On the topic of SSL's and OOC antagonizing.

[enkas]

Someone's roleplay being perceived as below your own standards does not permit or justify their harassment. It will not be tolerated. There are two options here: A) Suggest improvements for them in a polite and constructive manner and hope they consider what you've said. B) Shut up and simply RP with someone else.

Edit for clarification purposes: I'm referring to RP that is not against the rules. If it is, do as Skull says.

 

You see, the point of this whole thread, is because Jakers was being all social justice warrior, thinking that there is actually homophobia in this matter of SSLs. I only made my post to tell him, that it is not how it seems to him.

[Doomberg]

Someone's roleplay being perceived as below your own standards does not permit or justify their harassment. It will not be tolerated. There are two options here: A) Suggest improvements for them in a polite and constructive manner and hope they consider what you've said. B) Shut up and simply RP with someone else.

Edit for clarification purposes: I'm referring to RP that is not against the rules. If it is, do as Skull says.

 

You see, the point of this whole thread, is because Jakers was being all social justice warrior, thinking that there is actually homophobia in this matter of SSLs. I only made my post to tell him, that it is not how it seems to him.

 

This wasn't necessarily aimed at you, but anyone who had the impression that seeing someone as a poor RPer is just cause to harass them.

[Skull132]

I honestly think this thread, and the entire argument is overkill. Point one, I haven't seen proper SSLs in ages. While I might be wrong, due to not being on 24/7, I do not believe that they are an active issue. And if someone conducts harassment, then, we simply ban them. Other than that, if people get really ridiculous with their concepts, we will manage them as well.

9/10 times, though. SSL is used as a joking remark. It is literally a SS13 meme, as much as baldies are.

[Crescentise]

I'm on my phone, so I can't talk at length here, but I must say this. What Skull just said is perfectly indicative of why deleting my post was bad. Ignorance abounds.

[Skull132]

I do not know fully what happened with the deleted posts, as I don't involve myself in the admin shenanigans that much anymore. Buut, you can read my opinion's on the actions in question on Xander's forum mod application.

[Skull132]

Oh, and let me add onto my point one. Point one point five: I have never actually seen anyone harass another player over playing a character akin to the SSL parametres, or even an outright SSL. Again, my coverage isn't perfect, but. I have never seen it here. Never. In the two years of this server existing. Obviously you get whispers, rumors, yadda. But never actual outright harassment. And considering our policies on harassment, anyone reported as harassing will be dealt with rather swiftly. As has been the case in the past.

[Doomberg]

Unlocked. Will not hesitate to lock again if things become dumb. Please don't make things dumb.

Dumb includes, but is not limited to:

 

• Reposting/quoting binned posts without getting staff approval to have the post restored.
  
• Making more off topic "fuck the police" remarks.
  
• Discussing forum mod conduct - this should be taken to the recently-created complaint thread, instead.

 

Friendly reminder.

[SierraKomodo]

Going to pop in here to mention that I also haven't seen any actual harassment regarding sexuality in OOC. I've got two characters that aren't straight (One's male, and 99% of the crew probably don't even realise he's borderline seeing another male), and never had any problems. Sue joked about Rasine every now and then, sure, but I've never encountered any issues or had a problem with it.

[Crescentise]

Well, yeah. Harassment is characteristically repetitive. Openly disparaging popular, yet extremely flawed, characters over a long period of time is social suicide as far as aurora is concerned. There IS no harassment, or homophobia. Just straw men and butthurt, horny people constructing them.

Edited July 26, 2015 by Guest

[Guest Marlon Phoenix]

Oh ok I misunderstood the OP's intentions. I thought he/others were facing this widespread harassment, but instead of this, it's an abstract "I'm sure it's happening"? I've seen harassment, but not an OOC campaign against SSL's outside the jokes.

Two of my recent mains (characters I play almost exclusively for periods of time) are dudes who like dudes. I've got a lady who fancies other ladies. I have yet to be harassed by any of this. A good part of this is probably their sexuality not even being part of their visible character because 1) romance IC makes me feel weird 2) All my characters (except the hilarious wild ride of Richard Dick Johnson) are professional enough to keep it far from the workplace and their daily job. I mean there are still people who have played with me for months, and are still surprised to learn Houssam is married to a dude, lmao

I will still say ahelping is 1000% better than making forum threads when you feel harassed or uncomfortable

[Guest]

If I may comment for a moment regarding this thread.

You know, this wouldn't have come up at all if the OP didn't have a lesbian character. No, really, think about it. The way it looks, this wouldn't have popped up if someone didn't feel the need to defend themselves for the actions of others, for whatever reason.

They say it's easier to seek forgiveness than to ask permission, but they also say apologizing is a sign of weakness.

Just a thought.

[Jakers457]

Not entirely 1138, I've not experienced any harassment on my side of things with having a lesbian character.

Could it not simply be because someone came to me about their grievances and experience, that I decided to do something about it?

[Guest]

Not entirely 1138, I've not experienced any harassment on my side of things with having a lesbian character.

Could it not simply be because someone came to me about their grievances and experience, that I decided to do something about it?

 

Yet you immediately sympathize with them without wondering as to why they receive such criticism?

Could it be that the people who complain are inherently bad roleplayers, or exhibit behavioral patterns that would result in such a judgement being doled out?

[Jakers457]

Not entirely 1138, I've not experienced any harassment on my side of things with having a lesbian character.

Could it not simply be because someone came to me about their grievances and experience, that I decided to do something about it?

 

Yet you immediately sympathize with them without wondering as to why they receive such criticism?

Could it be that the people who complain are inherently bad roleplayers, or exhibit behavioral patterns that would result in such a judgement being doled out?

 

Actually, they came to me a couple of weeks before making the post. At first I simply told them to ignore it, petty individuals aren't worth a penny. But it continued, not only with say, lesbian characters but with a good hand full of characters. I simply observed before throwing the gauntlet and making my views open, with the full expectation that I probably would receive flak for it and that having a lesbian character cost me some credibility.

But my point, above all else, is that if you see a character that you don't particularly agree with. Either give them feedback WHEN requested by the player or keep your trap shut and get on with your own shenanigans. Pedigree of roleplay is in no way a validation, to constantly make jabs OOCly. Like I said, I knew full well of the consequences of making this post but I have a bleeding heart and I'm inclined to help those who share their grievances with me.

[Guest]

Would I be out of line for saying that your observations lacked a solid foundation? People paint themselves as victimized all the time, but it doesn't mean they really are.

I mean, sure, if people want to pretend as though they are doing no wrong and that their characters are perfect because they say they are, then all the power to them.

But don't expect people to keep their silence because you find that honesty becomes problematic.

And it's never been about, "I am inherently better than you, and so I know better." It is about some of us making the rest of us look bad.

And when that occurs, the natural thing that occurs is disassociation.

[Guest Marlon Phoenix]

Hnnng. You shouldn't immediately sympathise with someone without the additional context necessary. Communication is important yes, and making the other party in a discussion feel that what they say is being taken into heavy consideration is important, but don't become a messiah without any investigation.

 

Either give them feedback WHEN requested by the player or keep your trap shut and get on with your own shenanigans.

 

No. If a criticism is constructive, and isn't just being an ass to feel self-validation, it is legitimate and can help a player mature as a writer and as a person in general. To remain on the topic of SSL's; if you are doing a silly thing with someone's sexuality, I'm going to remark on it because it impacts me because we're playing the same game.

 

Pedigree of roleplay is in no way a validation, to constantly make jabs OOCly.

 

Truespeak. This is an important issue. But the problem is that you aren't handling this effectively. You've drawn a line in the sand and have created an argument rife with assumptions. Neither side in this discussion can in any way feel that they've been constructive with the other person

[enkas]

Either give them feedback WHEN requested by the player or keep your trap shut and get on with your own shenanigans.

 

But that would solve nothing. Some halfwits actually believe they're perfect, and of course, the same daft people take critisizm as a personal attack, rather than something one should try learning from.

[Doomberg]

Either give them feedback WHEN requested by the player or keep your trap shut and get on with your own shenanigans.

 

But that would solve nothing. Some halfwits actually believe they're perfect, and of course, the same daft people take critisizm as a personal attack, rather than something one should try learning from.

 

And by aggressively confronting and insulting people, you have solved even less. You've taken a step BACKWARDS, not forwards.

[Crescentise]

Because random criticism == aggressively confronting and insulting people, eh Doom?

My big binned post didn't actively insult anyone. I even accompanied most criticisms with advice. If anyone was offended by the mere mention of their name alongside factual recall of what they did or do, it's their problem. Maybe if they don't want to be offended by their own actions in the future, they'll, you know, actually bother to consider why what they're doing might be criticism worthy.

[Doomberg]

Calling people daft and halfwits is not criticism. Mocking people is not criticism. Hide behind a veil of trying to "improve" them, if you will, but I will not allow anyone to be publicly shamed out of a certain playstyle. If you want to criticize, do so in a manner that won't piss people off, or don't do it at all.

[Crescentise]

Doom. It REALLY feels like you misunderstand on purpose to be all heroic and protect your favourite people. But you just end up antagonising others through this attitude. U mad cos I insulted ur frends? Well stand back, you've just insulted mine.

Do you really think of Enkas so poorly that you would actually think that he's attempting constructive criticism in his post just now (I assume you don't, but if you do, ignore this post by all means). Pro tip: he's not. He's frustrated that OTHER criticisms in the past have been dismissed. He's not even naming names with these half baked insults. But it seems not even expressing any sort of negative emotion is allowed on forums anymore.

Again, it's not my fault the targets of the criticism are huge pussies. You 'will not allow anyone to be publicly shamed out of' brainless, reputation-damaging (that of your precious server), fetish-driven roleplay? Then get used to disgusted, excluded newcomers and veterans alike.

[Doomberg]

I count a handful of "disgusted, excluded" veterans. We'll survive. Do you know what the REASONABLE thing to do would be when your unsolicited criticism is poorly received by the target individual and clearly unwanted? Stop giving it, they're clearly not listening. It's REALLY SIMPLE. Pressing any further will fix absolutely nothing. Apparently this is a sacrifice too massive to be made, however.

And yet on we go, calling people huge pussies, brainless, etcetera. I applaud you.

[Frances]

I will not allow anyone to be publicly shamed out of a certain playstyle.

 

• • "I was a medbay doctor, minding my own business. Someone says they want to donate blood in the beginning of the round, okay I guess. Person gets to medbay, typical moeblob female character, stutters a bit. This is just HRP routine, I think nothing of it. I examine her with my HUD to see her blood type and --
    
    ...Find out her medical record is a list of fetishes, with bestiality and BDSM on top of said list. The subsequent confrontation about the affair ended with every Unathi and Tajaran on the station forming a lynch mob against me.
    
    The round was still fun, mind you. It ended up with an ERT being sent to restrain the angry animal people, they were all hauled to the shuttle in cuffs.
    
    Then, someone started playing devil's advocate for bestiality in OOC because some people were actually OOCly salty that my character had ICly condemned bestiality.
    
    Aurora is a magical place."

  -Ebincluwne, on a /r/ss13 thread about lynch mobs

 

Like, okay, yeah... is this the kind of playstyle you're looking to protect? Should we defend the absolute garbage of HRP?

And yeah, I might surprise some of you by calling a group of players or a playstyle garbage, but, that's... literally what it is, pretty much. Thirteen-year-old furry fetishists, sparkledog-inspired mary sue creators, strange, basement-dwelling men who only roleplay teenage girls with long dyed hair and japanese names, people who do nothing but engage in light disney-PG13-sex roleplay touching each other in maintenance tunnels, and so on.

Hell, they're at least prominent to a point, because we've even got a widely coined acronym to describe a specific group of them, "Suicidal Space Lesbians" (of which I've definitely witnessed quite a few). And sure, I might not actually play on Aurora quite that much anymore, but these kind of people have always been around, and I'm pretty sure they'll always be around, especially since I can mention we've got our share of recent stories and threads reporting on their existence (or on the incomprehensible need that some people have to whiteknight them).

You can go with the politically-correct route, and turn Aurora into a hugbox. And sure, these people are gonna be happy, and Aurora won't be "cool" anymore, and it's still going to be a HRP server though a different brand of it, a brand that some people will hate and that other people will be very happy to have (but a brand I think already exists in a lot of places, while the slightly cooler and slightly more judgemental kind doesn't really seem to exist in HRP anymore). And I guess I'll be a little disappointed to see that happen but whatever.

So, my question is, do you want to defend these players? If so, why? And to which extent?

[Doomberg]

I will not allow anyone to be publicly shamed out of a certain playstyle.

 

• • "I was a medbay doctor, minding my own business. Someone says they want to donate blood in the beginning of the round, okay I guess. Person gets to medbay, typical moeblob female character, stutters a bit. This is just HRP routine, I think nothing of it. I examine her with my HUD to see her blood type and --
    
    ...Find out her medical record is a list of fetishes, with bestiality and BDSM on top of said list. The subsequent confrontation about the affair ended with every Unathi and Tajaran on the station forming a lynch mob against me.
    
    The round was still fun, mind you. It ended up with an ERT being sent to restrain the angry animal people, they were all hauled to the shuttle in cuffs.
    
    Then, someone started playing devil's advocate for bestiality in OOC because some people were actually OOCly salty that my character had ICly condemned bestiality.
    
    Aurora is a magical place."

  -Ebincluwne, on a /r/ss13 thread about lynch mobs

 

Like, okay, yeah... is this the kind of playstyle you're looking to protect? Should we defend the absolute garbage of HRP?

And yeah, I might surprise some of you by calling a group of players or a playstyle garbage, but, that's... literally what it is, pretty much. Thirteen-year-old furry fetishists, sparkledog-inspired mary sue creators, strange, basement-dwelling men who only roleplay teenage girls with long dyed hair and japanese names, people who do nothing but engage in light disney-PG13-sex roleplay touching each other in maintenance tunnels, and so on.

Hell, they're at least prominent to a point, because we've even got a widely coined acronym to describe a specific group of them, "Suicidal Space Lesbians" (of which I've definitely witnessed quite a few). And sure, I might not actually play on Aurora quite that much anymore, but these kind of people have always been around, and I'm pretty sure they'll always be around, especially since I can mention we've got our share of recent stories and threads reporting on their existence (or on the incomprehensible need that some people have to whiteknight them).

You can go with the politically-correct route, and turn Aurora into a hugbox. And sure, these people are gonna be happy, and Aurora won't be "cool" anymore, and it's still going to be a HRP server though a different brand of it, a brand that some people will hate and that other people will be very happy to have (but a brand I think already exists in a lot of places, while the slightly cooler and slightly more judgemental kind doesn't really seem to exist in HRP anymore). And I guess I'll be a little disappointed to see that happen but whatever.

So, my question is, do you want to defend these players? If so, why? And to which extent?

 

First of all - I was there for that incident and a great deal of that story is complete and absolute bullshit.

Moving on. Yes, I'm going to make sure people can play as they please as long as they maintain a modicum of civility and adhere to the current rules. If you do not wish to frequent the same server as these people (which, might I add, are rare as fuck) because you see them as being below your standards or "garbage", then allow me to politely remind you that you are more than welcome to exercise your right to withdraw.

[Frances]

You probably want to write new rules, in this case, or release some kind of official stance. It's something I think people would be better off learning all at once, and having explained clearly, than by discovering it through complaint thread-after-complaint thread.

(Also no matter how you spin the above incident, I'm pretty sure we can't make without the fact that somebody managed to slip a mention of dogfucking into their medical records, that it caused some kind of incident, and that OOC had a conversation about dogfucking after the fact.)