Staff Complaint: Josh1133

[spacevoidagent]

BYOND Key: spacevoidagent

Staff BYOND Key:[/b Josh1133

Reason for complaint: He threatened me and told me to stop making references to ISIS, even though I never made any actual references, and made a new meaning to the group, (Islamic State in Space). I tried to tell him I was RPing a islamic teacher, and that I made no direct references AT ALL, other than just ISIS. He said there is no arguing, and that I need to stop. I feel this was un-justified and I would like for the warning to be removed from my record.

Evidence/logs/etc: Here is the logs in Order of Occurence. http://imgur.com/a/Qw7Kw (My Character is Muhammad)

Additional remarks: I said Allah - Akbar as it is the first thing all Muslims say before prayer. It has no terrorist meaning, and translates to "God is Greater" or "God is Greatest", nothing else.

[Garnascus]

I mean... You /explicitly/ said in game your group is called ISIS although with differences as to each letters full word. While in not praising joshes "I am the law" stance I can see where his coming from. Surely you don't expect us to believe you just happened to choose that name for no reason?

[spacevoidagent]

I mean... You /explicitly/ said in game your group is called ISIS although with differences as to each letters full word. While in not praising joshes "I am the law" stance I can see where his coming from. Surely you don't expect us to believe you just happened to choose that name for no reason?

 

I chose it for Satire. I thought it was funny, and several others thought it was too, in OOC. This was the only reference to ISIS, and was a purely satirical one. I have made no other remarks of beheading, murder, war or any of that. If you are offended by four letters, then you should not be a moderator. I have not offended anyone ICly, and have even typed a full Islamic prayer, including holding the Quran in the correct hand, and using bed-sheets as prayer rugs. I have done nothing offensive or stereotypical, and am being told I did. I dislike his strong attitude, saying "There is no arguing." and "This is final." I would hope that people look at this with an open mind, and not biased towards me or in favor of the Aurora staff.

[Garnascus]

Well it looks to me he might have though you were being 100% satirical and not just with the name. The problem I see here is you're gonna color your actions really badly if you pick a name with such strong implications like that, regardless of your actual intent. That said i only have one part of the story at this point.

[spacevoidagent]

Well it looks to me he might have though you were being 100% satirical and not just with the name. The problem I see here is you're gonna color your actions really badly if you pick a name with such strong implications like that, regardless of your actual intent. That said i only have one part of the story at this point.

 

I can understand some concern, but he should not have told me to stop ten minutes in, before I could even develop anything with the group. It ruined my whole round intentions.

[Guest Menown]

If I made a german character and started a group on station with a group that ended up being shortened to NAZI, do you think I'd last long?

If you had made the group, I dunno, Islamic State within Fringe Space, or ISFS or something, that'd be better. But, you knew what you were doing. Choosing it in /satire/ is a definite no. One, we have members of our server that live in Israel. So, I'd do my best to not make emulate, or even reference a group that wants them gone.

[Japak121]

Mods aren't robots.

We get what you were trying to do.

Meow makes a solid point and one that pretty much sums up what I'm sure Josh was thinking.

[Doomberg]

The warning text will be adjusted to accurately represent the issue.

The issue is this: This is a heavy roleplay server. You made an Islamic group named ISIS, and then argued with a moderator when told that is not acceptable. You are attempting to use a sort of loophole (IE, "it didn't really mean the same thing ISIS does") to justify your actions.

Point one: Your intent seems pretty clear. You, yourself, stated that it was attempted satire.

Point two: Staff members, contrary to popular belief, are not obligated to argue with you in admin PMs - when a lengthy discussion is permitted, it is a courtesy from the individual staff member you are dealing with. If, after explaining the reasoning and circumstances behind your actions, you still receive punishment, and feel that the punishment in question was unjust, you are expected to drop the subject on the server and, instead, make a staff complaint.

Now that the question of whether this was warranted or not has been addressed, we can discuss the manner in which it was handled. For that, I'll be waiting on Josh to post here.

Fine print: Allahu Akbar does not, in fact, inherently have any connotations of terrorism.

[spacevoidagent]

The warning text will be adjusted to accurately represent the issue.

The issue is this: This is a heavy roleplay server. You made an Islamic group named ISIS, and then argued with a moderator when told that is not acceptable. You are attempting to use a sort of loophole (IE, "it didn't really mean the same thing ISIS does") to justify your actions.

Point one: Your intent seems pretty clear. You, yourself, stated that it was attempted satire.

Point two: Staff members, contrary to popular belief, are not obligated to argue with you in admin PMs - when a lengthy discussion is permitted, it is a courtesy from the individual staff member you are dealing with. If, after explaining the reasoning and circumstances behind your actions, you still receive punishment, and feel that the punishment in question was unjust, you are expected to drop the subject on the server and, instead, make a staff complaint.

Now that the question of whether this was warranted or not has been addressed, we can discuss the manner in which it was handled. For that, I'll be waiting on Josh to post here.

Fine print: Allahu Akbar does not, in fact, inherently have any connotations of terrorism.

 

I'm not attempting to use the "loophole" that you mentioned. I made the group called ISIS because it's funny, it makes sense, and it's something we all know. People make racist jokes and holocaust jokes in OOC and I never see them get dealt with, OOC just gets muted. I hardly argued with him, and just attempted to tell him I wasn't trying to offend anyone, and didn't think it was offensive. I immediately filed this complaint against him when I was back from cooking and eating.

[Doomberg]

I'm not attempting to use the "loophole" that you mentioned.

Then why are you trying to say that action should not have been taken with the reasoning of "it wasn't really that ISIS"?

 

I made the group called ISIS because it's funny, it makes sense, and it's something we all know.

So, at least partly for the sake of a joke.

 

People make racist jokes and holocaust jokes in OOC and I never see them get dealt with, OOC just gets muted.

Repeat offenders are dealt with accordingly. There's a difference, however, between making an inappropriate sort of joke in OOC and creating an IC group/character for it. Furthermore, you don't see them get dealt with because you don't see admin PMs that are not your own. The fact that you do not see someone being punished does not immediately mean they have not been punished.

 

I hardly argued with him, and just attempted to tell him I wasn't trying to offend anyone, and didn't think it was offensive.

This is not an attempt at explaining your actions. It is 1) A lie ("I'm not making a joke" followed by the forum claims of "I made the group called ISIS because it's funny" and "I chose it for Satire. I thought it was funny, and several others thought it was too, in OOC. ") and 2) Disrespectful, considering you're more or less saying "it's called roleplaying, relax".

 

I immediately filed this complaint against him when I was back from cooking and eating.

Yes, that's good.

[spacevoidagent]

I said that I was not joking about Islam and Allah - Akbar.

Here: (http://i.imgur.com/7jkQ7ZT.jpg) he says that I need to stop making jokes about Islam and "Praise Allah - Akbar" which I never said. I admit to joking about the name ISIS but I never, and did NOT joke around with Islam. I didn't want to offend anyone by saying shit like "We will blow you up for Islam" or "Death to the Infidels."

[Doomberg]

I said that I was not joking about Islam and Allah - Akbar.

Here: (http://i.imgur.com/7jkQ7ZT.jpg) he says that I need to stop making jokes about Islam and "Praise Allah - Akbar" which I never said. I admit to joking about the name ISIS but I never, and did NOT joke around with Islam. I didn't want to offend anyone by saying shit like "We will blow you up for Islam" or "Death to the Infidels."

 

Alright, I'll agree to that. The warning, as I said, will be adjusted to reflect reality: Namely, the issue of naming your religious Muslim group ISIS.

[spacevoidagent]

I said that I was not joking about Islam and Allah - Akbar.

Here: (http://i.imgur.com/7jkQ7ZT.jpg) he says that I need to stop making jokes about Islam and "Praise Allah - Akbar" which I never said. I admit to joking about the name ISIS but I never, and did NOT joke around with Islam. I didn't want to offend anyone by saying shit like "We will blow you up for Islam" or "Death to the Infidels."

 

Alright, I'll agree to that. The warning, as I said, will be adjusted to reflect reality: Namely, the issue of naming your religious Muslim group ISIS.

Alright, thank you. That looks better than I made remarks of being a terrorist.

[Doomberg]

Alright, thank you for understanding. As said, we'll move on to discussing staff conduct once Josh gets here.

[josh1133]

Hi there!

I like to first point out that I do realize that Allah Akubar is not something only terrorist say, in fact, if I remember correctly you were saying it quite a few times over comms. The moment you got a message from me was the moment you started recruiting people for ISIS, which after that, it no longer seemed like you were well researched on the religion but simply were trying to be funny. Now, I didn't ask you to stop completely you may notice, I asked you to tone it down. You refused too and told me it was not a joke, and since you were recruiting for /ISIS/, I immediately did not believe you. Now that I do realize you have researched the religion, I do apologize.

I did not aghost to watch you for the entire round, so I simply had what I heard off the radio and what the other staff heard off the radio. If you were wondering, that was the ISIS recruitment followed by Allah-Akubar. Just to warn you, in that order it tends to look bad, though I commend your research on the religion to play the character appropriately.

Point is. You were recruiting for a group called ISIS, you lost all credibility and when I asked you to tone it down, you didn't want too, so I had to send you another three messages before finally saying "This is it".

[spacevoidagent]

Hi there!

I like to first point out that I do realize that Allah Akubar is not something only terrorist say, in fact, if I remember correctly you were saying it quite a few times over comms. The moment you got a message from me was the moment you started recruiting people for ISIS, which after that, it no longer seemed like you were well researched on the religion but simply were trying to be funny. Now, I didn't ask you to stop completely you may notice, I asked you to tone it down. You refused too and told me it was not a joke, and since you were recruiting for /ISIS/, I immediately did not believe you. Now that I do realize you have researched the religion, I do apologize.

I did not aghost to watch you for the entire round, so I simply had what I heard off the radio and what the other staff heard off the radio. If you were wondering, that was the ISIS recruitment followed by Allah-Akubar. Just to warn you, in that order it tends to look bad, though I commend your research on the religion to play the character appropriately.

Point is. You were recruiting for a group called ISIS, you lost all credibility and when I asked you to tone it down, you didn't want too, so I had to send you another three messages before finally saying "This is it".

 

Well first, I did stop after you told me. And secondly, I never refused to stop, I simply said I haven't even done anything, and that I was not joking around with the Allah - Akbar. You just told me I can't talk about or portray ISIS which is a terrorist group, and I need to stop saying Allah - Akbar, even though I'm playing an Islamic Chaplain.

[josh1133]

Yes, you were playing a Islamic Chaplin, yes you were saying Allah Akubar. This is all fine, as I stated, the only time it became a problem is when you started recruiting for a group called ISIS. At that moment, it no longer looks like you are doing a well researched, well thought out character. Instead it sounds like you are insulting the religion and instead trying to be funny. Maybe I shouldn't have told you to stop saying Allah Akubar as I am well aware of its true meaning, but you should realize that from my point of view, you going

"JOIN ISIS"

Then going on and on about how you will rebuild the muslim world with ISIS and then going Allah Akubar doesn't make you seem like a person who researched the religion. Instead it makes you sound like you are a troll.

[Guest]

Sounded like low-quality roleplay to me.

Still, isn't the staff currently in the stage of protecting the player's roleplay no matter the quality, because roleplay is roleplay and everyone else should be damned for complaining about low-quality roleplay?

This is strangely inconsistent, I was under the impression all of the staff were on the same page with the server agenda. Weird.

[spacevoidagent]

Yes, you were playing a Islamic Chaplin, yes you were saying Allah Akubar. This is all fine, as I stated, the only time it became a problem is when you started recruiting for a group called ISIS. At that moment, it no longer looks like you are doing a well researched, well thought out character. Instead it sounds like you are insulting the religion and instead trying to be funny. Maybe I shouldn't have told you to stop saying Allah Akubar as I am well aware of its true meaning, but you should realize that from my point of view, you going

"JOIN ISIS"

Then going on and on about how you will rebuild the muslim world with ISIS and then going Allah Akubar doesn't make you seem like a person who researched the religion. Instead it makes you sound like you are a troll.

 

Hey look! Your putting words in my mouth so that you look like the good guy! I didn't say "Join ISIS" I said "We are accepting recruits for my Islamic group, we are called ISIS." I never said I was rebuilding the Muslim world and actually said "We support traditional Islam ways of life." and "We are destined to create a safe haven for Islamic Members." You know, like a refuge? A place where you won't get judged? You shouldn't have immediately made me stop TEN minutes into the round, before I even had a chance to develop the group other than announcing we are accepting new members, and members will receive free food and apartments.

I never insulted the religion by calling my group ISIS, and I'm saying this for the fourth time, I named the group ISIS for SATIRE. Have you read any of the previous posts? Or looked at the pictures I posted?

[spacevoidagent]

Sounded like low-quality roleplay to me.

Still, isn't the staff currently in the stage of protecting the player's roleplay no matter the quality, because roleplay is roleplay and everyone else should be damned for complaining about low-quality roleplay?

This is strangely inconsistent, I was under the impression all of the staff were on the same page with the server agenda. Weird.

Of course it's low quality, I got stopped TEN minutes into the round. I attempted to keep RPing a Islamic Chaplain, by renovating the chapel, using sheets for prayer rugs, getting extra Qurans, and announcing a Muslim prayer group over comms. Nobody on this server wants to engage with the chaplain, and want to remain in their inner-department cliques. Of completely ruins the point of playing player interaction based jobs. So please, don't call my RP "low quality".

[josh1133]

Alright. Ill say it again. Nice and simple this time.

What you did as a Muslim preacher was fine.

You then made a group called "ISIS" for Satire.

This was not Ok.

You looked like a troll at this point, so "Allah Akubar" didn't seem much like praise anymore, more like trolls in GTA who shoot your plane down and scream it in the game chat.

At the end of the day, you made a group called ISIS.

Its like if someone made a german priest and talked about killing the aliens and named their group NAZI.

You can't do it. Muslim preacher is fine. But you went too far.

That's all Im saying on the matter, you keep sending me messages like this arguing your point so I told you to stop. Now at this point I would say "Final say" but I am not in charge here. So Ill be done posting.

Don't make a group called ISIS next time on a Heavy Roleplay server. Simple as that.

[Frances]

I can agree on the simple basis of the name.

I don't mind satire, even of touchy subjects, when it's well-executed (which might be the unpopular opinion here). But naming your group ISIS is just really blatant and in-your-face. I don't even particularly care, but other people will, and then, yeah.

Like I 100% wouldn't mind having a group that /parodies/ ISIS, but as far as political correctness is concerned here, it should at least be named something else.

[Guest]

I don't think it's really about political correctness. Religious radicals are few and far in-between in space (not to say that religious fanatics are mostly void in this setting). The assumption would be that conflict broils up more over money and more material ideologies over religious beliefs.

The problem I see here is that it's pretty roleplay-breaking the way it played out. It's not telling a story and it's not particularly interesting in the slightest, it was RP'd with the intention to make people either laugh or to garner some level of shock.

At least, that's what it looks like to me. Josh's approach wouldn't have been mine, but your execution on the matter looks just as poor.

[Tenenza]

So, any further remarks on this?

It's been fifteen days since the last post, so unless anyone wants to press this further, it seems fairly inactive.

[Doomberg]

The acting staff member's actions have been explained in a reasonable manner and I do not see any glaring issues with his conduct. Locking and archiving.