Outboarduniform Posted October 3, 2015 Posted October 3, 2015 i`ll get to the point here. biometric systems should be extremely common at this point , considering how far humanity has reached and how much they`ve achieved. things like retina scanners / palm scanners/ and DNA scanners should be common. especially when opening locks , or going into sensitive areas , like the AI core and head`s of staffs office`s. It would ensure the safety of everyone so no one can hack into areas they aren`t supposed to be in , and keep secure things even more secure. there has to be something that can nerf the sytem though , because..........play balance
LordFowl Posted October 4, 2015 Posted October 4, 2015 I don't see how this would prevent people from hacking into a door. All it would mean is that you would have to hack off the biometric scanner. What would be interesting is malf AIs deleting people's fingerprint hash, making it so the door no longer recognizes it as belonging to the Captain.
Outboarduniform Posted October 4, 2015 Author Posted October 4, 2015 what i was thinking of is having to give a print to open the maintenance panel , and the scanner would be hackable
Killerhurtz Posted October 4, 2015 Posted October 4, 2015 Yeah no. First, we WANT doors to be hackable - otherwise, most antags lose a very valuable and sneaky way to do their objectives - it encourages blowing walls up or melting them with thermite. And if antags still get to hack doors, then this whole idea is moot. For griefers/curious people breaking into places, we have security. And sometimes, in emergencies, it's a necessary action to hack into somewhere, either to not-brutally-die-in-a-holodeck-fire or to save someone so that THEY will not-brutally-die-in-a-holodeck-fire. Second, having the door switch identity check from IDs to fingerprints, mechanically, just asks to make everything more complicated. Instead of having a single item that has authorizations, you now have to make a system that remotely changes permission either in a virtual item on a person, or in the door themselves - and that can get messy fast, and may even be detrimental to server performance when there's a lot of people. Overall, not a good idea I say. And look at most high-security places today - they're still using a keycard of some form (either RFID, magstrip or physical strip or even NFC nowadays).
Outboarduniform Posted October 5, 2015 Author Posted October 5, 2015 yeah , but this is more than a century in a future. and to be honest , there`s already alot of unrealistic play balances for antags already
Killerhurtz Posted October 5, 2015 Posted October 5, 2015 Because, by default, security has the most advantages. Vastly outnumbering, having actual access (and being able to get actual access), until it's compromized they also have the borgs and AIs, limited resources, corridors designed to make people easy to spot...
Outboarduniform Posted October 5, 2015 Author Posted October 5, 2015 which is countered by maintenance tunnels/most traitor equipment...it really depends on how competent the traitor is and if they can fully exploit the system
Dreamix Posted October 5, 2015 Posted October 5, 2015 which is countered by maintenance tunnels/most traitor equipment...it really depends on how competent the traitor is and if they can fully exploit the system I can never understand it, when people are talking about antagging and security's advantage, they assume that security's retarded (assuming that security cannot enter maint tunnels and that they don't communicate) and that the antagonist needs to be a mastermind (You were fighting 1v5 and lost the fight, pity traitor? You shouldoutrobust them with ease!) That's not how it works, really. Usually, antags and security are on the same level, but security is vastly overwhelming antags with AI's and sheer numbers. Hell, security even has stunbatons, one-hit KO. Also, would this really make a difference? Wouldn't it just be another wire to remember when hacking, or just another panel to emag? Effort vs Profit.
Conservatron Posted October 5, 2015 Posted October 5, 2015 which is countered by maintenance tunnels/most traitor equipment...it really depends on how competent the traitor is and if they can fully exploit the system remove sec access to maint tunnels then you can give it as an antag advantage actually, id say maint is way more sec advantage, it allows sec to surround an antag by going from both directions and the antag has nowhere to run. at least in hallways an antag can dance
Guest Marlon Phoenix Posted October 5, 2015 Posted October 5, 2015 which is countered by maintenance tunnels/most traitor equipment...it really depends on how competent the traitor is and if they can fully exploit the system remove sec access to maint tunnels then you can give it as an antag advantage actually, id say maint is way more sec advantage, it allows sec to surround an antag by going from both directions and the antag has nowhere to run. at least in hallways an antag can dance Our maintenance is pathetic. There's nowhere to hide or run because the most complex it gets is a 4 way intersection.
Carver Posted October 6, 2015 Posted October 6, 2015 If we just replaced the ID system with voice/eye/fingerprint scanners, that could offer a rather interesting avenue of new ways to infiltrate. Cutting off hands, cutting out eyes, switching fingerprints in the records (This might need to be locked to require HoP/Captain access to alter), changelings switching their bodies. Sounds pretty neat instead of a mixed system.
Killerhurtz Posted October 6, 2015 Posted October 6, 2015 But Carver, that gives antags more reason to gank highly important people for their organs.
LordFowl Posted October 6, 2015 Posted October 6, 2015 Also, how would ID changes work if it was changed to fingerprints?
Outboarduniform Posted October 7, 2015 Author Posted October 7, 2015 probably give a retina scan/print/DNA sample , etc.
Carver Posted October 7, 2015 Posted October 7, 2015 Also, how would ID changes work if it was changed to fingerprints? You wouldn't need to walk to the HoP/Captain for him to change your access, they'd just do it remotely by inputting your fingerprint code then altering access. Entirely new avenues of sabotage, and entirely new avenues of security.
Outboarduniform Posted October 7, 2015 Author Posted October 7, 2015 To be honest , I didn't expect this to get so far xD. But yes , this is meant to benefit security and the tarot tots , each in different ways
Killerhurtz Posted October 8, 2015 Posted October 8, 2015 So I've been thinking. The whole of you lot have great ideas. And I came up with a way that we could implement that. Instead of having ID-based permissions, we have a Door whitelist. There's already exactly predetermined door 'types' or 'ranks' (command, RD, science, medical, public, so on). And so instead of making IDs that have that access, the HoP would modify the list of the appropriate doors, adding the character itself in a whitelist - and so anytime that the character is clearly identifiable (such as not wearing a mask, or wearing ID), the door is open to them. Or if we don't want to go the whole "cameras that identify people" we can make IDs/people have a 'unique ID' that serves the same purpose - the genetic UID as seen in medical documentation mayhaps? Or hell - just have them "swipe their ID". But basically - change the focus of permissions from the person to the doors. Pros and cons: +(?)People no longer need to travel ALL the way to the HoP office to get additional access +Lost IDs are no longer such a big deal +Antags get the option, instead of stealing the captain's spare ID, to kidnap people and use them as living keys to the doors of the station. Discourages killing important people if we make the doors have a "is alive" requirement for access. +Easier management, IMO +/-(?)Easier termination of employees - instead of forcing them to go all over there, just warn them that in X time they will lose access - and remove the access afterwards, plus charge them for trespassing if they didn't get out of places they no longer belong in +Lore-wise, more in-line with most modern security systems (hell, the place I work has a system similar to this) +With a bit of coding, could add some GREAT effects - for instance, have multiple whitelists with multiple effects (security could force the door closed as soon as they're past) and even have antag-friendly effects (when emagged, have the option to open but SMASH people who go through and that don't match certain IDs, among other things) +Possible to add more events. Like for instance, another type of ionospheric interference that gives all doors all access, or a server connection error that temporarily shuts down the auth server and makes all doors have no permissions, locking everyone in. +/-Switches the meta of antags severely - instead of just blowing the captain's office up and taking the ID, they need to penetrate the HoP office (which is deeper in the station) and do changes there (do we allow emagging door permission consoles?) -Could be hard to implement -Not sure how hacking would work after that -Could mess with any door that has a button (like medbay lobby doors, xenobio, virology, possibly all airlocks) which may be extremely hard to debug -Could cause permission sych issues which might cause bloody immense issues +Gives antags the possibility of sabotaging the permissions networks, just like they can sabotage the messaging/tcomms networks -Not sure, but could also cause a higher processing cost on the server -Could cause a mess with leaving players if not done correctly +Forces geneticists to be more careful not to fuck things up? +Gives antag geneticists an easy way to spoof access to places - in theory giving them more options beyond HULK SMASH +For clever antag groups, makes it possible to set up traps for individual people by revoking their access Thoughts?
Outboarduniform Posted October 8, 2015 Author Posted October 8, 2015 And for code red and highly sensitive areas , two biometric scans would have to be given from two different heads of staff. (Vault , AI core , Secure Armory , etc.). Also , an alarm goes off if someone tries to access the area with someone that has no vital signs. Of course , instead of a door system , we could implement another system , but I really like the idea you have here.
Zidanyia Posted October 8, 2015 Posted October 8, 2015 Iiiii'm honestly lost on how you guys want to do this. I'm aware of the premise (fingerprints, etc etc to open airlocks instead of just ID cards), but this already sounds overtly complex given that fingerprint strings are randomized each round. Furthermore, personnel are required to wear identification for, just that. Identification. So that you can holler at someone down the hall and say, "Hey, can I see your ID? Oh, hi Bob, didn't see it was you" rather than make the RP assumption that you know who the person is based on looking at how bald their head is. Edit: Okay, one thing comes to mind that are implemented into actual DNA-access security systems, but it's an overtly complex system that would be a waste of time to code. CPRNG. Ain't nobody got time for ciphers, though.
Killerhurtz Posted October 8, 2015 Posted October 8, 2015 Zidanyia, it's not that complex. The game already has code to update the crew roster on arrival and cryo'ing of people - I'm 90% certain that, despite the random fingerprint hash every round, we could adapt that code to automatically update the proper lists with the fingerprints relevant to that person's department.
Zidanyia Posted October 8, 2015 Posted October 8, 2015 Foreseeably, applying, removing and modifying fingerprint strings of specific users to every single affiliated airlock with a person's job as they drop in or out sounds quite complex and difficult to realize. I still don't like this idea because I think it could be more trouble and annoyance than it's worth, sorry. I think the system we have at the moment is perfect. People do need to realize their ID is extremely valuable and that losing it will severely cripple their access to certain areas. Likewise, one person's loss is another's gain, and an antagonist can gain a lot from stealing an ID. Plus I also think 'stealing' someone's fingerprints sounds just as much as trouble and a gigantic hassle just to open the bridge. Most people are still going to be defiant shits with a gun to their head. A traitor shouldn't have to be reduced to an emag to open it.
Outboarduniform Posted October 9, 2015 Author Posted October 9, 2015 Traitors already have a lot of trump cards , the only problem is escaping because of our shitty maintenance and unstoppable Borgs.
jackfractal Posted October 9, 2015 Posted October 9, 2015 And our Brig which is entirely surrounded by highly visible areas, and is mostly surrounded by more locked down areas even harder to escape from then the brig itself. Zid, the code side of this would not be that hard. You'd store the fingerprint data in one place, and then put a bunch of access flags on it. When the door needs to know if you're authorized, it reads your fingerprint hash, checks if the server still exists, and then checks if the doors access bits match the access permissions the computer has on that hash. It's a type check and a dictionary lookup. Maybe not quite as fast as the ID test we use now, but we don't do that many of them (maybe ten to twenty per second at the very highest), so it won't be noticeable. The real question is what happens if the authentication server goes down. Like, in a normal building, when you lose your security authentication server, the doors all unlock because it's assumed to be an emergency like a fire drill and it's more important to save people then to prevent access. In a high security building like, say, a biological warfare facility, if you lose your SA server maybe all the doors lock everyone inside, and the system automatically sends out an emergency alarm to your military backup. Personally, I prefer the 'bomb the biometric database and all doors open to everyone' because I am one of those people who love chaos, but I could see an argument for either option.
Outboarduniform Posted October 9, 2015 Author Posted October 9, 2015 Yeah , I do agree with Jack in this , it would be that sensitive areas would be locked down , and other areas just open to everyone
Zidanyia Posted October 9, 2015 Posted October 9, 2015 And our Brig which is entirely surrounded by highly visible areas, and is mostly surrounded by more locked down areas even harder to escape from then the brig itself. Zid, the code side of this would not be that hard. You'd store the fingerprint data in one place, and then put a bunch of access flags on it. When the door needs to know if you're authorized, it reads your fingerprint hash, checks if the server still exists, and then checks if the doors access bits match the access permissions the computer has on that hash. It's a type check and a dictionary lookup. Maybe not quite as fast as the ID test we use now, but we don't do that many of them (maybe ten to twenty per second at the very highest), so it won't be noticeable. The real question is what happens if the authentication server goes down. Like, in a normal building, when you lose your security authentication server, the doors all unlock because it's assumed to be an emergency like a fire drill and it's more important to save people then to prevent access. In a high security building like, say, a biological warfare facility, if you lose your SA server maybe all the doors lock everyone inside, and the system automatically sends out an emergency alarm to your military backup. Personally, I prefer the 'bomb the biometric database and all doors open to everyone' because I am one of those people who love chaos, but I could see an argument for either option. I now hate this 6x more because of that. If it gets implemented, I think it's safe to say in good faith that antagonists will make the biometric database their first target 100% of the time just so that they can walk through every single airlock, provided it's located on-station.
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