Apartment Server Ban - My Grievances

[Chaznoodles]

The issue now is people trying to brush this under the carpet. This has happened with the majority of issues before, causing them to be left and locked without resolution. When issues are then brought up, it's stated that 'people wanted to move on so we moved on, don't bring it up'.

Don't leave this issue to get brushed under too. Show more care than that. Work for a better community, don't let it fester.

[Frances]

Well, the issue's a different one now - namely, banning/punishing people for displaying certain attitudes on the forums.

You're all free to debate it if you want (though I'd create a new thread). But it's not mine to fight.

[Guest]

The issue now is people trying to brush this under the carpet. This has happened with the majority of issues before, causing them to be left and locked without resolution. When issues are then brought up, it's stated that 'people wanted to move on so we moved on, don't bring it up'.

Don't leave this issue to get brushed under too. Show more care than that. Work for a better community, don't let it fester.

What do you think everyone is trying to do?

We're not 'brushing it under the carpet.' We're acknowledging this isn't something that should be repeated. This is something we should look forward to avoid. You let it fester more by bringing it up at every opportunity to deter any level of progress.

And that, friend, is how you deter progress. It's extremely demoralizing for the state of the community to be discussing how issues X, Y, and Z are so awful for the community and that nothing can be done about it, and that the general scope of the server is a sinking ship.

In short. It's not helping.

[Frances]

And that, friend, is how you deter progress. It's extremely demoralizing for the state of the community to be discussing how issues X, Y, and Z are so awful for the community and that nothing can be done about it, and that the general scope of the server is a sinking ship.

Except that's not what's being done here.

A lot of people like to act like armchair generals (in this case, speculating about hypothetical changes rather than looking for concrete solutions), but you're far more one of them than Chaz is.

Sorry if this counts as a personal attack. I don't really know what else to say.

/Also/, if you want to bring change, join the staff. Mod applications are open. If you can demonstrate you're reasonable and level-headed, you'll make it in. This goes for everyone.

[Guest]

But I'm here to play a game, not here to play armchair general.

I don't really know what else to say either. You were accepted as a DO just a couple weeks ago, and you claimed to have solutions for all of our problems yourself, only to be met with a sudden spurt of inactivity. And then you announced leaving, permanently. Like... what? Wouldn't that count as being an armchair general? You didn't do a thing.

I can't help but think we're all hypocrites here and that none of us should be taken seriously anymore. Because, look at it like this.

Ultimately, you're wrong. Ultimately, I'm wrong. There is no right decision or course of action that can be taken from this series of unfortunate events besides dismissing it as a current issue. The ship has sailed, there is nothing else that can be done in good faith. It's over. But it's not over for a bunch of people who still want to play a game.

And I'm going to play a game, ya dig?

[Frances]

I don't really know what else to say either. You were accepted as a DO just a couple weeks ago, and you claimed to have solutions for all of our problems yourself, only to be met with a sudden spurt of inactivity. And then you announced leaving, permanently. Like... what? Wouldn't that count as being an armchair general? You didn't do a thing.

I actually never fully committed to joining as a DO. I considered the idea, fully knowing I might not be able to commit to it, and Hartburry added me in the chat regardless, while giving me some time to mull over the decision. He also brought up a few issues to me, which I would've liked to help with, and started discussing solutions for (including the DO offices I mapped and should be handing to Skull). I never claimed to "personally have solutions for all of your problems" nor did I announce leaving permanently (I politely informed the chat I likely wouldn't be able to help). You seem misinformed on this situation.

As for what I meant by armchair generals, I think a few months ago, when you submitted a mod app, I pointed out I saw you rely on your words a lot to cover yourself (to make promises, apologies, etc.), and that it made me reluctant to endorse you as you rarely backed up these words. Words can achieve something (we've got admins to reconsider their actions in the apartment server case by making a thread), but they're not the be-all end-all to solving all of our problems.

Chaz is simply pushing people to contribute to finding solutions to one of the community's problems, while you're berating him for that for... I'm not really sure why (despite having read your explanation). You've also come into the thread asking it to be locked for no discernible reason. There's not really any way to put it gently, but I think the advice I tried to give you a few months ago is something you've yet to heed.

 

Ultimately, you're wrong. Ultimately, I'm wrong. There is no right decision or course of action that can be taken from this series of unfortunate events besides dismissing it as a current issue. The ship has sailed, there is nothing else that can be done in good faith. It's over.

It's extremely demoralizing for the state of the community to be discussing how issues X, Y, and Z are so awful for the community and that nothing can be done about it, and that the general scope of the server is a sinking ship.

You've also managed to contradict yourself within the span of two posts, so, uh, gj.

[Guest]

I actually never fully committed to joining as a DO. I considered the idea, fully knowing I might not be able to commit to it, and Hartburry added me in the chat regardless, while giving me some time to mull over the decision. He also brought up a few issues to me, which I would've liked to help with, and started discussing solutions for (including the DO offices I mapped and should be handing to Skull). I never claimed to "personally have solutions for all of your problems" nor did I announce leaving permanently (I politely informed the chat I likely wouldn't be able to help). You seem misinformed on this situation.

 

There is such a thing as 'no', and I was within the belief you knew this. What Hartburry told the rest of us (as in, what he was told by you), gave us the impression you were going to help. Perhaps we misinterpreted, and that was our mistake.

 

As for what I meant by armchair generals, I think a few months ago, when you submitted a mod app, I pointed out I saw you rely on your words a lot to cover yourself (to make promises, apologies, etc.), and that it made me reluctant to endorse you as you rarely backed up these words. Words can achieve something (we've got admins to reconsider their actions in the apartment server case by making a thread), but they're not the be-all end-all to solving all of our problems.

 

And? Your mod app (from around the same timeframe, mind you) is about the same. What I was told from a few other people, perhaps we're not so different.

 

Chaz is simply pushing people to contribute to finding solutions to one of the community's problems, while you're berating him for that for... I'm not really sure why (despite having read your explanation). You've also come into the thread asking it to be locked for no discernible reason. There's not really any way to put it gently, but I think the advice I tried to give you a few months ago is something you've yet to heed.

 

I've a lot of respect for the guy, and I get that he was one of the old guard. The way the old guard ran things, to my impression, was so that everyone who was a part of it all could have fun. Including, but not limited to, throwing each other into the singularity for giggles, building fantastical things and creating memorable roleplay situations that others aren't soon to forget.

And no, I'm not berating him. Quit putting words into my mouth. You've no idea, no clue as to what went on between the involved parties. You are an outside third party pretending as though you understand the conflict between the actual participating parties in this little fire that was rising not a week or so ago. This is inherently foolish.

Do you know why I asked for this thread to be locked?

Because it devolved to worthless arguments, ad hominem, personal attacks and a complete lack of understanding of what prompted the issue to sprout up and then catch fire. Because I happen to know the facts, as to what did go on. But instead a thread went up throwing accusations and shit around.

This is the exact same conduct that got the administration in this little mess in the first place. At the time, they made a decision thinking that calling someone out publicly or making their ban just. Thrown out there in the blue, would be the right call.

And so it was shown that it wasn't. They admitted their fault. End of story there, right? The lesson being, you work behind the scenes. You don't engage people in politics. When you have a problem with something, you talk to the people involved.

But, hey, let's just throw more gasoline on the fire, instead of being civil and asking around as to what happened AND THEN posting a little silly 'observations' post. Perhaps sooner or later people will wonder why we would shoot a man before throwing him out of a plane.

 

Ultimately, you're wrong. Ultimately, I'm wrong. There is no right decision or course of action that can be taken from this series of unfortunate events besides dismissing it as a current issue. The ship has sailed, there is nothing else that can be done in good faith. It's over.

It's extremely demoralizing for the state of the community to be discussing how issues X, Y, and Z are so awful for the community and that nothing can be done about it, and that the general scope of the server is a sinking ship.

You've also managed to contradict yourself within the span of two posts, so, uh, gj.

 

How?

I literally just said. This entire situation is blown out of proportion and there is nothing further that can be done, EXCEPT. To not do it again.

Reading comprehension is a wonderful thing, if you're just willing to see it from a view different from your own.

Do you understand now, or do you have more questions? This might be best if it was taken to a private chat.

[Frances]

Well, I'm not really going to engage in pointless back and forth. I tried to say what I had to say, but I don't have the time nor the patience to set everything right with you. Take it as you will.

(And before you dismiss me as simply being wrong and unwilling to admit it, I'll highlight you're the first person on here I think I've had to walk out on so lmao)

[Johnny Mnemonic]

@ Delta

And no, I'm not berating him. Quit putting words into my mouth. You've no idea, no clue as to what went on between the involved parties.

Wow, Delta, says the pot to the kettle much? like, jeez, did your sense of irony die or so- This post perhaps has some irony behind it

 

You are an outside third party pretending as though you understand the conflict between the actual participating parties in this little fire that was rising not a week or so ago. This is inherently foolish.

w-what?

Oh, dear lord, WHAT?

Oh my god, Delta, what in the actual f*uck? YOU'RE A THIRD PARTY TOO. What sort of information do you posses that Frances doesn't have access too?! ok, i can see two responses, since the involved parties are the skype group i'm a part of and the staff (i'm excluding everyone else afflicted because Frances would fit inside them then). So you either got "super sekrit insider staff info" which i can assure you, isn't real because literally everything was said on the forums, or maybe in the brief time that you joined our group and talked shit about staff/becoming Aurora's god emperor you managed to glimpse at our sekrit ERP databases and have ben given major groundbreaking insight into the situation that Frances cannot attain. But neither of those are true. You are just so full of s*it that it's not even funny, i admit i have chuckled throughout this thread somewhat but this genuinly pissed me off. I strongly desire elaboration on this as it simply does not make sense to me as of yet, seeing as all information you might have would be accesible to Frances aswell, and you are not an involved party either.

The argument that Frances is a third party that has no clue as to what's actually happening, but you are is quite possibly the stupidest fucking thing i have read in all of these threads. Not only that but Frances actually went out of her way to talk to staff and Cassy and what not. Like, what drove you to type that, please for the love of christ tell me that was bad word choice before i get an aneurysm. Further, i would like it to be known Frances has tried to garner more information and it further solidifies my confusion as to what information that Frances doesn't you posses.

Because it devolved to worthless arguments, ad hominem, personal attacks and a complete lack of understanding of what prompted the issue to sprout up and then catch fire. Because I happen to know the facts, as to what did go on. But instead a thread went up throwing accusations and shit around.

Oh dear lord it's not a bad choice of words, oh dear lord, why even? Yes, good job, Delta, you know the facts, FUCKING EVERYONE KNOWS THE FACTS, IT'S LITERALLY ALL IN THE THREADS TOO, SOME PEOPLE HAPPEN TO DISAGREE WITH WHAT TRANSPIRED THOUGH, YOU FFFF-GRRRR. Maybe the accusations have some ground to them, maybe you should use that knowledge that you happen to own singularly to set things at ease in such case, and not ask for locking the thread every five minutes What makes the knowledge of facts somehow make what you say correct? Are you saying that,because you know what happened, you're in the right and the threads should close? Chaz's issue is the very personal reasons behind the ban being put in place, as opposed to Frances, who was concerned over the ERP sharing. It is still very hard to justify what the staff did as non metagrudge, for a number of factors, primarly being one of blaming Cassy for her militant attidude.

But I firmly believe i share her attitude by now, i can easily be called Militant in the eyes of the staff. Rec is at least 2 Cassy's by now. Chaz is, too.militant, in fact, is a title easy to attach to anyone with an argument. So, if bans are put in place for militant attitudes, then isn't this just gonna leave people with a server who just shove everything under the rug? Frances is out, I was never even in, the only person here still trying to make a difference is Chaz. So closing the discussion with Chaz would be much more productive then locking the fucking thread maybe.

Chaz is trying to help, and contrary to your belief, /no/, closing down a discussion is not how you solve anything. It's just annoying. You, and a bunch of others think that nothing more can be done on this issue, and you're ACTUALLY RIGHT. Nothing is gonna bring Cassy back. Now about such things happening in the future? That's what Chaz has a problem here. That's the thing you all seem to miss. That's also why he repeats that this should be resolved /now/. NOT CASSY'S CASE, THE CASE IN GENERAL. POINT HERE IS NOT TO MAKE CASSY COME BACK, IT'S FOR INEVITABLE SITUATIONS OF PEOPLE LIKE CASSY ON THE SERVER. It's not demorilizing to state problems, if such problems exist, because then you can fic problems, It baffles me this is a concept some people don't get.

Now, let's observe Chaz's original argument before you assholes individuals bombarded him with requests to lock everything ever.

 

In the current predicament, the only resolution I would personally see as acceptable would be an apology made by those responsible for the ban and defending it to apologise to Cassie and remove the ban, as well as taking a step back and analysing their own performances as staff members to see if they are suitable for the roles.

 

1)there was a psuedo apology

2)ban was removed

3)they evalueted themselves as staff members

The issue here is, this was all for how the ban was handed out and not really on how valid banning her was. Still, what are your problems with staff/community here exactly and what do you want to gain as of now anyway?

[Guest]

Awful shitposting is awful.

But, according to you, the fire still rises.

You've no further stake in this server, correct? Why do you even care anymore if you believe yourself so completely removed from Aurora?

[Frances]

Just pointing out that instead of writing up any kind of rebuttal, Delta resorted to pointing out that the person calling him out "shouldn't" be posting here due to some arbitrary technicality.

In all honesty, you should stop posting. You're just harming the thread at this point.

[Gollee]

For both sides.

 

 

I haven't posted on here yet, but now I am, primarily to tell Chaz, Delta and Johnny to stop making an ever-burning flame thread.

Admins have posted, ban is lifted, they have outright called it a mistake and apologised, they are looking over their actions and such.

Chaz, Johnny, This is pretty much your best case scenario, unless you want Skull and Doom to resign, which wouldn't be good.

Delta, as Frances said, this is now pointless back and forth, the goal of the thread was to bring the issues related to Cassie's ban up, and have an admin and community response; that's been done.

If we are having to look at topics like Frances and Delta's moderator applications, then this thread is significantly off-topic, and there likely isn't anything new to add, Skull has pointed out every one of the administrative mistakes in a post back on page 8, and apologised for them. I honestly don't know what you three want anymore, there isn't anything more to get.

 

[Frances]

Yeah, I pretty much think that if anyone wants to discuss the newest issues Skull's response has raised, they should make a new thread.

[Guest]

For the sake of organization and humoring people, well.

What do you think about this, then?

[swat43]

you know.. just to be honest, i don't even bother reading as you what you all are writing at this point. I am sorry, but this is true, i doubt that most people will do, because they know this place is nothing but another crater getting deeper that no one will even care when it will end get such. As i said before, all what you're doing people is barking for no profit nor gain. So stop.. Just please, stop this nonsense, don't give me migraine and yourselves, and lock this bloody thread. Does this tell me, if i don't want to get involved, yes, but fucking hell, can we grow up?

[Skull132]

I'm sorry, what am I trying to brush under the carpet? I've been nothing but cordial, honest and to the point in my replies, and at this point, it really seems like you're pulling me towards the line of, "We demand an apology for you having a personal opinion that we do not agree with!"

Okay. I don't go around asking people for that. I mean, I could. I very much could, but I don't. So how about we cut that here?

If you wish me to explain the actual intricacies of managing leadership and personal opinions, then how about we look at the Covert situation? I held, way before December and his deadminning, a very clear and negative disposition towards the man. Because of this, in recognition of the fact that personal opinion shifts a human's focus (easiest demonstration: if you fall in love with someone, you focus on all of the positives that they have, as a person. Even to the point of molding some negative quirks into positive or "cute" ones), I raised my bar for evidence required to take harsh action, and deferred my judgement to my Head Administrator. At the time, we decided to simply demote him from Primary to Secondary Admin (we had 3 tiers, back then, not 2). Had I pushed harder, we could have probably ended up with him gone from staff before the incident with Hivefleet happened.

Damned if you do, damned if you don't, huh? And it's a fun minefield which I would love to see any of you, who are willing to speak on the subject, walk.

And, let's actually latch onto the word "minefield". And let's defer to mathematics, more accurately, the theory of probability. We'll call every administrative decision an event. Every single event in our problem has a chance of failure, no matter how simple. As time passes, and as these events keep happening (as administrative decisions are made), the cumulative probability of a negative outcome appearing will approach 1. And eventually, poof, we have this.

If you gentlemen imagine that a proper administrative team works without making mistakes, then you happen to be an idealist. Unfortunately, we do not live in an ideal world. We have our ways of managing these issues, and we will make sure that they do not repeat. If you do wish to hold us to the magical standard of "No mistakes ever, yay", then we will disappoint you.

I also suggest that you read the following posts, as they actually provide perspective that a lot of you seem to be lacking: http://aurorastation.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=3137&start=120#p31411

I will now be closing this thread, and quoting Gollee on the reason why.

For both sides.

 

 

I haven't posted on here yet, but now I am, primarily to tell Chaz, Delta and Johnny to stop making an ever-burning flame thread.

Admins have posted, ban is lifted, they have outright called it a mistake and apologised, they are looking over their actions and such.

Chaz, Johnny, This is pretty much your best case scenario, unless you want Skull and Doom to resign, which wouldn't be good.

Delta, as Frances said, this is now pointless back and forth, the goal of the thread was to bring the issues related to Cassie's ban up, and have an admin and community response; that's been done.

If we are having to look at topics like Frances and Delta's moderator applications, then this thread is significantly off-topic, and there likely isn't anything new to add, Skull has pointed out every one of the administrative mistakes in a post back on page 8, and apologised for them. I honestly don't know what you three want anymore, there isn't anything more to get.