An in-deph treatise on why we can't have nice things.

[Guest]

Zip.

Edited June 21, 2015 by Guest

[Guest]

Yes, we are all massive shitters and everything is on fire and we cannot have nice things!

Sadly, you cannot force people to RP how they should we want, but I guess everyone with a tinest shred of ability for introspecion can find themselves here. So yes, take notes people.

[Guest]

Hi, I read this.

Just to address the foreword. I also dislike when conversations boil down to nostalgia and whining/bitching/etc to what the good old days were. Believe it or not, the good old days weren't that fantastic either. Rounds were horridly slow and it was a miracle antags (much less crew) got anything done. What few instances that occurred were, arguably, extremely well-executed, but people also have to look at those instances as being extremely rare and also because everyone involved made an effort to interact with each other. Nuke rounds were non-blitzy and also pretty damn slow back then. It was a lot of tense waiting, but a lot of people got bored of it quickly.

I've actually been watching you play for awhile and I've seen a couple LOOC conversations and the lot. I recall from one thread in which you were complaining about murderboning/powergaming/etc, and the administration said to you, "It's an IC issue, deal with it." To quote someone else representing you, I believe you responded in a "I got you. I got you, admins. I got you. I definitely got you" fashion. And then you went on a murderboning space-lube-powergaming crusade yourself because, according to the rules, that was okay. I think only a few people actually got what you were doing during that time. Did you have fun, at least? Because it looked like a lot of fun, and I don't blame you at all. The atmosphere of what roleplay currently is, I really have no idea. I've never bothered to question it because I've gotten rather heated responses and debates from it that I ended up having no interest in because the other party decided to get so utterly defensive and angry that someone would dare challenge their method of roleplay. HOW DARE YOU, KNAVE?

Point one, however. Negative character feedback probably doesn't work very well in a public setting because it gets brought up in the most irrelevant instances, which is why it's discouraged on the forums. It's off-topic and apparently detracts from discussion, in which negative feedback in itself would actually pique more discussion than the opposite. We've already seen people punished and giving forum warning plus one because, god forbid we word criticism in a way to catch people's attention and tell them there is a problem. You already get a like to your post for bringing up convolution of criticism, that's another ridiculous situation we force ourselves into because no one is allowed to have problems here. It's fucking stupid, and then you're forced by the administration or whomever else to 'put it into a complaint', because we apparently can't be civilized human beings and have to be absolute children about mostly minor issues that could be remedied with a heart-to-heart and an understanding that roleplay can better be improved with the discussion. COMMUNICATION. I BOLDENED THAT, IS ANYONE ELSE READING THIS?

I literally have nothing to say about the ChaiRP and waifuism trend we've been seeing lately. Any relationships any of my characters have with others that are more than professional or friendly, I keep that mutually exclusive because I know for a fact no one wants to see any of that shit in their roleplay environment. Same goes for real life, right? No one has to know you're banging one of the many medbay uguu~ nurses that Invy has already described. Okay, good for you, you have a 2d space girlfriend. Can you stop flailing and screaming like a child whenever your ERPartner is threatened and return to roleplaying how your character actually would? It's a well-known phenomenon that grief is ridiculously difficult to roleplay realistically because not everyone has actually experienced loss, or people like to overdo it entirely because they find amusement in overdoing it. It's dumb, but people rarely actually realize this.

Regarding hermits. I've been on both sides of this. Part of this is that, I'm sitting here because I'm one, a warden, and people will bitch at me for not being at my post and trying to talk to people whenever work is getting slow and there's nobody in the communal brig. Two, if I'm not in a predefined post for the entire shift, I've no idea who to talk to. OOCly, I don't know any of the characters and who they are, and it'd be outright weird ICly to actively seek them out. To me, with some of my characters, it'd be weird for them to start conversations with other people. With others, it's not that difficult for them and they've no issue at all trying to talk to people, even if they had to break into the area in order to do so. They've actually done that before, but that's not the point. Well, maybe it is. I'm pretty sure nobody would fault you for breaking into an area just to chat up a cargo tech. Or maybe even the captain. Or anybody else. Is "I try my best" an acceptable excuse for still exhibiting hermit behavior? I don't think it is, even then.

Reliance on scripted roleplay, hm. Okay, I've organized ChaiRP over skype and some such before, but otherwise it's always been improvised. It's never "You can't say this or that, just say or do whatever you want". If anyone is ever adhering to a script on an open-field RP server, they probably would work better in filmography. The nature of SS13 is that no two rounds are the same and the most random things tend to happen and that the end-result of interaction cannot be predicted reliably in any shape or form. Anyone who thinks differently is deluding themselves. Also, metafriending is metagaming. Readers, if you're doing it, stop it. Selling out your friends to the cops would be a lot more hilarious for the sake of roleplay and would be a better change of pace than the same old-same old whisper RP everyone has done for the past 40 rounds. Hell, friendships aren't meant to be without their faults anyway. So... mix it up with a bit of negative sometimes. It'd be fun.

REGARDING THE PISS FOREST. Firstly, I would to comment that I was lucky enough to be rolled the Straight Hardwood Staff of the Champion. Nawmsayin? Anywho, regarding players who design and play their characters to focus entirely on romance and textfucking. I've no idea, I don't see these kinds of characters in security. Medbay probably gets this worse, but I can't speak for other people.

And now, the entourage of seemingly different yet seemingly similar and not different at all characters. Yeah, I dunno, none of my characters are similar to each other or are similar to other characters. The only character I've ever seen that takes a bit from one of my own would be Elena Raschnikova, but I can't even complain about them. Bokaza has designed them in such a way while, yes, they're effective in that they're a hardlining bitch and that's partially why people hailed Vira before as decent command staff, but that they've their own way of achieving the results they strive for at any cost. I will, however, complain about the very same characters you outlined in which, they're carbon copies of each other and bring nothing else to the table besides 'I am very similar to this other person, look at me! WEEEEEEE!", which in itself is pretty ridiculous but it's even more sad that it's true.

Anyway, thank you for the post, Invy. Whether or not you antagonized me is not relevant, the state of RP as it stands can get pretty drowned out in player's personal desires and conflicting attitudes, and it's at risk for becoming an unhealthy and unenjoyable atmosphere.

I appreciate your effort to try to make this a more enjoyable experience, for what it's worth, Invy.

[swat43]

I.. i have no words.. This... This.. is what i longed for some one to say for a LONG time, and you showed the balls mate! Hats down to you. Hell, i am not even offended if i got atagonized also by this thread, but much of this is so true! Not only did this thread shot straight to the point where the (most) problem was, it also made me realize my own problems i made, which now i now know, and am able to changed them because some one FINALLY SAID WHAT IS WRONG!

 

[Guest Marlon Phoenix]

Your honesty and refreshingly blunt shitposting, as well as your willingness to actively shitpost constructively is a big reason that I have a lot of respect for you.

I have to say that the hostility against criticism is probably the biggest driving force of everything else. There's no critical feedback, there's only a positive feedback loop. These problems exist because not enough people say "that's dumb, let's work on making something less dumb."

[Jakers457]

It inspired me to make a feedback thread, not one of a vanilla flavor but that of the taste of blood and tears.

[Rechkalov]

Oh my.

Well. With that attitude, I almost regret deleting the post regarding McGrath - but, there is a thin line between open/constructive criticism and being plain mean, and I was way too involved to trust myself to be the first.

Regarding the incident with the bat- I have things to say on the matter, though admittedly more in self-defense and quite possibly lacking in any value to the actual issue presented here.

Hence the spoiler.

First, I recall trying to roleplay some sort of horror at the chaplain's mangled face and whatnot, but everything happened out of the blue -as far as I am concerned, since I had just spawned- and way too quick. Suddenly, there was lots of red text and security and action, next minute, everybody was gone and I found myself in an empty hallway. At that point, I decided to just f*ck it and log off.

I don't know what exactly happened at the bar, but from my perspective, it was a plain chucklefuckery - and having seen a lot of that lately (genetically altered people throwing lockers about for no reason whatsoever, waifu's spacing themselves, engineers spacing themselves /and/ abusing the comms, people stealing books out of the print - lots of absolutely pointless and disheartening shit), I just couldn't be bothered to care. And I don't think that any less of an issue than the chaiRP obsession.

So I was on my way to cryo and just happened to run into Vira and Phoebe, and overall I'd like to think that I've learned to do a damn good job of keeping Daniela the hell away from any sort of romance, and neither was this the case of forcing "serious RP" over actual happening on the station - the whole sitting was fairly ridiculous, and revolved around various ways of saying "well, this stuff that's going on, that's pretty damn dumb" - after all, the happening was over. Haruspex and the screaming disappeared as fast as they appeared.

But overall my point would be, one can be greeted with metal bats and gory bits of the crew only so many times.

I figured out that the scene was likely very amusing to those involved and didn't complain about it, and would have expected about the same in return.

You have your fun, I have mine.

And, you have to admit, there's not much a bystanding character like Baranova could do to join in the "fun" than give you the satisfaction of properly roleplaying a response to the pain inflicted, which I agree I should have by all means done - but then, you weren't around anymore, and I didn't wish to be, either.

Shortly, my acts were detrimental to the game and I can see that in hindsight and I'm sorry if it ruined your immersions, but at times, it's really hard to tell actual roleplay from people being silly and just having a blast. My judgement of the situation was lousy - but I would like to think that it is not in line with the behaviour you are making a stand against with this thread.

 

Now, to your specific points;

1. Actual character and roleplay feedback is almost entirely unheard of.

I beg different. Actually, looking back, most of my interaction with other players involves reflecting on each other's characters, and I think the exchange usually benefits both sides and manages to go without anyone's pride getting hurt.

It might be worth pointing out, though, that these interactions do happen between four eyes, meaning

A) nobody at their best will can take the criticism for public shaming, or feel a shame in response as they possibly would should exactly the same words be uttered publicly

B) the criticising side themselves don't put their reputation at a line while speaking their mind (not unlike the time I deleted my post out of fear of coming across as too harsh or downright mean)

C) it can be assumed that both participants in such a discussion hold each other in some respect at least, so there are much better odds of them taking the criticism to heart instead of just dismissing it as "haters gonna hate"

Tl;dr - I'd say the issue is not with feedback, as rather with feedback threads

 

2. People force Chairp, character drama and relationships in increasingly invasive and obsessive ways.

Now, I haven't been around much and maybe I am missing out on a lot of it - but my impression is that our ways have very much improved from the days when the whole station would divide into pairs and each would sit in their little corner, not talking to anybody.

In fact, apart from the whole McGrath/Kirenza business, I don't recall any couple that would force their romance on anybody, or present an obstacle to others' game.

As for people forcing Chairp (a term which I might not be comprehending properly) - I get the feeling the opposite was the issue about the time I was last truly active around here, that is, everybody was complaining of people forcing shootouts on others, leaving nobody no room to just sit and have an actual RP.

I am going to trace a bit back to the defensive part of my post, but there are characters aboard that get absolutely nothing out of hostile situations. In fact, I would say that goes for most of the crew, excluding some of the louder security officers, perhaps really aggressive medical personnel, and the antags themselves.

I've come to terms with this and consider the current balance between steadier and all-out rounds fair, and simply choose not to participate in the latter because there is literally nothing for me to do. If I were to insist on actively participating in the round, I would either have to resign myself to playing audience/cannon fodder to the clashing factions' drama, or force myself into the happening at the cost of sacrificing a great deal of consistency and integrity.

Perhaps that is just my problem, but I'm throwing it out there because I'm fairly confident that there are a lot of people hereabout for whom the code blue means end of any and all fun.

Subtext being, I don't see how that is different from forced chairp - in both cases, there is a smaller or larger group of people who will never be given any true chance at actively participating, and are expected to be reactionary characters emphasizing the importance of whatever the current action hero has going on.

 

3. Hermits.

Now I don't mean to detract (is that the word?) your point here

but

People have been discussing this as far as I can remember, and I am not even going to waste breath repeating the points made in the past.

Yes, people sit and expect roleplay to happen, moreover, people have a very specific idea of what kind of RP they want and turn down all else.

To word it differently, people are being people.

If your best solution to an issue is "Everybody else must go deep into themselves and change their behaviour", then your solution is absolutely useless.

If you are truly so bothered by it, you are free to go and be an example to them, or to resign on your idea of what Aurora's players should be like and just enjoy whatever there is to enjoy, or simply to walk away.

Please, don't take this the wrong way, but regardless of how true are your points and how brilliant your argumentation, you can't change people.

Just have a look at our history.

Uh.

Reading on through your post, I feel this is all there is to say, really.

Your observation and analysis of The things preventing us from having nice things is possibly the most thorough and best worded I have ever seen around here, and your ideal state of affairs around Aurora is hard not to fall in love with.

But

your solution remains a change of heart in the players. Not going to happen.

Nope.

[Tainavaa]

Aside from the metafriendships that Invy is talking about (which I myself find annoying), I'm going to say what I've been saying for a while. And this is basically a reflection of what Rechkalov just said.

You can't change people. People only change when they want to change.

We can't have nice things because people don't want nice things, is basically what I'm saying here.

[mrimatool]

Lol, losers.

[nanotoxin]

Lol, losers.

I'm not sure if he's being ironic, or living up to his username...

[Guest]

Zip.

Edited June 21, 2015 by Guest

[Rechkalov]

Stuff

 

Now you're just being mean.

I am very much interested in the lore, and I have tried my pathetic best at expanding it. I've also been great Vaurca enthusiast and have high hopes for roleplaying a bug character - one I would enjoy way more than continually playing Baranova. Whom I had attempted to leave on numerous occasions and trade her for Andrew Stockstill, but other players seemed to consider her an enjoyable character and urged me to bring her back.

Admittedly, my great passion is psychology and related fields, rather than IPC and robots and lazerguns, but although not necessarily a sci-fi theme, it would seem that (judging by people's comments) I've done fairly well in making that -otherwise overlooked- field fun for others, and I have actively tried to relate it to the science-fiction bits of the game and superimpose the two (analysing AIs and androids, attempting to get a bunch of androids and roboticists together and create artificial life form - and the bad stuff, too, as proven by my attempts to give satisfactory IC explanation for all the griefers and the like).

While I can't claim to have hit many people with metallic bats, I like to think that I do my part in eliminating the issue you are bringing forth here; which consists by a large part of people considering themselves main characters and forcing their drama on others.

You may not see me in the bar or the library chatting up engineers, but anyone who's ever been trouble and/or annoying at the station had spent considerable time in Dan's office where I would listen to their crap often for several hours (ponder this; several hours of the stuff that makes you angry just when you catch a glimpse of it over the comms), all the while trying to come up with an IC psychological approach that would help them become more enjoyable -and hence less frustrated- players, juggling IC and OOC matters both in one go.

There are many people aboard the station who want to be paid attention to and are genuinely disheartened and feeling neglected -some of them very decent and well-known players; they know who they are- and that's where Dan comes in.

It's not always a fun role. In fact, it rarely is. I don't really get to play much, overall. But I find my joy in seeing those people feel and perhaps even act better at later dates. You find your in bashing people with a bat. It's a matter of taste.

And yes, since I don't really get to RP at all, mostly being just an active listener - I did do some incredibly stupid things when my character was occasionally put into the spotlight. But that was quite a while ago, mind you, and I remember only one occasion at which it was blown into such a proportion as to bother any other players.

Hey, a challenge; define Dan's character. There isn't much to say, because for most of the time, she is listening - spending time with the people you judge in your thread and trying to find a way to them, since usually (see McGrath's example, for one) they are themselves personally distressed by the state of affairs and the compromise between their characters and the general Aurora feel would much benefit both sides.

While you expect people to read your thread and feel bad and become your ideal of a player, I would like to think that I am actively trying to connect with each and every one of these people.

In fact- come on. You tried to RP with Dan recently, the horror stories trade. You recall how awful often I had to run away - precisely to deal with the people who upset you so.

And, the statement that got you so upset was pretty much my conclusion after doing this for several months; you can't change people, not all of them, not ever.

Doesn't mean we should stop trying per se.

But our personal pissing contest aside; there is a point I've been trying to get across for a while on different occasions and I'm going to try it again; this, what we do here, is a game.

The point of every game is to have fun.

If you are not having fun (and get so frustrated as to make threads, and get angry when those threads don't magically bring about the change you dream about) , then you would be wise to stop playing the game for a while and seek fun elsewhere.

If a game which you come to to have fun leaves you upset, then you have a problem. Not the game.

[Rechkalov]

I got more defensive here than I would have liked, but the point remains; I enjoy people. You enjoy science-fiction lore, or so you claim. Some people enjoy running around and yelling, and some enjoy constructing bombs and teleporting them to the HoP's office.

All of our kinds and many more will always be around, and unless you're proposing actual banning of everybody who doesn't live up to your standards - which, upon closer inspection, would leave a group of very few, since everybody here had a dumb phase at some point- you will just have to learn to simply enjoy your thing and don't take the others too much to heart.

Like most of us here did.

Because, at the end of the day, it is just a game and absolutely not worth getting distressed about.

[Crescentise]

It keeps happening. Person A criticises Person B for doing something they don't like. Person B goes "Oh yeah? Well here's all this likeable stuff that I do!" and completely ignores what they're being criticised for. It happened with Xander. Someone was all: Xander, I don't like how your characters are all the same. Xander responded by making a thread trying to prove how brave and cool and likeable they were, while ending up highlighting some very prominent similarities between them, i.e. the original problem. It's happening here. Rech, Inverted knows you're good at being a psych. That's not the issue. Address the intrusive lesbianism surrounding Baranova. I myself recall her involved in a literal SSL (Suicidal Space Lesbian) incident...

[Tainavaa]

We don't talk about that anymore. Those were dark times.

[Rechkalov]

That happened a long, long time ago, and it was a single incident. Unless of course you want to go REALLY far back to detective Daniela Marx spacing herself and stuffing people into disposals and... all the other I'm-new-to-this shit I am not proud of.

Claiming that Baranova and my gameplay consists solely of space lesbian shit is far fetched and yes, I did spring like a devil out of the box; I have admitted that already.

But I wasn't trying to prove that I do good stuff, too, on top of that one really strange week or a fortnight - I was trying to point out that the very issue Invy is addressing is an issue that is the very centerpoint of gameplay as a shrink, and using all the experience in that role as a further proof for the one argument I had to make and keep making over and over - you can't change people. You would do well not to let yourself be upset about them.

Because in the end, griefers, robusters and ERPers all have fun, and you don't - you lose, they we win.

Sure, I can totally see how that attempt would be easily looked over, since my mindset kept switching between trying to make that point and trying to defend myself against the allegation that my logging into the game once in every two or three weeks makes me the main villain of whatever is upsetting Invy.

[Rechkalov]

Okay.

This was initially not about Dan. My defense of Dan came later as well.

This was about becoming a tru HRP server - how many attempts at that have we seen? - and I have responded to that in what I think is a reasonable manner and a friendly, if not good advice.

Upon that, Invy turned 360°degrees from

because I thought very highly of Rechkalov

to

I intend to continiously criticize you for trying to push your immersion breaking fetish in the middle of my space station game

. Make of that what you will.

Finally - gaming is, in most cases, an escape from reality. We play because our lives suck. Our very presence in the game can be interpreted as avoiding some sort of real life crisis/vacuum/responsibility/whatever, you name it.

Apply similar logic to what's happening here; if you are upset with the game, find an escape.

Life won't change and game won't change and everytime you get pissed off, you lose.

So yeah. I lost. A bummer. Cya.

[Guest]

...But. Turning 360 degrees is.

uh.

yeah.

[Rechkalov]

OH NO I DIDN'T-

[Doomberg]

Alright. Since nowadays we have a propensity of discussing things of this sort using copious amounts of witty internet humor/urbandictionary language/image macros/whatever else, let me pitch in by concisely summarizing my stance on this matter.

You are describing a multitude of issues, some valid, others which are (in my opinion) only issues for you and certain other people. These issues will never be solved by large walls of text with whatever measure of popular backing. These issues are solved in time, as the server and community evolve and adapt. Light as many fires as you desire, I can almost guarantee you they will change very little in the long term. Regardless, this is not what I'm here to post about. I'm far more concerned about the singular issue prevalently present in this thread - namely, that of how you think people should RP, and the means through which you are attempting to make them RP the way you and a select group of people want them to.

No one has, or will ever have, an obligation to acknowledge you ICly, interact with you ICly, or act the way you want them to ICly. This will not change. It is not a change you, or anyone, can ever make, no matter how much hell you try raising. As long as players are adhering to our already-established rules of conduct and general standards, they can RP whatever sort of characters they please, in whatever fashion they please. Push as hard as you can, you are more than likely to be pushed back ten fold. But that isn't the problem here - the problem starts with you and others publicly calling out and attempting to shame whoever you deem to be RPing in an unsatisfactory fashion. Do not try to hide behind a guise of criticism, because it has gone far, far beyond that. And the moment that gets out of hand - which it is dangerously close to doing - I will see to it that this mess is curbstomped.

Good day.

[Skull132]

To shed light from another angle onto Doomberg's post, here's what we don't want happening: the weaponization of the thread and its ideas against individuals with differing views and approaches. The unfortunate fact is that this has already happened. There is a very clear line between objective criticism based on a period of observation and notation, and trying to get at someone's throat because they dared do something that doesn't seem right to you.

One is a positive experience to both parties, hopefully.

The second is, more often than not, a misguided ploy that ends up looking more and more akin to a witch hunt.

And let's talk about the latter. Witch hunts, the ones that I've seen, only work when two conditions are met:

• They are executed by a higher power;
• Said higher power actually has a crystal clear vision, and the ability to adhere to it.

 

And the end result is a very singular environment. Which by definition is counterproductive to a roleplay setting.

[Guest]

Zip.

Edited June 21, 2015 by Guest

[Skull132]

Don't go hyperbolic on me, please.

I never raised into question the feedback thread, that is fine.

I did not personally address you, my post should serve as a notice on how to not take things too far.

What is "Too far"? Literally ripping into someone's throat because you saw them do something you did not like, and then using this as a guise to justify it. There is no witchhunting that -- it happened, logs exist, etcetera.

[Rechkalov]

Would you be so kind and quote the entire part from which you keep pointing out one line and using it as a direct attack on your person and an excuse to assault my being coming off an incident that happened in the december - that is, more than six fucking month ago? (see the date of my Golden Seed post, during which Dan was already off the game)

 

Now I don't mean to detract (is that the word?) your point here

but

People have been discussing this as far as I can remember, and I am not even going to waste breath repeating the points made in the past.

Yes, people sit and expect roleplay to happen, moreover, people have a very specific idea of what kind of RP they want and turn down all else.

To word it differently, people are being people.

If your best solution to an issue is "Everybody else must go deep into themselves and change their behaviour", then your solution is absolutely useless.

If you are truly so bothered by it, you are free to go and be an example to them, or to resign on your idea of what Aurora's players should be like and just enjoy whatever there is to enjoy, or simply to walk away.

Please, don't take this the wrong way, but regardless of how true are your points and how brilliant your argumentation, you can't change people.

Just have a look at our history.

 

While discussion is nice, and honesty is nice, so is civility.

Not once from the SSL incident, which was intended to kill off Dan for good and be a definitive end to the ridiculous relationship-thing that happened there, have I strayed from focusing on my character's job and nothing else.

Anyhow, you're taking this far beyond the level of improving the quality of roleplay.

I am surprised at the hostility, since I've never had any issues with you personally - or interacted with you beyond mere greetings, and your accusations are based on things that are literally so 2014.

Now if you'll excuse me, I'll take my own advice and fuck the hell away and do something pleasant instead.

Perhaps I'll draw a couple of lesbians?

[Doomberg]

I have a million dollar bill. You can insist it's counterfeit, but I still don't need nor want your change. Your intentions are irrelevant. When you're causing damage or directly attacking people, you need to stop, no matter how good you or others may think the cause is.

Furthermore:

 

And the only people completely unwilling to encourage or even consider positive change as an option seem to be the server administration.

 

"Positive change" in your own opinion. Whether you like it or not, standards are for the administration to set, not you. This is not a democracy, despite what people would like to think.