Fear RP (Or, why Adrenaline doesn't make you a ninja)

[Farcry11]

So, there was very recently a heated debate about fear RP in OOC. The whole thing arose from an unarmed, non-combat-trained doctor rushing a nuke op, disarming him, picking up his gun, reloading it on the fly, and killing him with it.

This should not happen. No way. No how. There's a reason nuke ops, changelings, and other antags tend to be so violent and "ganky". It's because they KNOW that the average player would sooner try to rush and kill them than actually RP being a real, normal person. If I were a nuke op, and I came upon multiple unarmed civilians, my first instinct would be to put a bullet in someone- as a warning and as self defense. Because in situations where you and your friends are in danger, the most primal human emotion ceases to matter, right?

"But Farcry, fear = adrenaline and adrenaline = badass motherfucker mode!" No. Adrenaline does NOT transform you from a scared civilian in to fucking Rambo. If you want to refute me on this, post evidence, but I'm 99.99% sure that that is not how that shit works. At all. The adrenaline excuse is a lame cop-out that many people use to avoid fear RP.

But why do people avoid fear RP? Are they afraid of losing? As far as I was aware, we're playing this game to tell an engaging, at least somewhat believable story- not to win. We should start acting like it. And this is why I implore all of you unarmed noncombatants out there... The next time an unspeakable awful transforming monster barrels down the hall, or you're confronted with a trained, well equipped terrorist, or a wizard is summoning hell-demons... Don't rush them. Don't take their weapons out of their hands and murder them and end their round. Actually act like a human being- you know, roleplay. Because this a roleplaying server.

That's my rant on the matter. Post your opinions, because truly, this is a debate that needs to be had.

[VikingPingvin]

I have to agree.

The doctor disarmed the operative shooting it multiple times. The op fled outside arrivals and the doctor chased him.

Chased him while there were dying people on the floor beside her. It would be logical to remain there check their lifesigns etc, and not

kill him because that is goddamn illogical. Just because you overcome an enemy(which in some situations is fine) does not mean you are granted a magical buff motherfucker power that lets you kill all of them.

[Guest Marlon Phoenix]

I agree. We have so many hero's and bad-ass mary sues. No one is ever afraid unless it's a ruse until they disarm you and give off 'so cool and edgy' one liners before unloading your own clip into your face. People in general are far too quick to robust.

As for the specific incident that sparked this, I have to agree that it was annoying. When an armed individual walks into a crowded area, people don't zerg-rush him. We have a depressingly long list of lone individuals in crowded areas. What do civilians do? They run away because they don't have a huge adrenaline boner giving them an inability to feel fear. If you're filled with adrenaline, you don't function like superman. Adrenaline shuts down your logical thinking and kicks your body into overdrive to make you get the heck out of there.

http://www.policeone.com/training/articles/1271860-The-adrenaline-dump-Its-more-than-just-breathing/

"Secondary arousal can be a problem. It can be hard to control, so it interferes with performance. It can be distracting and affect concentration. It can exaggerate the performance inhibiting effects of high stress."

http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/adrenal.htm

"While they can say anything they want in the safety of schools, gyms or internet forums, this information can -- and will -- get you killed in a violent confrontation.

Or it will result in you being thrown in prison if you don't know how to keep it in check."

"Although it has been called the "Fight or Flight Hormone" adrenaline can be better described as 'Do it NOW!!! hormones."

"a lot of time -- especially under the influence of an adrenaline dump -- different things will be going on and you run the risk of freezing. For example, it doesn't matter if you have enough adrenaline in your system to give an elephant a heart attack ... if you don't have a strategy that you are willing to bet your life on then odds are you will freeze or flounder.""

Edited October 25, 2014 by Marlon Phoenix

[Ihmiklasik]

So if I am right, you think that it is a good idea to shoot people just to make them obey. Do you have any idea what you are talking about? I am not trying to act hostile there, but if you would just randomly shoot a person from a group that is not even restrained, then you can be more than SURE that your ass will be kicked.

You have stated in OOC that round that andrenaline causes nothing but fear and apparently does what? Take away your bladder control and you basically just piss yourself? That is absolutely wrong, do you even know what andrenaline does? Did you know that because of andrenaline, a human can push their bodies to the limit? Pain is not as intense as it is used to be, their muscles are going into overdrive JUST so they can get out of danger quickly.

There have even been various incidents where a man had his ENTRAILS blown out, and due to andrenaline he could still run for the next two hundred meters before finally bleeding out to death. If you claim that you know everything about the moment of a shock, emotions and andrenaline, then you do not.

As for the fact that I, a medical doctor with no training in firearms or close combat, disarmed a syndicate operative and killed him... Well, I do believe that it was justified. While the warden was getting shot after he clearly SURRENDERED, by a trigger-happy syndicate operative, I have decided to try and ambush him, KNOWING that the other person will come out and help me. In real life, your gun is not suddenly going to blow up just because you have never shot it before. Even a simple villager who never used a gun can effectively use it to kill a 'trained and professional' operative in SHORT range. It is not even art, people are not clueless.

Anger, fear, it all guides you to do strange things, some of them which can be a great threat to your life and you do not even know it.

I also want to sincerely apologize for that moment where people claimed it was bullshit that a medical doctor managed to murder a syndicate operative. It honestly WAS a mistake on my part, even if I disagree with Farcry11 on the whole 'everyone is totally submissive towards a man with a gun', I still believe that I have gone a bit overboard with it. But it depends on the human mind and their own self-preservation. One can fear for his life, and second can be so self-sacrifical that they would rather lose their own lives to save others.

In my opinion, both sides have messed up greatly. We have not RPed everything out properly as we went silly in the arrivals shuttle with our pseudo-RP. We casually asked an armed and unknown person to help us out, they have shouted out a clear threat that could only tell us that he was going to kill us, and right after he SHOT the warden, there is no way to make a person think differently.

This is my response to it, and I hope that this whole incident will be quickly forgotten.

[Guest Marlon Phoenix]

You both appear to have a poor grasp on the full details of what adrenaline does, whereas Farcry at least is within the right ballpark. Please read the second link provided, 'lasik. In any case, here is the full list of what it does:

 

Time Distortion -- Time slows or speeds up. This is the proverbial 'slow motion' effect. This is a result of your entire consciousness laser focusing on the danger.

Depth perception/Visual Distortion -- Things appear closer or larger than they are. For example the person waving a knife at you from across the room looks like he's inches away, suddenly grown 10 feet and waving a machete in your face. The reason for this distortion is you are entirely focused on the 'threat.'

Tunnel Vision -- Closely related to visual distortion, your peripheral vision can drop away and ALL you see is the threat.

Auditory Exclusion -- Your hearing can just go away because every brain cell you has is focused on the threat. To the point of you often won't hear gunshots going of within just a few feet.

Pain Tolerance -- You don't feel things that would normally cause you to squeal in pain. The damage is still done to you, but you don't necessarily feel the same level of pain. Some people don't feel it at all.

Speed and Strength Increase -- Under adrenaline you can do amazing feats of strength and speed. Unfortunately, this doesn't make you invincible. While stories of mothers lifting cars off their children are true, what you don't hear about is the fact that they tore muscles, tendons and ruined their backs doing it.

Fine Motor Movement Decay -- while you will be able to run faster than you ever have before, forget twirling a quarter in your fingers. Trembling is also common. This is why reloading a revolver while under fire is harder than the larger, less precise actions of reloading an automatic pistol.

Changes in blood flow/heartbeat - Not only will your heartbeat and blood pressure shoot up, but inside your body veins will constrict and expand to divert blood to where it is most needed to oxygenate your body.

Changes in respiratory rate -- Your breathing will change. Anything from a fast, sharp inhale to hyperventilating is possible.

Unconscious Muscle Tension -- some muscles will clinch up, some will relax. And you'll ache in places you weren't even hit.

Mono-emotion/Emotional Detachment -- Usually there will be one overwhelming emotion blocking every other emotion out (e.g. fear or anger). However, the reverse can also be true. There can be a sense of emotional detachment as the body functions to achieve an end. This is more common among individuals experienced operating in crisis.

Bladder/Bowel Release -- Although not exactly an 'adrenal response,' your body jettisoning extra weight (feces and urine) IS common while facing danger and when adrenalized. This is part of the 'fight or flight' response that adrenaline influences.

Erection -- Yes, this commonly occurs among men in response to a violent conflict with another person.

 

TL;DR if you're going to play the 'adrenaline made me do it' card then you better damn well poop yourself while doing it.

[Ihmiklasik]

You both appear to have a poor grasp on the full details of what adrenaline does, whereas Farcry at least is within the right ballpark. Please read the second link provided, 'lasik. In any case, here is the full list of what it does:

 

Time Distortion -- Time slows or speeds up. This is the proverbial 'slow motion' effect. This is a result of your entire consciousness laser focusing on the danger.

Depth perception/Visual Distortion -- Things appear closer or larger than they are. For example the person waving a knife at you from across the room looks like he's inches away, suddenly grown 10 feet and waving a machete in your face. The reason for this distortion is you are entirely focused on the 'threat.'

Tunnel Vision -- Closely related to visual distortion, your peripheral vision can drop away and ALL you see is the threat.

Auditory Exclusion -- Your hearing can just go away because every brain cell you has is focused on the threat. To the point of you often won't hear gunshots going of within just a few feet.

Pain Tolerance -- You don't feel things that would normally cause you to squeal in pain. The damage is still done to you, but you don't necessarily feel the same level of pain. Some people don't feel it at all.

Speed and Strength Increase -- Under adrenaline you can do amazing feats of strength and speed. Unfortunately, this doesn't make you invincible. While stories of mothers lifting cars off their children are true, what you don't hear about is the fact that they tore muscles, tendons and ruined their backs doing it.

Fine Motor Movement Decay -- while you will be able to run faster than you ever have before, forget twirling a quarter in your fingers. Trembling is also common. This is why reloading a revolver while under fire is harder than the larger, less precise actions of reloading an automatic pistol.

Changes in blood flow/heartbeat - Not only will your heartbeat and blood pressure shoot up, but inside your body veins will constrict and expand to divert blood to where it is most needed to oxygenate your body.

Changes in respiratory rate -- Your breathing will change. Anything from a fast, sharp inhale to hyperventilating is possible.

Unconscious Muscle Tension -- some muscles will clinch up, some will relax. And you'll ache in places you weren't even hit.

Mono-emotion/Emotional Detachment -- Usually there will be one overwhelming emotion blocking every other emotion out (e.g. fear or anger). However, the reverse can also be true. There can be a sense of emotional detachment as the body functions to achieve an end. This is more common among individuals experienced operating in crisis.

Bladder/Bowel Release -- Although not exactly an 'adrenal response,' your body jettisoning extra weight (feces and urine) IS common while facing danger and when adrenalized. This is part of the 'fight or flight' response that adrenaline influences.

Erection -- Yes, this commonly occurs among men in response to a violent conflict with another person.

 

TL;DR if you're going to play the 'adrenaline made me do it' card then you better damn well poop yourself while doing it.

I honestly agree with you, I can't argue about things you have found there. The thing is, both sides have messed up greatly, the situation at arrivals was so ridiculous that I don't think it could even be considered IC. Every human is different, and it is really hard to figure out what emotions your character is feeling right now in a 2D spaceman game. I'm sorry for suddenly going all berzerk-like and murdering that syndicate. I have honestly perceived it as the right thing to do, at least for me. It was just my vision, and I doubt I can just bend it to make somebody else like how I operate.

I'd like to apologize the syndicate operative whom I have killed in a, let's just say it, ridiculous way.

[Guest Marlon Phoenix]

It's totes fine, since you've apologized.

Just, in the future, if you disarm the syndie in a period of extreme distress and self defense a better method might be to shoot a few times while NOPE'ing the hell out of there. Or if he runs out himself, dropping the gun in horror and freaking out before doing whatever your training would have you do. In which case being a doctor - helping the wounded.

Defending yourself is okay, but shooting, reloading, and then chasing a syndie down... Notsomuch.

[Farcry11]

But aside from this particular incident, we should discuss the issue is a whole.

Which I would do, except I'm hella tired right now. Will post tomorrow or somefink.

[Frances]

If you get robusted, the fault is generally on you for letting yourself get robusted. We'll keep punishing people who act like big damn heroes in unrealistic situations, as they're reported to us. However, one thing.

If you attempt to act like a hero, and fail. Expect full consequences for it. The traitor pointing a gun at you? It's not just for show. Antags are supposed to provide you with interesting roleplay, but if you take advantage of that to decide you're invincible and can do whatever you want with them, you will get shot and killed, with roleplay or not.

And antags, if you see someone do something dumb to the point that it breaks all common sense, please, do punish them for it.

[Rusty Shackleford]

Erection -- Yes, this commonly occurs among men in response to a violent conflict with another person.

 

[Tenenza]

Before going into any battle, always assume you will lose.

Keep this in mind before attacking the Armed Murderer/Shapeshifting Horror/Magical Jerk/Trained Soldier/Alien Monster/Assistant with a toolbox/Ninja/Meteor.

Does your character want to die?

Will they continue to live if they don't attack and just stay where they are?

Will help arrive?

These are important things to ask yourself.

[Rusty Shackleford]

People always underestimate the value of hostage RP. If the round goes on long enough, you could even do some proto-Stockholm syndrome RP.

[duck]

As much as I hate antagrushers, I hate antags who don't have the guts to follow through with their threats more. If someone charges you and you have a big gun, for goodness' sakes, shoot them. As a nuke op, your primary weapon is an automatic-- you can aim at up to five people at once. Five people. More often than not, that's the entire crowd. Everyone in the room. The aim function isn't just there to put a yellow-red circle thing over another person. It's there so that when they try to charge you, you try to make them dead. Automatically! There's even a fifty percent chance you blast them every time they try to disarm you. Burst works with this.

You're right that people don't generally rush people with guns in real life. That's partially because it doesn't work so well in real life. There are a. lot. of mechanics in place to ensure that it doesn't work here either. Stand always two tiles away and keep an eye on things as you type and they'll never reach you. If you have a gun pointed at someone, it better be in your active hand at all times.

also, firing warning shots into someone doesn't make people more likely to listen to you. it makes them more likely to rush you. people are naturally afraid of people with murder implements. shooting someone in front of them just means they jump to the (true) conclusion that you're willing and likely to shoot them next. the only thing holding those people in place is hope, and if you take that hope from them, you don't get to complain when you get shot to death. if you shoot the warden after he surrenders, that's an incredibly stupid thing to do and you deserve all the charging that's coming to you. all of it. i'd charge you.

Okayso here's how hostage taking works. You point a gun at them. They decide they don't want to buy your dietary lead supplement for the low, low price of disobedience. You don't put bullets in anyone because they're cooperating. And then one of you cuffs everyone while the other keeps the gun pointed while everyone lies down. Or, if you don't cuff everyone, then you at least herd them up. When they start getting uppity, that's when you shoot someone. To reinforce fear and punish disobedience. Not to shatter the image that they're going to get out of this okay if they cooperate. It's great to claim fear RP when things don't go your way, but that's just not how fear works.

[Baka]

I'm tired of people mowing down nuke ops with flashbangs because they have guns, goddamn. Especially in a hostage situation.

[Rusty Shackleford]

As a nuke op, your primary weapon is an automatic-- you can aim at up to five people at once. Five people.

 

MY ENTIRE LIFE IS A LIE

[Guest]

As a nuke op, your primary weapon is an automatic-- you can aim at up to five people at once. Five people.

 

MY ENTIRE LIFE IS A LIE

 

[Rechkalov]

Generally, I think it would be nice to see more people sitting in a corner, paralyzed with fear, waving back and forth - tried to do this a few times, but some absurdly courageous characters always grab me and robust their way out with their free hand.

Last occasion I remember, it was a wizzard round, and the wizzard -the sneaky bastard- focused on changing people into xenos.

So there I was, sitting in my psych office, with a xeno in front of me, sliming all over the place and talking right into my head, while I tried to merge with the wall.

Then again, I suppose that wasn't all that entertaining for the xeno... but I still think it's better than trying to inject him sleep toxins.

On comletely unrelated note, did you know you can handcuff aliens? Especially with those talking ones, it could be bloody cool to take one in for "questioning" and have the researchers converse with him.

Edit: An alien sitting in a shadow so dark I actually didn't notice him until he spoke and I looked for him, saying "I used to be Eric McArthur", is on my list as 2nd most creepy and/or brilliant thing I've seen on Aurora so far.

Edited October 26, 2014 by Guest

[Rechkalov]

also, firing warning shots into someone doesn't make people more likely to listen to you. it makes them more likely to rush you.

 

I beg different.

I think this is because most people like to imagine themselves as the heroes saving the situations, but I honestly doubt that if somebody shot the person beside you, your first "instict" would be to charge head on against the barrel of the gun.

Seeing your friend die in horrible pains would, in all likelihood, painfully remind you of your own mortality and how little it takes for you to buy one at the moment, too.

But it certainly doesn't make people listen to you, either - I imagine the stress would be too overwhelming for one to be even able to properly comprehend whatever the assaulter tries to explain to him.

[K0NFL1QT]

This is why Disarm shouldn't push over, and your level of Combat Skill should have some impact on weapon effectiveness. Untrained in Weapon Expertise? Congrats, you now fumble flashbangs and can't hit shit with a gun unless it's right in front of you. Untrained at Close Combat? Well, now trying to Disarm someone more skilled gets YOU pushed/disarmed. You get admin-boinked if you, as Security, start fixing windows or performing Surgery. Likewise, showing combat-competance if you're not Security should carry the same level of scrutiny and discouragement. However, people know how the mechanics work and will use that to steal an advantage in a life-or-death situation, usually while someone is typing, instead of submitting to the terrorist with a gun at your head who would shoot you dead for so much as stepping too close.

[Jakers457]

I'll give my bitcoin to discussion, and produce a couple of examples of how I and potentially other roleplayers react to antags.

Firstly, while playing my Engineer - Daniel Escher, he was attempting to repair a hacked door in the tunnels behind research. Once he had repaired the door and opened it, he encountered the bodies of two scientists and an armed Nuclear Operative. First response, run to the door to get away, but he already locked his sights onto me. Second response, declare that I surrender and put up my hands. Now being an engineer, I had a good amount of tools to beat the man with and if I were to powerplay I could have tied him up if I had the ability to. But no, I was playing an Engineer, with no combat experience who was at the gunpoint of a potentially highly trained terrorist. He inevitably held me hostage and having me as a body shield prevented him from being detained. And it was actually pretty cool from a roleplaying perspective.

Second time while playing Peter Stone, who of which is an experienced Officer and has been through many situations. He was patrolling tunnels due to reports of people going missing. All seemed to pretty clear despite the silent Engineer who was tagging along behind him and due to his EXPERIENCE in the force, he knew something was up. When he was about to call for back up, he found himself unable to speak and the Engineer was right behind him. This suspicious Engineer then attempted grab him, which caused Peter to push him away and run down the tunnel away from the unknown. But when he found himself cornered, he used his combat experience to subdue this strange man and took him into custody.

Some examples from two different characters. One who has no combat experience and one who had good enough experience to subdue a man trying to assault him. Now, when we discuss civilians taking down antags and then prattle on about how ADRENALINE DUUUDE, makes you able to fend off the enemy, you need to shut up. Because it comes down to, the flight or fight instinct... whether you're going to run to survive, or attempt to defend yourself, which kind of makes fighting off the antag seem like a viable solution. But then we have to take into account, whether your character actually has the ability or know how to properly fend off someone who might have an advantage of you.

So let's think of this in the real world, you're in an alley way at knife point. Now you think, because you've seen some knife defense videos, you have the know how to deal with this guy, especially with ADRENALIIIINE. But no, you'll end up getting stabbed a lot when you try to pull anything. So realistically, you'd either run for your life or give your money so that you may live. So take that situation into account, when your character meets someone who's probably stronger than them.

(Sorry if there's any typos, I've a bad habit of doing them.)

[Guest]

The most important thing to remember about fear RP, is that no matter how you do it, someone thinks you're doing it wrong.

[GlamourChariot]

The most important thing to remember about fear RP, is that no matter how you do it, someone thinks you're doing it wrong.

 

As an aside, the issue isn't so much "bad" Fear RP; the issue at hand is a near complete lack of Fear RP at all.

[Farcry11]

The most important thing to remember about fear RP, is that no matter how you do it, someone thinks you're doing it wrong.

 

As an aside, the issue isn't so much "bad" Fear RP; the issue at hand is a near complete lack of Fear RP at all.

 

This. I'd rather you did some shitty RP when I aimed my boomstick at you rather than run up, grab it out of my hands, and shoot me in the mouth with it.

I honestly don't get how this is such a prevalent thing on a hardcore RP server. A complete disregard for fear RP should be met with a temp ban, or at the very least a kick, because if people can't manage to restrain themselves, then the staff will have to.

[Rusty Shackleford]

I honestly don't get how this is such a prevalent thing on a hardcore RP server. A complete disregard for fear RP should be met with a temp ban, or at the very least a kick, because if people can't manage to restrain themselves, then the staff will have to.

 

Agreed.

[K0NFL1QT]

your level of Combat Skill should have some impact on weapon effectiveness. Untrained in Weapon Expertise? Congrats, you now fumble flashbangs and can't hit shit with a gun unless it's right in front of you. Untrained at Close Combat? Well, now trying to Disarm someone more skilled gets YOU pushed/disarmed. You get admin-boinked if you, as Security, start fixing windows or performing Surgery. Likewise, showing combat-competance if you're not Security should carry the same level of scrutiny and discouragement.

 

Quoting myself for truth. But yeah, you can either make the skills count for something so that civilian characters simply CAN'T overpower militant characters, or you can make enforcing fear rp a massive headache for mods and admins.