. Done it myself, so I'm speaking from experience.

Then again, people shouldn't pretend they know every person on the station. Its meta. If I'm a Nuke Op dressed in gray jumpsuit walks around the station without an ID, there is no way you would know he's an intruder. When someone who doesn't have an ID looks unfamiliar, you don't look up a manifest, because there is no possible way you could know their name. Same should go for every other antag. A wizard is just a wierdo employee in wizard clothes.

Ohh, and let's not forget Winston Carton, our dear snowflake Nuke Op. Let's not repeat something like that.

[Tainavaa]

I honestly don't know why more people don't use normal names for their ops. It's much, much more interesting to see 'who's behind the mask' to find out that xXx420n0sC0p3xXx is "Fuckface McGee" under the mask instead of seeing "The REAL criminal is.... *gasp*! xXx420n0sC0p3xXx?!?!"

I never did like it when ops used their operator alias as their 'face'. So I will actively oppose this demand and say you should do it MORE. Stealth or not, it's just much more fun that way.

[SgtSammac]

I don't think he is saying not to use real names at all. He is saying don't use the names of your ESTABLISHED CHARACTERS who happen to be NT Employees.

[Tainavaa]

Which are, to my knowledge, normal names. So I maintain my counter-demand and say use normal names more. Which established characters (usually) fall under.

Much, MUCH more interesting to take off that mask and find out "IT'S MY BEST FRIEND? WHAT THE FUCK."

[keinto]

Much, MUCH more interesting to take off that mask and find out "IT'S MY BEST FRIEND? WHAT THE FUCK."

 

The examples I am giving are when they are not concealing their identity in any way. They rely on the already established familiarity of their characters and forged ID's to trick other players into not checking the manifest. I have actually done exactly what you just said as a traitor in a hardsuit and all the tools available to me with telecrystals. And even though I don't think Security was being as interested in knowing why I raided Research and axed away whoever got it the way as much as they were into just shooting and capturing me, I was prepared for the interrogation.

What is your usual Engineer or Cargo Technician character going to say once the ultra-rare occasion that someone notices they are not on the crew manifest, unless they publicly confess they are with the enemy? "lol i was a super speshul agent all teh tiem XD". Ironically, even though nuclear rounds are often the most chaotic and gankish and powergamish rounds, the backstory of the agents should be the more seriously thought out over things like vampires and changelings. Either play as a completely new character with an already established backstory that makes sense, or bother developing your usual character that route and face the consequences.

 

If someone tries to masquerade as part of the crew, I'd just call it clever, not "meta" or "using an advantage". It doesn't make a ton of sense ICly (since nuke ops don't have crew access, and a rogue crewmember would simply come in to work with all of their regular gear), but it's fairly difficult to pull off, and if an op actually succeeds in doing that, power to them.

 

All a nuke ops needs is a chameleon jumpsuit, and copying someone's access (SSD or not) into their forged ID and they are ready to go. It is meta and an advantage if it is an already established character because, like I said, they are relying on people knowing those characters and not checking the manifest, not on their cunning, or sneakiness as they would playing a completely unknown.

If you want to pose as crew, plan accordingly and give your new character a normal name so that when you talk, you don't get the text saying, "Hammerhead (as Karl Knispel) says, 'I'm a Cargo Tech." And if it too late to do that, since you decided to pose after talking to your team, ahelp it and the staff will rename your operative to whatever name you want.

I know I am basically telling you how to roleplay your antag, but it's still my opinion. Consider what I have said, and you might see why I roll my eyes every time I see this happen.

[Jamini]

I'm gonna be honest keinto, it's not yours nor my nor anyone's place to tell another person how to play their antagonist. Ultimately there are no rules against who or what names you select as nukeop (except for standard non-ref non-dick non-slur ones) and if someone is using a station name as cover all the more power to them.

Some people have merc evil twin characters, some people have totally unique ops, some people play their normal characters as mercs. That is how it is. I would rather not restrict the ability for the mercs to freely choose who and what they want to play as.

Also, assuming I ever finish it, some day antagonists and nukeops will be able to disguise the name they have when another person is viewing them normally with the disguise kit. I'm just throwing that out there.

[Tainavaa]

Well, Keinto, if I were someone trying to infiltrate a station, I would probably abuse my familiarity and the trust as well. It isn't metagaming if that's something you might logically do.

I've seen nukes infiltrate using some weird off-the-wall name and infiltrate successfully and blend in perfectly without being noticed. It isn't different when you use your established character. You're going to use the trust other people have in you to get what you want, one way or another. It isn't metagaming, if I were an operator in real life, I'd try and abuse the hell out of that. It only hurts worse when you realize you were just being used and that feeling of betrayal just makes more drama. It's great.

So instead of taking off the mask and being like "IT'S MY BEST FRIEND? WHAT THE FUCK." it's seeing them disappear afterwards or in cuffs saying "I WAS BEING USED BY MY BEST FRIEND? WHAT THE FUCK."

Much, much more interesting.

[Guest]

-No metagaming. This could mean using any knowledge external to your character (knowledge of antag types/items as a non-traitor, or knowledge of who is the traitor from OOC information) to give yourself an unfair advantage.

 

 

How is attempting to impersonate another established character metagaming?

[Rechkalov]

What Tainavaa just said.

Also it might be worth mentioning that estabilished characters as nukeops have provided us with lovingly creative conflicts in the past - Winston Carton/Stein had often shown regret and restrain and even hints on the possibility of abandoning his antag role altogether because of his ties to certain characters.

And overall, there's not really much room for preparing your antagonist's character, and very often -I feel - the antagonists are nothing but just that; the bad guys.

Slapping an already living character onto your antagonist makes them human. Relatable to. Creates new perspectives and possibilities.

It might provide them with an unfair advantage, but then; wasn't it our motto of sorts, that we are here to roleplay, create entertaining stories, rather than win?

I'd be happy to lose to Carton any day of the week.

[keinto]

-No metagaming. This could mean using any knowledge external to your character (knowledge of antag types/items as a non-traitor, or knowledge of who is the traitor from OOC information) to give yourself an unfair advantage.

 

 

How is attempting to impersonate another established character metagaming?

 

It seems I have been using the term wrong, but I still have problems with what people are doing.

People are not impersonating an established character. They ARE the characters that somehow turned into a nuclear operative when a day or two ago they were working for Nanotrasen with the knowledge of an average person. If your character's backstory justifies them having the intention of some day being sent into the station to nuke/steal/kidnap it, then they are probably a snowflake. This is something we can't get around when they are traitors, but the fact that they don't start at some hideout with a nuke and state of the art equipment is why I give traitors a big pass.

I ask Delta to explain their reasoning for giving this type of behavior their approval, but not the idea proposed in this thread in which a player pitched the idea of their character secretly being a changeling all rounds. This seems like an inconsistency on what people think someone can or can't do with their characters when antagging. The thread was met with mostly refusal, and so is this one, even though it asks for the termination of that same behavior that people keep doing instead of courteously asking everyone's opinion like the originator of the changeling thread.

[Tainavaa]

People come up with some interesting justification. Not to attack you, but are you saying this because you yourself have been fooled and felt personally offended from it? Or do you think there is just literally no justification?

What you're proposing yourself is from a metagaming perspective. There have been peace ops that have come by and were legitimately peaceful operators with no intent to harm the station or crew yet they spawn with tactical jumpsuits and SMG's because that's how the round starts no matter what you have in mind.

[keinto]

People come up with some interesting justification. Not to attack you, but are you saying this because you yourself have been fooled and felt personally offended from it? Or do you think there is just literally no justification?

What you're proposing yourself is from a metagaming perspective. There have been peace ops that have come by and were legitimately peaceful operators with no intent to harm the station or crew yet they spawn with tactical jumpsuits and SMG's because that's how the round starts no matter what you have in mind.

 

I have not been fooled by usual characters turned nuke ops posing and crewmembers. The only time I was fooled was during a secret nuclear round where they posed as NT officials, and these were all completely new characters as far as I know, and I thought it was funny. In all the other instances, I was either observing, or the posers were so blatantly obvious they were found out and seemed pointless. What interesting justifications have you seen people come up with?

Yes, it is from a meta perspective because I am still going to make my character become surprised/shocked. But from an OC perspective, I'm not going to be particularly amused.

[Guest]

I ask Delta to explain their reasoning for giving this type of behavior their approval, but not the idea proposed in this thread in which a player pitched the idea of their character secretly being a changeling all rounds. This seems like an inconsistency on what people think someone can or can't do with their characters when antagging. The thread was met with mostly refusal, and so is this one, even though it asks for the termination of that same behavior that people keep doing instead of courteously asking everyone's opinion like the originator of the changeling thread.

 

There's a difference between being a supercommando for one non-canon and otherwise irrelevant round out of a million you will play here, as opposed to being a permanent hostile antagonist force consistently every round and inserting that into your character's backstory and establishing that as canon despite the flow of the game and the lore. To also address another point for that thread even if the idea was considered to be 'okay', the consequences would be thusly. One, you can never tell anyone you're a ling. It is therefore pointless to have that as your backstory, as you never do changeling things nor possess any interactivity with the rest of the crew as a deep-cover changeling, otherwise you're intentionally disrupting immersion in the setting that is established. Secondly, during a changeling round when you don't get picked as an antag, you can't speak with real changelings nor make any excuses to prevent yourself from being absorbed by the real changelings. It's metagaming in that you're using out of character knowledge to give you an advantage or prevent you from suffering any consequences.

What's the difference here, then, for otherwise normal and unsuspecting crewmembers to become supercommandos in a matter of days?

The difference is that unless that character has it established for them to be a supercommando all the time as opposed to 'just this one nuclear round no one is going to give a literal fuck about 40 minutes after the server restarts', there can be a variety of different reasoning that the player has at their disposal in its attempt to apply it in an RP scenario.

Believe it or not, antags don't directly attempt to appease everyone who is ghosting and bitching/moaning in deadchat about their immersions because the antags are attempting an approach that may or may not work or might not be plausible in a realistic situation. The players here who play as an antag either play for personal or for collective enjoyment. If they can't make the round fun for everyone, they'll damn well try and do it for some people.

Antags are here to play a role. They're to make an attempt at making the crew's experience somewhat enjoyable.

So unless I see something like, "Roy Wyatt, Atmospheric Technician and super secret syndicate commando," be inserted into a character's canonized backstory, then I don't see any room for complaint.

Also, I never said that turning normal characters into ops was okay. Please don't put words into my mouth.

Also, can we stop with the "Stop roleplaying a way that I dislike" kind of threads? I myself have learned these kind of ranty threads do not turn out for the best interest of the forum community avoiding all-out blood orgies. That's all I'll say, I'll just drop the mic and be off with it.

[Tainavaa]

And you didn't even choke.

Keinto, there are numerous ways for justification. When I play Anna as an op, she just happened to get a contract and is like, okay, fuck this station anyway. It's worthless.

It's not canon outside of the round but it is for the duration of that round. Afterwards, literally nobody gives a fuck about it and it's completely forgotten. I don't see any real issue other than, as Delta said, "I don't like thing."

[keinto]

Are you talking about Anna Lee, Warden, Tainavaa?

[Tainavaa]

Yes.

[keinto]

So you have done it yourself as well, I see. So, Lee, a member of Security gets an offer to fight against the station she protects. Sounds like a logline for a movie, yet, is it plausible?

Yes, I know it's only for one round, but is it too much to ask for realistic antags on Aurora, a Heavy Roleplay server?

[Tainavaa]

She's a warden. It's a job. Her job is to manage prisoners, and to manage the brig.

People have their own story and their motivations behind their characters. Anna has her own motivations and her own backstory, none of which is forced on anyone else and so very rarely gets shown but you automatically think she's a "PROTECT AND SERVE" overzealous officer. And this, I think, is an issue in itself because I don't throw my characters' stories out there to grab a spotlight or get attention. I let the stories unfold and those who are involved, are involved, and those who want to be involved will be involved. Those who are not involved, do not get involved and are very uninformed.

I don't like the archetypes people fit others in and automatically expect others to assume. Everybody expects the Head of Security to be some super robust, ever-vigilant supersoldier that's ready to respond to anything at a moment's notice. Have people stopped to think that maybe this person has a life outside of work? Maybe there are things that aren't just thrown out to everyone? What if that head of security just got hired on because he was some normal forensic tech that got offered the job or had his application accepted because he seemed like he was fit for the position? What if that guy just wanted to get through the work day so he can go home to his wife and kids, or go to the bar with his buddies and drink and have a good time?

You talk about Anna Lee, Warden as if you know the entirety of her character. But if I asked anything about her, I'm certain you wouldn't be able to tell me very much about her. But that's the thing, Keinto. You don't know.

So yes, I am one of these people. And as one of these people, I fail to see the issue other than "I don't like thing" on several accounts.

Edited June 3, 2015 by Guest