Disagreement and disrespect between KhalidtheGrey and Bakaga

[KhalidtheGrey]

BYOND Key: KhalidtheGrey

Staff BYOND Key: BakaGaijin

Reason for complaint: Disrespectful conduct

Evidence/logs/etc:

This was done amongst other log stuff but this is all that was relevant (in my opinion)

OOC: KhalidtheGrey: muh prayers!

OOC: Bakagaijin: Prayers are not a guarantee.

OOC: KhalidtheGrey: i know, but they worked

OOC: KhalidtheGrey: i got mah googles

OOC: Bakagaijin: No IC in OOC,

OOC: KhalidtheGrey: it was basically an OOC thing before it even started in-game, not to mention I'm supposed to have them as a default

OOC: KhalidtheGrey: ICly, i had them the whole time

OOC: Bakagaijin: Stop it.

OOC: KhalidtheGrey: i love when people attempt to end an argument with 'no' or 'stop it' or, my favorite, 'sht up'

You have been muted from OOC.

Primary Admin PM from-Bakagaijin: When I ask you to stop bragging or relaying stuff that you got ICly from prayers OOCly, you do so.

PM to-Bakagaijin: perhaps if you actually dealt with that with a response i could even begin to respect, i would have

PM to-Bakagaijin: respect is a two way street you know

PM to-Bakagaijin: ya know i didnt realize i was bragging, if you poitned that out, i'd have apologized

Primary Admin PM from-Bakagaijin: I asked you to stop, and you disrespected me by continuing. Because of this, I will keep you muted from OOC for the rest of the round.

PM to-Bakagaijin: You disrespected me as well, im not kidding, i was offended, what i was talking about had no impact or relevence to the round and you just said 'stop it' without any actual explaination beyond 'no IC in OOC' which is was not in the first place

Primary Admin PM from-Bakagaijin: I asked you to stop the first time and you continued. You get muted from OOC as a result. Next time when a staff member tells you to stop, you do so. End of discussion.

PM to-Bakagaijin: To the forums then

Additional remarks:

The item in question is 'scanning goggles' a custom item with no function. I use them as a fixture for my character (Kamdiere Shamshael, think Geordi Laforge). The item, so far as I am aware, can only be obtained if you spawn as a roboticst, which I normally am, however I was librarian this round due to robotics being full. I ahelped through prayer to receive the goggles which are in my load-out at all times. I received them before the start of the logs cited.

Here's my perspective on things, I spoke happily of receiving the item at the courtesy of the admins (no idea which one) which was an off-handed thank you. I was almost immediately told 'No IC in OOC.' and felt indignation in major part due to the fact that I was, in theory, supposed to have the item and it was basically a bug fix, not at all an IC matter and as far as in-game was concerned, I had them already from a role-playing perspective. I imagine the only grounds for this being a violation of the IC/OOC mix ban is because it happened this round and I mentioned it.

At this point the back and forth went off, I didn't come to this server or this game to get talked down to or punished for having my own voice or sense of dignity like I'm this guy's kid when I doubt they are even three years older than me. By all rights, equals. Not to mention, I, personally, absolutely hate and think very lowly of those who attempt to end a debate or argument with something akin to 'shut up' or 'end of discussion', I view it as childish to be perfectly honest, and we're too old to be acting as such, especially if either of us are in any sort of a position of power.

I will be the first to admit that I wasn't acting completely in the right, but I believe BakaGaijin behavior and how he handled the situation was disgraceful.

[TishinaStalker]

I mean, if you want to thank staff, then send a prayer or something saying "Thank you (deity of your choosing)!", but not an ahelp as ahelps are for serious things and not for jokes. The IC in OOC rule:

 

No IC in OOC - Avoid discussing events of the current round in OOC. Exceptions might apply for minor, funny events, but use common sense. Generally, don't.

 

Could it have been a minor, funny event? Sure, but staff told you to stop, and you wanted to continue. Coupled with that, if staff tell you to stop something, then you stop doing whatever that something is. Baka simply said "Stop it" after she said "No IC in OOC", and was enforcing a rule before you mocked her by saying that you love it when people end a conversation like that. I'm personally not seeing any issue with her behavior since you kept egging her on by trying to give her a lesson in respect for attempting to enforce a rule as an administrator.

[Frances]

Am I the only one who agrees that Baka acted kinda rudely?

I mean, yes, Khalid's very last OOC message was uncalled for, but do we really need to get onto a player's back because they thanked the admins in OOC for spawning them their custom item? That seems like the most inconsequential breach of IC in OOC there could be (and before you start claiming so, no, IC in OOC won't spiral out of control because of that).

I also think admins should be able to provide a brief explanation of why they're enforcing a rule before resorting to their shushing power.

[Guest Marlon Phoenix]

Everyone in the thread agrees that the OP did IC in OOC. It's not a question of the validity of the warning, it's a question on the tone of it. It was rather rude, and the situation came off as extremely dissatisfying for someone with no intention of being a butt.

[TishinaStalker]

I mean, I don't see it much as rude, but then again, I can be bad very bad at picking up tones. Now, the main thing I disagree with is muting from OOC for the round for that. Generally, muting for about 10 - 15 minutes is fine imo for first time, and if they continue, then you keep increasing the time until it gets to "for rest of the round".

[Contextual]

The long and short of the issue is that the player in question posted IC in OOC, was told to stop, and proceeded to get ornery and defensive. They belittled the admin for enforcing a very clear rule in a very concise manner, and so earned themselves a mute on the grounds of being a dick, argumentative, disrespectful, and as more of a footnote, posting IC in OOC. Multiple other players called them out on the fact that they were breaking rules by being argumentative during the event, as well, and yet they (as evident by the posted logs) continued to have an attitude.

Speaking directly to Khalid -- Age doesn't matter. If you think it does, you're just being incredibly vain. Mechanics do mechanic work, Accountants do accounting, IT does IT work, Administrators enforce rules. If you're about to start arguing that a programmer shouldn't 'talk down to you' (to give a similar analogy to this situation, "Don't press that button,") because you both may or may not be of similar age, then you're just being asinine and acting entitled.

[Frances]

The long and short of the issue is that the player in question posted IC in OOC, was told to stop, and proceeded to get ornery and defensive.

Let's think about why the no IC in OOC rule is there, though - to prevent players from being spoiled information about the round.

Is the fact that a player had their custom goggles spawned by the admins really going to be information that will run/spoil anybody's enjoyment of the round?

[Chaznoodles]

From my perspective, IC in OOC means giving information in OOC which would have an impact on the round, for instance '---- is a traitor' or other information which other player would not have. I don't think someone basically thanking staff for spawning their custom item counts as this. Alongside this, the rather controlling attitude displayed by Baka in what seems to be an order for the player to stop doing something that did not fall under this seems well out of line. Staff should be there to help players, not control them. Misconduct from a staff member.

[Doomberg]

If you believe a member of staff is wrongly enforcing a rule, you are expected to request clarification via adminhelp, not insist on arguing with them in OOC despite being told to stop. That is, indeed, grounds for a mute. Whether or not being muted for the entire round was excessive is debatable. "Stop it", while not the most diplomatic way of putting it, is not disrespectful.

The comment that was seen as IC in OOC is in a bit of a gray area - I would not personally enforce the IC in OOC rule in this case, but I see no reason to reprimand a member of staff for doing so, either (albeit it was entirely pointless).

[KhalidtheGrey]

Yeah I know I didn't act perfectly in the station, and I apologize about that, though I was still feeling like I was getting slapped and told to shut up like a little kid over a trivial remark which was basically a bug-fix more than an actual IC issue... That reminds me, what exactly is causing it to say 'Your whitelist status or job do not permit you to spawn with scanning goggles' when I can get them as roboticist but nothing else? Regardless, that's besides the point.

About the IC in OOC bit, I'm with frances, I can totally understand spoiling a round by just blurting out critical information that not everyone knows, but it has become a joke to me to blurt out over OOC 'hey everybody! there's a floor!' as a satire of the extreme prejudice players and staff crack down on even the slightest hint of anything to do with round being mentioned. Hell, I think earlier that round, I mentioned stepping off of a shuttle and a bomb going off five feet from me and blowing half the shuttle dock away while leaving me spooked as hell but intact and the entire OOC channel was shut off before I could explain that this happened about a week ago, which is specifically okay to talk about. Reminds me of sec charging into some place just because they heard someone snatched a pen and brigging everyone...

[Doomberg]

I'll look into the general IC in OOC dogpiling.

(As for the goggles, you get that message when you join as a job that can't spawn with the item in question)

[Guest]

I would like to make note for the record that after the round that the complaint is entailing, the round type was voted nuke.

After a decision that led to the nuke ops (mistakenly) spawnbombing the ERT and killing all but one, apparently the OP decided to ick in ock even more and toss insults around.

I don't have logs pertaining to that but I recall Baka/Scopes being around for that. Idk if they muted them from OOC again but the OP was being very arrogant and insulting.

[Baka]

Using my age and ad hominem for me being firm on you after you were acting uncouth is confusing, considering I didn't do something insulting like call you an idiot in admin pms.

Or perhaps, you know, you miss the big detail why OOC jumped on you after you called me a jackass in another round.

 

 

I'm sorry I felt you were having an attitude with me though. Because usually someone saying something sarcastic after I asked them to stop makes me feel like they're disregarding what I'm asking them to do.

[KhalidtheGrey]

I takes a lot to make me disregard what someone is saying, I try to take everyone seriously... up to a point. I also try to avoid globalizing and lumping people together.

[EvilBrage]

If you ask me, the reason for the mute really doesn't seem to be the IC in OOC - it was Khalid's critique of the "stop it" line. Then again, in the same position, I'd have hit the mute button right after Khalid said "ICly, i had them the whole time." It's my experience that Baka jumps the gun on occasion, but I'm really not seeing that here.

That doesn't mean Baka couldn't have handled the situation better - the tone of your first PM to Khalid is bossy almost to the point of hostility, and exacerbated a situation that could have been avoided entirely had you simply (and repetitively) pointed to the rules. It is difficult to read emotion and intent behind text, and I could easily see how someone might construe what you said as an assertion that being an administrator makes you better than other players - that's where the escalation took place.

[K0NFL1QT]

The long and short of the issue is that the player in question posted IC in OOC, was told to stop, and proceeded to get ornery and defensive. They belittled the admin for enforcing a very clear rule in a very concise manner, and so earned themselves a mute on the grounds of being a dick, argumentative, disrespectful, and as more of a footnote, posting IC in OOC.

 

End thread.

[Doomberg]

We will be clarifying what exactly is considered a violation of the IC in OOC rule some time in the future. As for the mute, the main motivation for it was already explained as not being entirely based on IC in OOC, but rather on attitude. It could have, of course, been handled in a gentler manner, but I do not see this as enough of a reason to reprimand the staff member in question.

I will be locking and archiving this - if anyone has something to add or ask that might be relevant to this, you are more than welcome to contact me.