Unathi and Security

[Jboy2000000]

Unathi are supposed to be warriors that are harder than the other races to subdue, which is why they are popular for putting into security and why you should be leery about getting into a fight with them.

 

So, having super ultra cool warrior people that can do anything and everything better in fight than any other race in the game in every single way possible playing security indiscriminately is fine, and not powergaming or unfair at all? But one of the biggest player V. Mods and Devs headbutts Ive ever seen was about how taking one single hardsuit out of EVA was to powergamey and made the game unfair for antags.

 

A couple of quotes from a thread I made about Unathi and Tajarans. The point I want to bring, and the point that got ignored by everyone who was arguing for not buffing Unathi, is the quote from myself. Unathi, the ultimate in space hardasses, that best fighters ever, I would guess, that can tank and kill every other race in the game in one of one combat. The killers, the dominaters. And they can play into the station security role, and there is absolutely no bar for this, and its a norm, and no one sees that, in anyway, as unfair?

And Ill quote Jackbot a second time here "which is why they are popular for putting into security." So, the fact that people make Unathi, these super warriors, just to smack them into security, where you fight and arrest antags the most, is fine? There are no balance issues at all? This is completely fair for antags?

[Frances]

I don't think people make Unathis to powergame into sec. I think people make Unathis because they have fun, proud and confrontational personalities which make them good as "muscle" characters. And in the (limited) SS13 universe we have, these characters fit best into sec.

IIRC Unathis have two mechanical advantages. They can break cuffs, and have bonus unarmed damage due to claws. Neither of those things should come into play as a security officer, seeing as 1. you should not be in cuffs if you're playing sec right and 2. sec already has weapons that are all-around better than claws.

[Alberyk]

If you are worried about people using another races to powergame at sec, you should worry about ipcs, since they have far more advantages than an unathi, and what Frances said, there is nothing you can really use on unathi that is really useful as an officer.

Ipcs feel no pain, take less damage from brute, can be only stunned by the stun baton at all, are immune to radiation, chems and among other things.

Also, unathi at security is the same thing as having skrell working at research or medical, it can be traced to their respective cultures.

[Jboy2000000]

IIRC Unathis have two mechanical advantages. They can break cuffs, and have bonus unarmed damage due to claws. Neither of those things should come into play as a security officer, seeing as 1. you should not be in cuffs if you're playing sec right and 2. sec already has weapons that are all-around better than claws.

 

They are also more resistant to stuns, and can eat monkeys whole, killing them, wholely and completely. So, they're buffed against antags with stun weapons, and have all the power to completely and permanently kill lings. And the break cuffs an unarmed damage are not irrelevant if they're playing security, no matter how buffed they are, it is still possible for them to be taken down by other means. The problem isn't nullified because "there are other things." The problem is, that Unathi are better and stronger, and have many more advantages than any other race in the game, and zero disadvantages.

 

If you are worried about people using another races to powergame at sec, you should worry about ipcs, since they have far more advantages than an unathi

 

Except IPC's are insta-kiled by EMP's, an item which can be bought directly by traitors, can't wear hardsuits unless they also make/find special suit cooling units, and are completely unable to heal themselves. They have something to give balance to the race.

 

Also, unathi at security is the same thing as having skrell working at research or medical, it can be traced to their respective cultures.

 

I also feel that this is untrue. Its always been said Unathi are war-like creatures, not "secure-like" creatures. They formed a combine civilization by dominating it all. And then there was the Contact War, if Unathi heritage consisted of a heritage that would rather protect over produce war, there would not have been a "Contact War."

[Guest]

can eat monkeys whole, killing them, wholely and completely. So, they're buffed against antags with stun weapons, and have all the power to completely and permanently kill lings.

I'll just say, an admin once saw an Unathi do that, found out the ling transformed into a human inside the Unathi, so we gibbed the Unathi and teleported the ling out, as that is what would happen in that case.

I don't want to be forced to make that mechanically happen by code as the idea of eating something you know changes shape is really silly, and doing that in public should be considered rude.

[Alberyk]

I don't really think they are more resistants to stun, anyhow, since all traitor stun weapons are instant stuns like the stun prods, magic missiles, ling stings, vampire glare, which seems to affect any unathi in the same amount as other races. By the way, I would like some coder's word about the stun thing, which I believe that is untrue.

Also, what scope said about the lings monkeys. And not all traitors have access to emps or are just going to spend four telecrystals to deal with one security officer, And they can heal themself with nanopaste anyway. Most traitor weapons will deal brute damage (revolver, e-swords, cult swords and etc). You can just murder an unathi in the same way as another race, they don't take less or more damage from anything, shoting them with guns will do the same, unlike ipcs and diona which are far more resistant.

[Jboy2000000]

And they can heal themself with nanopaste anyway.

 

Well thats something I didn't know, one for the notes, but where do you find Nanopaste? Only one, as far as IVe ever seen, spawns on station. And thats in medical, in surgery. Other med supplies are easily available and plenty in number, medical doctors spawn with high brow versions of medical items, so theres plenty of those, and two medkits spawn at the start of the game completely stocked with medical items, and there are 4-5 vendors in medbay that spit out medical supplies for free, and I believe there are four for every vendor, so thats, in total, if my estimates and facts are correct, thats 20, multi-use healing items, that can be given to non-IPC's, to heal themselves. Where as, only one healing item for IPCs to use. On the whole station, and to make any more, you have to spend metal and glass in science, after reaching an appropriate level of science.

[Guest]

/datum/species/unathi
name = "Unathi"
name_plural = "Unathi"
icobase = 'icons/mob/human_races/r_lizard.dmi'
deform = 'icons/mob/human_races/r_def_lizard.dmi'
language = "Sinta'unathi"
tail = "sogtail"
unarmed_type = /datum/unarmed_attack/claws
secondary_unarmed_type = /datum/unarmed_attack/bite/strong
primitive = /mob/living/carbon/monkey/unathi
darksight = 3
gluttonous = 1

cold_level_1 = 280 //Default 260 - Lower is better
cold_level_2 = 220 //Default 200
cold_level_3 = 130 //Default 120

heat_level_1 = 420 //Default 360 - Higher is better
heat_level_2 = 480 //Default 400
heat_level_3 = 1100 //Default 1000

flags = IS_WHITELISTED | HAS_LIPS | HAS_UNDERWEAR | HAS_SKIN_COLOR

 

referencing code/modules/mob/living/carbon/human/species.dm

As shown in the code, the only adjustments made to Unathi in terms of vars are slight changes to darksight, 'gluttonous', which allows them to devour monkeys, and body temp-related things.

They are not resistant to stuns nor do they get up faster from stuns. Firstly, siemens_coefficient was broken to begin with, and secondly, even if they did have that, it would be shown here. They get up just as fast from stuns/crit as humans do and they die just as easily as humans do.

[Frances]

IIRC Unathis have twoI also feel that this is untrue. Its always been said Unathi are war-like creatures, not "secure-like" creatures. They formed a combine civilization by dominating it all. And then there was the Contact War, if Unathi heritage consisted of a heritage that would rather protect over produce war, there would not have been a "Contact War."

Just to elaborate a little on that point, Unathis are seen as brutish. So them being hired muscle fits the description. They wouldn't be renowned problem solvers, but they'd be very good at defending assets, securing restricted areas, and breaking up your occasional bar brawl (all of which are things NT would use station sec for).

Also some people seem to view Aurorasec as a semi-serious militia, so hiring "strong" aliens fits that mindset.

[Jboy2000000]

Seen as is not is. Its been said time and time again, Aurora security shouldn't be muscle heads, they're here to uphold and protect regs and space law, thats why the preset security office skill set has "Space Law" set to professional.

[mrimatool]

Diona. That is all.

[Frances]

Aurora security shouldn't be muscle heads

That's the OOC philosophy. I feel like people should be able to assign pretty much whatever flavor they want to that ICly (including some minor "thuggish/brawny" characters, as long as they add to the fun and don't abuse it).

We do have some problems with certain members of sec being too confrontational, but them being of any specific race has nothing to do with it. I thought this thread was directed at Unathi game mechanics, anyway?

[Filthyfrankster]

N-not like people use unathi security as an excuse to beat up prisoners/harmbaton people/slam their heads against walls and getting prisoners sent to medical just because they were stupid enough to walk into a cell with a harmful prisoner without popping the flash and getting upset when said prisoner wants to fight them.

Just because of 'm-muh honor'

Anyway, There's no reason why security unathi should be cuffed (Unless they're being detained for putting a prisoner in crit or they're taken hostage.)

[Guest]

There are no balance issues at all? This is completely fair for antags?

 

I would like to say that I've never had issues fighting Unathi as an antagonist. Maybe it's just because I'm a shitty powergamer and I know these mechanics by heart, but no one is invincible. Everyone is robustable, you just have to try approaching it differently.

It's not really a gameplay balance issue nor is it much of an immersion issue either tbh

[Jboy2000000]

Anyway, There's no reason why security unathi should be cuffed (Unless they're being detained for putting a prisoner in crit

 

Which Ive seen happen over five times in a single round.

[Guest Menown]

Jboy, I'm assuming you're talking about the incident after this was implemented. I had admin permission to be a shitler that round so that we could see how the cuff breaking works.

Using an incident that has occured in over how many months(?) is a bit of a stretch for this.

[Jboy2000000]

Im talking about one that happened the other day

[Alberyk]

Im talking about one that happened the other day

 

If you mean cult Yinzr, it was impossible to cuff him, because he was missing his left hand. Also he was antag, not really security.

[Filthyfrankster]

Also not to mention unathi still have their limits, you can easily counter them and the OP 5 second cuff breaking by simply PULLING them with you, bucklecuffing them to a bed or a chair, or in Yinzr's case with the one hand shit, straight jacket them. (Judging by SoP and space law/etc) Straight jacketing a possible dangerous person with one hand since cuffs are shit is pretty aight

[Guest Marlon Phoenix]

Mechanically:

Unathi aren't super bad-asses. I was being idealistic about what I'd like to see from them. Once you get them in cuffs (after instantly stunning them with your stunstick) as long as you keep pulling them whenever they're being a little shit and trying to break the cuffs they're just as helpless as any other mob. If you can't beat a Unathi in battle then idk man, get good?

Lore-wise:

Unathi are supposed to be all bout dat honour.

 

It's dishonourable to beat prisoners.

It's dishonourable to defy your legitimate superiors.

It's honourable to keep a good name for your comrades and yourselves.

Your ancestors will bitch at the shaman's about all this, who will in turn bitch at you about life lessons.

It's okay to violate the general ideas about being a good Unathi; of course it has to be in temperance and with an acceptance that it will carry IC consequences. Someone just running around and harmbattoning everything for the Hisssssmother will need to be given a talking to about whitelist expectations.

In all though, I actually really like this recent trend of Unathi players. The shift in their playstyle is once I have noticed and approve of, questionable exceptions notwithstanding.

[AllIgotisalousyname]

It's dishonourable to beat prisoners.

It's dishonourable to defy your legitimate superiors.

It's honourable to keep a good name for your comrades and yourselves.

Your ancestors will bitch at the shaman's about all this, who will in turn bitch at you about life lessons.

 

I agree with Jackboot's idea here. Thrashing about a man in chains because he said "lol ur mom" isn't very honorable, you'd think that a culture that thinks and or knows themselves to be strong and warlike would be above some smaller, weaker human who has ALREADY LIKELY LOST to them in a physical confrontation would be a bit beneath them.

Of course we would have the unathis that do go apeshit and start reading the poor sap's last will and testament for him because they ARE very overzealous, but those should be the exception, and from what I see and hear, they're really not.

And on a different note, I do think this is a good point to kinda bring up the fact of adding stats/attributes. As of now, Unathi are universally 'better' than human characters. While you can say the buffs and benefits aren't THAT beneficial, they are still benefits over having a human player. I think we need to incorporate things like size, weight, strength, etc, into actual hard-coded character attributes, so a taller and heavier human could likely have a very effective edge over a smaller unathi. But, that's really hypothetical, as it'd be a PITA to code.