Peaceful "Antags"

[Jboy2000000]

This has been something that Ive been genuinely curious about for awhile. Why all the hate for peaceful antags? I know the name for the roles is literally short antagonist, but this is a heavy RP server, and as people are always so quick to point out, there are many avenues for RP, and that it shouldn't be limited. So, why should these special roles, where their main role is to enhance other player's roleplay, be limited?

[Garnascus]

Because its /boring/. What part of "antag" implies any sort of peace? You are given leave to cause chaos/conflict and to have the crew reminded that this is NOT a safe place to be. antag are also given access to items (traitors) or hilariously OP powers (lings, wizards and vampires). You are literally DESIGNED to cause panic and chaos and if you are incapable or unwilling to do that then you shouldn't select it as a possibility in your preferences.

Also peace lings infuriate me the most. You are not your character anymore. A changeling MURDERED you and took your place.

[nanotoxin]

The antags only job is to provide a different sort of RP than what you get in extended. Being aggresive or hostile doesn't make the RP any better.

[Jboy2000000]

I can understand why lings, vamps, ops, and traitors would be hostile and "antags," but antag is just a term that was given to them. In reality, they're just like any other player on the server. Given a job, but no set goals. Like I said, their only one, hardset "job" is to create situations for people's enjoyment. Is a doctor who preforms surgery any less valid than a doctor who treats someone in the ER? No, they're still doing their job. Is an officer who shoots down a mass murder any less valid than an officer who handles the paperwork and prisoners in the brig? No, they're still doing their job. Is a wizard who teleports onto the station and RP's peacefully with the crew any less valid than a wizard who has a quest to turn the station into DnD by force? Id say not.

[Garnascus]

You are given TOOLS and RULES specifically designed to cause conflict. This isn't figuring out a creative way to use a set of skills its using mechanics that are BY DESIGN violently opposed to any sort of peace. Peaceful antag turn the round into "extended but a few people get to interact with a guy who can do a few cool things wooooo!"

[jackfractal]

There is the question of social contract. People dislike 'peaceful antags' because the expectation is that people in those roles won't be peaceful. This plays into the game modes that people vote for, and people's expectations for how they're going to spend their time.

If people vote wizard expecting insane plots and not knowing right from wrong, and they get stealth-wiz who does nothing, or peace-wiz, who spends the whole round talking amiably to the Captain, then they're going to get annoyed.

[Jboy2000000]

How is a wizard who tries to kill people going to fit more people than a peace wizard? Let me ask, who gets involved with an angry, killing wizard? Security to stop them, and die, medical to heal those who are injured or killed, and command to a lesser to degree to coordinate those two. What about the poor bartender who looses business and RP during code blue and code red? Or the cargo staff that have the same fate?

Also, show me where there is a rule that antags MUST create conflict and chaos, show me that rule. Because the only rule for antags beside the obvious ones is

CONTRIBUTE TO OTHERS' ENJOYMENT.

And the ONLY reason a wizard gets tied up talking to the captain or security is because of people who don't like peaceful "antags" and want them to get to the point of fighting.

[Garnascus]

If I could make it an explicit rule I might, with a few modifications. I'm also not interested in pretending there's only 100% peaceful wizards or fully violent antags. Although any deviation towards the "peace" end of the spectrum just results in awful, boring RP.

This is one of things you can logically assume "hey theirs both sides here!" until you actually play enough to see one side is not only boring and uninteresting, its counter intuitive to antags and game design.

[Jboy2000000]

Forget "game design" for a minute, this is a heavy RP server. If you want to go that route, we should just tell all antags to go Goon-tastic and kill everyone on sight, because thats the kind of game SS13 started from, and thats where the game modes come from, designed for brutal murder, not RP.

And isn't what your saying sound a bit tyrannical? "I don't like when people do this. I wish I could make people who do that get punished."

[Frances]

I've seen shitty "regular" antagging and shitty "peaceful" antagging.

A wizard who does nothing but hold a two-hour meeting with the captain behind closed shutters is roughly the peaceful equivalent of a wizard spamming firebombs and ei-nath while teleporting around.

We had a peaceful wizard a while back who roleplayed coming from an alternate universe were Aurora was a medieval fantasy kingdom, with Tajarans and Humans race-switched (so humans were basically considered the untrustworthy underlings of the superior Tajaran masters). They had a whole plot ongoing with a malfunctioning teleport device/spell (toying with the actual blink spell) which was increasingly wearing down on the wizard's body.

There wasn't any overt conflict, yet we managed to get most of security, medical, and science involved, and pretty much all of the station did know there was something going on, over a relatively extended period of time, which is more than many aggressive antags can claim to have provoked. So I do believe peaceful antags can achieve something good, though they come with the same faults generic ones do.

(And to give credit to the player, it was Sue.)

[Garnascus]

Forget "game design" for a minute, this is a heavy RP server. If you want to go that route, we should just tell all antags to go Goon-tastic and kill everyone on sight, because thats the kind of game SS13 started from, and thats where the game modes come from, designed for brutal murder, not RP.

And isn't what your saying sound a bit tyrannical? "I don't like when people do this. I wish I could make people who do that get punished."

 

Being Heavy-rp doesn't excuse us from the game design.... Actually yes, sometimes a dash of goon could do us some good. That is, antags resorting to violence and mass chaos but of course role-playing it.

Tyrannical? Of course it is! Its an awful idea to punish someone for playing badly but I can't help wanting to remove a drab and dreary aspect.

[Jboy2000000]

You aren't saying you want to punish someone for playing badly, you're saying you want to punish people who are following the rules, because you don't like how they're playing, even though other people do like it.

[Garnascus]

You aren't saying you want to punish someone for playing badly, you're saying you want to punish people who are following the rules, because you don't like how they're playing, even though other people do like it.

 

Ehhh... Sort of. Both sides of this aargumentcan technically fit into this "contribute to others enjoyment" rule, well at least on paper. In reality i consider peaceful antags to at worst be a slap in the face to everyone who voted for non-extended and at best only a marginable improvement over just having extended.

Therefore I consider "peaceful antags" to be playing badly.

[Frances]

Some people vote non-extended to see shit go down, some people vote it simply to be surprised.

What's wrong with a bit of both happening?

[Jboy2000000]

Yes, they're both working to contribute to other people's enjoyment, the biggest, pretty much only rule for an antag. So, why should one be punishable, and the other not?

[Guest Marlon Phoenix]

I feel cheated when I end what I thought was an extended round to see there were antags the entire time. Specifically, changlings and vampires that are peaceful and don't try to eat anyone should lose the rights to play those antags because it's such a glaring disregard for the round type and their own expectations. It makes me so annoyed.

Peace traitors and wizards are a case by case thing. It depends on what they do. But they're supposed to cause a conflict of some kind.

[Jboy2000000]

I can see why peace lings, vampires and traitors make people angry, those are stupid.

But where does it say, anywhere, that wizards are SUPPOSED to cause conflict? They're there to contribute to RP. Why does conflict=RP, but Creating RP peacefully=Bad?

[Garnascus]

I feel cheated when I end what I thought was an extended round to see there were antags the entire time. Specifically, changlings and vampires that are peaceful and don't try to eat anyone should lose the rights to play those antags because it's such a glaring disregard for the round type and their own expectations. It makes me so annoyed.

Peace traitors and wizards are a case by case thing. It depends on what they do. But they're supposed to cause a conflict of some kind.

 

Hmmm it might be more fair to consider it a case by case thing for traitors and wizards. Maaaaybe in just sick and tired of seeing traitors act like they aren't even a traitor and wizards RP with the heads of staff for two hours.

[Jboy2000000]

To be fair, that isn't fun for wizards either, and the only reason they get stuck in that is because people want to push wizards to be that hostile "antag," even if its not what the other player wants.

Example.

Edited October 10, 2015 by Guest

[Alberyk]

I am not a big fan of peaceful antags, but, I did see some "peaceful" wizard rounds with some quite interesting ideas. So, if you are going to be peaceful, a good gimmick or plot is the best way.

[Garnascus]

I can see why peace lings, vampires and traitors make people angry, those are stupid.

But where does it say, anywhere, that wizards are SUPPOSED to cause conflict? They're there to contribute to RP. Why does conflict=RP, but Creating RP peacefully=Bad?

 

its REALLY simple and I don't understand how you can just ignore it because of "high RP"

The role "wizard" is designed in every possible way for conflict. That is getting into secure areas and messing with the crew. At this point we are just going in circles.

[Jboy2000000]

We're not going in circles, Im asking again because there aren't answers. Where in these posts, was it answered where it says wizards are made to cause conflict? Where is the answer to my question about why conflict automatically creates more, better RP than RP created peacefully?

[Frances]

The role "wizard" is designed in every possible way for conflict. That is getting into secure areas and messing with the crew. At this point we are just going in circles.

And SS13 is designed in every possible way to do incredibly trolly shit, like farting into people's faces and killing them by blasting your ass off and crushing their head in the resulting explosion.

Let's not forget HRP was created by playing on the hidden and unexpected potential of certain of the platform's features. Surely if that parallel can be drawn, there should be better arguments for why non-combat antags can't be a thing.

[Garnascus]

There isn't, we aren't goon. You can't sow someone's ass to their face, shove a lighter up your butt or fart explosions. And toeing the line with too much trolley shot can potentially be a rule violation.

[Jboy2000000]

So what the game is and isn't designed to be is only an effective argument if the arguing point is beneficial to you? Because thats what you just said. Wizard is designed to infiltrate and cause cause conflict, thats your point. Frances' point says the ENTIRE game design was meant to weird, funky, and not at all HRP, yet its not at all an arguing point.