Regarding issues with the DO Corp

[Gollee]

I'm being told recently that a good few people have little to no faith in the DO team, or they think a member is biased against them, or other such things.

I'm rather annoyed right now, because this is all going on in private channels, and just getting worse and worse and worse, without anyone coming to me.

I would like to state that:

• I am not a monster.
  
  I am not going to ignore issues.
  
  I would not say I am biased against any player, given how long I have sat out of the game.
  
  I am not going to play metafriends and allow things to happen because I like the person doing it.

I'm sad, and rather upset that people aren't willing to talk to me about issues they are having, I really do try to build up a good relation with players where possible, and I am one of the people who end up feeling very guilty after doing something that may have upset someone accidentally ((If it's a legitimate thing, like a valid complaint/ban request/Incident report, no such qualms, before anyone brings that up.))

I've been with the community for years, I have seen most of you join, people I knew from Apollo leave, if you have an issue with the DO team, or even with me, about other things, tell me, and they can be sorted out, I, just now, had a discussion with a player over the Byond pager, who I had wronged, and it got sorted out, issues were dealt with, problems were hashed out, and things are on the mend.

I do not want anyone here to think that I am some sort of biased idiot who is just going to laugh at your problems, I'm here to help, so let me.

[ForgottenTraveller]

And for one. We don't just go around handing out this and that especially white list suspensions. Or very nearly anything permanent.

From the heads of staff sub forum for you general lot. Here is a list of the current things DOs have in effect.

Active Injunctions:

• 10/11/2457 - No contact ordered between Karima Mo'Taki and Sura Cantara pending further investigation. Due to reported prior assault, security members are to ensure this injunction is not violated.

Active Suspensions:

• 09/26/2457 - Katelynn Mcmullen - Suspended from Research Director, may not handle weaponry (guns, force gloves, grenades, etc.) or combat mechs (Gygaxes and Durands).
  
  10/10/1457 - Desiree Green - Suspended from Robotics. Expires on 10/24/2457.

And the only permanent IC result was a firing of Jamison Stamos. For repeated and unabated offenses. It took almost two months with admins of every level involved.

Nothing major or permanent is done without investigation on both sides and any witnesses we can get our hands on. And even then as whitelists, or even single character removals from positions go. We have to work our ways up the admin lists getting it check off stage by stage, to ensure it is fair and not to harsh.

That said. You act like you wanna get fired. Expect a call from us at some point. At least to say. Pull your head in.

[Killerhurtz]

Y'know, I'm thinking it may be an extension of user's "fuck the police/the system" mentality. Because I didn't even KNOW people had that much beef with the DO's.

And I don't get it either, because you guys are bloody awesome.

[Guest Marlon Phoenix]

I'll try to be the voice for people who may otherwise be too intimidated or whatever it is that would keep them from posting public grievances.

Quite a few people have spoken to me about their dissatisfaction with the DO Corps. There are DO individuals that make spiteful or passive aggressive comments at them in LOOC, or place extreme expectations on things like paperwork, procedure, and faxes.

As someone with access to DOsay and DO chats, I quietly witness a lot of negativity from DO players, if not outright spite.

My own Modus operandus is that paperwork sent my way, both as a DO and HoP, is legitimate and valid if it's legible and reasonable. Outright ignoring a fax because it used a format from another server is just rude.

There is also the problem of the veeeeeeeeeeeeery slow way the Corps operates. I admit I'm part o the problem here - I work and go to classes every single day, and have lost the time to fully dedicate myself to Incident Reports.

However, it's less of a problem of how much free time I have, and more of how I am able to spend official time as a DO to do DO business. A lot of investigating is pulling teeth. Before I managed to push the 'auto-punishment after the suspect is a no-show', it took ages to do anything. It still takes ages, because it is demanded by administration that zero OOC consideration be taken at any level in any investigation. As well as this, DO must have their hands held during all official business. They can't enter the station to conduct interviews without an admin escort, they can't summon people to Odin frequently to be immune from antags for. . . Some reason, and any punishment that isn't a fluffy slap on the wrist (sensitivity training, a warning, pay dock) has to go through: Other DO's, Gollee, Tishinastalker, Jennelale, and Scopes.

I still support this organization and 100% believe it's doing good, but there are still critical issues that keep it a byzantine organization and holds it back from being able to properly police player conduct through IC means.

[Tainavaa]

Just gonna drop by because I want to see the DO corps be a nice thing we have.

 

I quietly witness a lot of negativity from DO players, if not outright spite.

 

This, along with a few choice words from you Gollee, is why I believe the DO Corps is a channel to fulfill peoples OOC agendas. I'm sure there are people in it strictly for the roleplay and nothing else (and that should be the standard) but I'm also sure there are DO's that use it to fulfill their OOC agenda. Regulate roleplay to their standards. Or as I like to put it, acting as IC admins.

The way I see it, goes something along the lines of

Obviously most cases are not in terms of firing but you get the idea.

[Frances]

I'm sure there are people in it strictly for the roleplay and nothing else (and that should be the standard) but I'm also sure there are DO's that use it to fulfill their OOC agenda. Regulate roleplay to their standards. Or as I like to put it, acting as IC admins.

If that's the case then they've been doing a pretty poor job, considering the general complaints come from how devoid of consequences their interventions are.

[Jboy2000000]

I think Jackboot and Frances have said it all already. I didn't know about how DO's have to go through Dante's Inferno to actually punish someone. If Id know that way back when Skull made that rating thing, Id have having been far more kind in rating the DO corp. I thought the DO's corp was meant to be a way to report people, WITHOUT OOC/Admin interference, why should DO's need to get permission from every admin in the universe and wait months to be allowed to handle someone? Its not fair to the corp members, its not fair to the reported person, and its espically not fair to the people who make incidence reports thinking they might actually get somewhere for once.

[Guest]

You're right, jboy, it's not fair.

The issue is, what can actually be done? It's not like the administration isn't paying attention and needs a wake-up call, I think they're well-aware of the problems that make being a DO just about as useful as an IAA in-game these days.

[Jboy2000000]

Id rather not have any admins in my DO soup, but if they need to be, shouldn't just one suffice? I think it'd be fine with just Jen or Scopes, I think the best person they'd need to consult if they do go the adminless route would be Jackboot. I don't really know the dynamics, but isn't Jackboot one of those high ranking DO guys? And, to me at least, he seems to be one of the most respected DO's, OOC wise.

[Guest Marlon Phoenix]

Id rather not have any admins in my DO soup, but if they need to be, shouldn't just one suffice? I think it'd be fine with just Jen or Scopes, I think the best person they'd need to consult if they do go the adminless route would be Jackboot. I don't really know the dynamics, but isn't Jackboot one of those high ranking DO guys? And, to me at least, he seems to be one of the most respected DO's, OOC wise.

 

There aren't any divisions or hierarchy; a DO is a DO.

Admin oversight is necessary because it prevents abuses, but my reservations are that there are so many hoops to jump through, and displeasing one admin can bring the whole thing to a screeching halt. I've had admins go over Tishina's head to voice grievances with x DO action I wanted to take/did take, or demanding it outright not go through. It's, once again, just a matter of cohesion.

And I appreciate the vote of confidence, but I could never manage the DO division in an administrative capacity while also running the lore team and my other million commitments.

[Killerhurtz]

I feel so bad for you DOs. This shit needs to be fixed.

[Gollee]

I feel so bad for you DOs. This shit needs to be fixed.

 

You can help be reporting poor DO activities to me, whether they are actually in as DOs, or in LOOC, or anything like that.

[Killerhurtz]

Will do - then again, I have less DO contact that I'd wish, but yeah I will.

[Jboy2000000]

However, it's less of a problem of how much free time I have, and more of how I am able to spend official time as a DO to do DO business. A lot of investigating is pulling teeth. Before I managed to push the 'auto-punishment after the suspect is a no-show', it took ages to do anything. It still takes ages, because it is demanded by administration that zero OOC consideration be taken at any level in any investigation. As well as this, DO must have their hands held during all official business. They can't enter the station to conduct interviews without an admin escort, they can't summon people to Odin frequently to be immune from antags for. . . Some reason, and any punishment that isn't a fluffy slap on the wrist (sensitivity training, a warning, pay dock) has to go through: Other DO's, Gollee, Tishinastalker, Jennelale, and Scopes.

.

I just noticed this. How, at all, does that makes sense? Admins want zero OOC consideration, unless its their own, admin OOC consideration? Isn't this extremely biased and hypocritical?

[Skull132]

I just noticed this. How, at all, does that makes sense? Admins want zero OOC consideration, unless its their own, admin OOC consideration? Isn't this extremely biased and hypocritical?

 

Yay, assumptions. Again.

The levels of checks are there to make sure everything was followed properly, and that all tickboxes were filled which, yes, is an OOC consideration. So you're partially right, but it's there to exist as an oversight mechanic, not a way to influence decisions, or for the admins to get their way, as you are so pleasantly implying. Oh, and yes, it is cumbersome as fuck.

[Jboy2000000]

I've had admins go over Tishina's head to voice grievances with x DO action I wanted to take/did take, or demanding it outright not go through.

 

The reason Im "implying" is because I heard straight from the horse's mouth that it's almost happened before.

[Skull132]

I've had admins go over Tishina's head to voice grievances with x DO action I wanted to take/did take, or demanding it outright not go through.

 

The reason Im "implying" is because I heard straight from the horse's mouth that it's almost happened before.

 

While actually lacking the information necessary to make a substantiated claim. Do you know why they didn't wish for said action to go through? Cause the main chatter I hear between the admins and DOs is about a silly papertrail not being left or protocol not being followed to the tee somewhere, and that gets actions scrubbed.

[Xelnagahunter]

I've had admins go over Tishina's head to voice grievances with x DO action I wanted to take/did take, or demanding it outright not go through.

 

The reason Im "implying" is because I heard straight from the horse's mouth that it's almost happened before.

 

While actually lacking the information necessary to make a substantiated claim. Do you know why they didn't wish for said action to go through? Cause the main chatter I hear between the admins and DOs is about a silly papertrail not being left or protocol not being followed to the tee somewhere, and that gets actions scrubbed.

It's like bureaucratic red tape. If you didn't file such and such properly, the actions filed for don't take place. The admin team, from my mostly uneducated stance, is acting as the people who check that t's were crossed and i's were dotted. They then be sure everything was triple stamped and notarized before allowing relevant authorities to see it so that they can consider letting it happen.

[Jboy2000000]

That doesn't make the situation any better. The DO corps was supposed to be an IC way to deal with things not bad enough to make character complaints. Now IC paper trails are getting dragged out into OOC, reports get dragged on to an inch of their life. That kind of thing never would have happened if admins didn't intervene like people thought it would be. So new we have people not wanting to make IR reports because no one ever really gets punished, and in they do its takes months, so you get people making character complaints like what happened with Meowy and Lyar, but at the same time, you have people who don't want to make official complaints either, because they have the same process where anything and everything get dragged on into infinity, and people don't even know if those people are even actually punished because the only feedback at the end of a complaint thread is always just "its been handled."

[Skull132]

No, it doesn't. But your stance on a lot of things seems very extreme and grounded on assumptions, not actual analysis. Hence me jumping in.

Anyways, the issue present is that there's too many chiefs, and not enough indians. A classic problem, really. One of the cleanest way to probably deal with this issue to is actually empower the leader of the DOs, and pull the admin-side of it back to how it was when I set the system up: a liaison or two passively tracking, mainly to keep the Head Admin in the loop. Every other element is pretty much redundant, and if anyone still feels that those pieces need to be present, then this should be flipped to a question of, "How can we actually set up the DOs so that we can trust them?" Nothing too complex about it v.v

[Jboy2000000]

You could just cut the admin intervention, find a DO a large group of people respect, make them the head/vice-head of the DO corp. Theres no way to completely cut the OOC element from punishments that cut in OOC involvement, so you need to find someone that people respect OOCly, if their punishment eventually lands in the hands of someone they respect and trust, they'll be less likely to argue their eventual punishments, at least from an OOC standpoint.

[Skull132]

The Head Admin is still responsible for the actions of the DOs, though. So he needs some level of contact with the team. Whether it's leader to leader, or liaison to leader, that's up to him to decide.

Also, the issue is not the players trusting the DOs. It's the admins trusting the DOs.

[Jboy2000000]

The head/co-head could keep in touch with Doom, or whoever is the headmin nowadays. And the players trusting the DO corp should be the most important thing, because if the players can't trust the DO corp, no one is going to use it. Then all the time and effort put in it will be wasted because of overbearing admins. If that happens, the DO players will probably just end up resenting the admins for ruining the good thing they could have had.

[Skull132]

That's a detail for them to touch up, though.

And no, what is important changes depending on the situation. As it stands, the important thing is that the DOs be actually allowed to spread their wings. Once we're there, then we can start focusing on the actual flight (and the player-DO relationship).

[Guest]

Jboy. As Skull has already stated, players not trusting the DO corp is not the problem. The fact of the matter is, the DO corps needs to be able, and allowed, to do their job in the first place.

Considering how the administrator-liasons (as well as unaffiliated admins/mods who come in and shut it down for whatever reason, if I heard an earlier statement correctly?) seem to do more micro-management than macro-management, I can sort of see why that's an issue.

Since we heard mention of the Head Admin, could we hear from him about his thoughts or plans on the matter of the DO Corps?

Edit: Thanks skull for ninjaposting.