Neglect of Duty: What is it?

[Eliot Clef]

Diverting some discussion from http://aurorastation.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=35&t=4671&start=30 to here.

As a Security regular, I'm pretty much answering what seems to be a misunderstanding here rather than raising a question myself, but this seems like the appropriate subforum for that.

In summary: Neglect of Duty in response to somebody abusing genetics powers is a pretty stock standard example of how Neglect of Duty gets applied on Aurora. It's kind of a catch-all regulation, since nearly any mistake of a sufficient magnitude can constitute neglect of duty. For instance, allowing the slimes to get out of hand in xenobiology.

There seems to be some disagreement from http://aurorastation.org/forums/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=858 Melkior here, but this is pretty much universally how I see Neglect of Duty used. If you're going around making a nuisance of yourself with powers as a Geneticist (as was the point of discussion in this thread), there's a pretty good chance you'll see Neglect of Duty charges slapped on you eventually.

If this isn't how Neglect of Duty is meant to be used, then uhh... what, exactly, is it for?

[Skull132]

Consistent long-term radiation exposure literally kills people, Melkior. Pain or no pain. A geneticist doing self-testing on a regular basis would probably end up cutting years off his own life by doing so.

 

I'm waiting for the argument that said geneticist will just back up his data so he can be cloned afterward.

 

Which would effectively be Deus Ex Machina. Ergo, just plain shitty RP.

[LordFowl]

Also, it is in the lore that cloning itself degenerates the genome, meaning you can only be cloned x number of times before you become a gibbering mess, which I imagine would only compound with the intense radiation doseages you've accumulated.

This does raise an interesting point. If cloning is just rebuilding you off of your genetic data, why doesn't it keep genetic mutations like hulk or telekinesis? And if it does, then it's not a solution at all.

[the_furry]

so, other then giving powers to a motionless body then staring at a wall the entire shift...what is there to do with genetics? (and lets not pretend cloning is a fulltime job shall we). your saying if we're lucky there will be a head to sign off powers; luckier still cause that head needs to be willing to sign off on this. why is it so detrimental to let the geneticists give themselves powers to explore(they are already limited from leaving the lab with powers as it is). if he starts abusing it arrest him. we do that with literally every other department in the game. there is ways to explain it ICly if we choose to let it be. that is, we can always adjust the lore to explain how it's actually considered safe to give yourself dose of radiation. so stop pretending it's impossibly absurd, it would only be a minor change to lore and it can be made completely reasonable. it's merely our choice to deny the lore suggestion or not, but it doesn't invalidate it because this is a universe that we all get to choose how it works. let the player have fun until he starts interfering with the enjoyment of other players then arrest him. or is this lab to be the sit and stare at the wall lab?

[Lady_of_Ravens]

It's not that the radiation may cause long term damage, though that may be a thing, or that you might cronenberg yourself on accident... self-testing is just plain bad scientific practice. That's not lore, that's just reality.

Understand the problem isn't that people hate geneticists, the problem is that the way genetics works right now makes very little sense.

[the_furry]

It's not that the radiation may cause long term damage, though that may be a thing, or that you might cronenberg yourself on accident... self-testing is just plain bad scientific practice. That's not lore, that's just reality.

Understand the problem isn't that people hate geneticists, the problem is that the way genetics works right now makes very little sense.

self testing is bad scientific practice...unless your in a society that values self experience where it's expected for the person to personally know what the participant is going through. hmm...say...that...sounds like a lore solution. imagine that. the current western para-dime is that self testing and self experience is a bad idea. but that is only a recent development within what the last 400 years and not accepted universally. It can easily be argued that you would only want a scientist to test on you if they tested it themselves depending on the cultural values we have. we already do this with police forces, many police forces have to undergo tasers and pepper spray (self testing) so they know the experience of the tool. saying this it suddenly can make more sense if we change the lore. so yes..this is a lore issue.

lore can pretty much explain anything we want to design the sort of universe we want, we just have to choose what we want.

*edit* im not saying we should adopt this idea as lore, but I am saying genetic selftesting and safety can easily be explained by changing the lore in some degree. which is what you are denying.

[MagnificentMelkior]

Self testing isn't really bad scientific practise. Its bad if you can avoid it, yea, but lets use chemistry as an example. For a long time, chemists would taste test their chemicals. This was valuable because it gave them another method of analyzing and describing the chemical. Even after many people died of mercury poisoning and the like, chemists didn't stop self testing. Not until a mechanical replacement for taste was created to analyze the chemicals in place of our tongues (spectronomers).

In the world of Aurora, the genetic equivalent of a spectronomer has not been invented yet, so the grand tradition of self testing will continue.

[Guest Menown]

Or you could. Call for a test subject. Or test on proto-humans. That's the way it'd be done realistically. You just don't want to do it that way because you'd be bored.

[MagnificentMelkior]

Or you could. Call for a test subject. Or test on proto-humans. That's the way it'd be done realistically. You just don't want to do it that way because you'd be bored.

I often do call for assistants but it requires paperwork so no can do without an RD, and they tend to be inefficient and flakey. That goes double for after they get the powers and I tell them "you have to be attached to me at the hip or I'll get fired." Seon was the best test subject I ever had.

And please let this be the last time I explain this, proto humans are insufficient. They cannot tell me how they feel, so I cannot identify their morph, tough skin (though killerhurtz ICly claimed this was detectable somehow), regeneration, deafness, lightheadedness, etc etc modifications.

[Skull132]

so, other then giving powers to a motionless body then staring at a wall the entire shift...what is there to do with genetics?

 

Ding-ding-ding! We have a winner!

This question is exactly why Baystation removed genetics from their code. A little knowledge of SS13 history will have you find that genetics is a TG station creation. TG's mentality is a lot different from Bay's and from our own. The original purpose of genetics was to give people cool superpowers to fuck around with and to, to use our terms, chucklefuck with. But that sort of play wasn't an issue there. It is here, though.

Let's face it: genetics is only there for the cool powers. It has no utility beyond generating super soldiers, and even then very few geneticists think about others after getting TK/X-ray. This is kind of why I wanted to replace it with biology: hopefully something with greater utility and depth coded into it.

[Guest Menown]

A better solution would be a department within RnD that researches these things, with developments like kinesis and stasis modules from Dead Space. Those would be better handled and more easily cracked down on, not to mention more capable in a department. Genetics cloning would be handed off to medical's division.

Also, the thread went off on a huge tangent. I blame Skull.

[the_furry]

so, other then giving powers to a motionless body then staring at a wall the entire shift...what is there to do with genetics?

 

Ding-ding-ding! We have a winner!

Let's face it: genetics is only there for the cool powers. It has no utility beyond generating super soldiers, and even then very few geneticists think about others after getting TK/X-ray. This is kind of why I wanted to replace it with biology: hopefully something with greater utility and depth coded into it.

when ever i try sharing it i get eather everyone saying they dont want it. or the heads just up and denying it. I think out of all the times if jumped through the hoops to allow other departments to get the powers (i've tried a good 10 times) i've only had people take the powers once. so no, its not that we don't think of anyone else. I get tired of having all the paper work signed just for everyone to say screw off cause they don't like genetics.

[Skull132]

Yup. It lacks utility. As I said.

[the_furry]

Yup. It lacks utility. As I said.

my suggestion is to expand it or remove it. as is i try my best to rp with it. I do share the powers at any chance i get. been makeing security soldiers lately thats been lots of fun XD. I would like to see it expanded rather than just scrapped.

[MagnificentMelkior]

so, other then giving powers to a motionless body then staring at a wall the entire shift...what is there to do with genetics?

 

Ding-ding-ding! We have a winner!

This question is exactly why Baystation removed genetics from their code. A little knowledge of SS13 history will have you find that genetics is a TG station creation. TG's mentality is a lot different from Bay's and from our own. The original purpose of genetics was to give people cool superpowers to fuck around with and to, to use our terms, chucklefuck with. But that sort of play wasn't an issue there. It is here, though.

Let's face it: genetics is only there for the cool powers. It has no utility beyond generating super soldiers, and even then very few geneticists think about others after getting TK/X-ray. This is kind of why I wanted to replace it with biology: hopefully something with greater utility and depth coded into it.

Genetics has a number of cool applications that I think the server would be worse without. Just off the top of my head:

• The ability to create protohumans. The interaction this has with general science and medbay is valuable. It allows for ethical and accurate data gathering for chemists, weapon developers, surgeons, and the occasional oddball.
  
• UI/UE manipulation, which allows for cool antag options, and the curing of people who get their genome messed up somehow.
  
• The existence of a hybrid medical/science role, which is a cool little bit a nuance in the game.
• The ability to really interact with the DNA of different beings. I love the depth there. Diona nymphs can be transmuted into diona, humans/skrell/unathi/tajarran to be turned into their primative forms, and now, Vaurca to be turned into
  gibs.
  It would be cool to have Vaurca be able to flip between different Vaurca types under the ministrations of a geneticist too.
  
• Potential for some dank changeling RP. Geneticist wants to study ling, ling has the potential to kill and impersonate the geneticist and cover his crimes up by making it look like a traitor geneticist.

And thats without even mentioning the powers, which can end up being really nice too. I am interested in xenobotany (what you are talking about I think) but I don't think it should be a replacement for genetics, and I think losing genetics would be very sad.

[the_furry]

so, other then giving powers to a motionless body then staring at a wall the entire shift...what is there to do with genetics?

 

Ding-ding-ding! We have a winner!

This question is exactly why Baystation removed genetics from their code. A little knowledge of SS13 history will have you find that genetics is a TG station creation. TG's mentality is a lot different from Bay's and from our own. The original purpose of genetics was to give people cool superpowers to fuck around with and to, to use our terms, chucklefuck with. But that sort of play wasn't an issue there. It is here, though.

Id also like to add, theres plenty of things to do if everyone stops trying to limit every little thing there is in genetics. if they are fucking around arrest them. otherwise let them explore powers. that is a major thing they could do but no one here seems to be willing to let that happen.

[Skull132]

You are limited because there is a very present history of abuse with said powers. The stigma assigned to geneticists is very rightfully earned by they themselves.

And no Melkior, I was referencing an old project focusing the internal differences of the different species. Different organ structures, properties, functions. And the application of those structures, properties, and functions in other species.

Tbh. I kinda just want to yank away the powers and create something with actual fucking depth. Because argue as you may, the superpowers lack depth. Even the dna is identical between species. Like. Wat. That makes nooo fucking sense.

[MagnificentMelkior]

You are limited because there is a very present history of abuse with said powers. The stigma assigned to geneticists is very rightfully earned by they themselves.

And no Melkior, I was referencing an old project focusing the internal differences of the different species. Different organ structures, properties, functions. And the application of those structures, properties, and functions in other species.

Tbh. I kinda just want to yank away the powers and create something with actual fucking depth. Because argue as you may, the superpowers lack depth. Even the dna is identical between species. Like. Wat. That makes nooo fucking sense.

Fixing the dna being the same would be as simple as adding a couple of UE blocks that determine race, allowing UE manipulation to change the race of the subject. But humans share 98% of our DNA with chimps, 90% with cats. so the DNA similarity between sapient humanoid races (which is everyone except diona, who are mechanically special in genetics) would likely be quite similar. Consider that when one subjects DNA is injected into another, it is not a total replacement. It is merely a replacement of the blocks that are modifiable by the DNA modifier, and only those of the type of injector it is (UE/UI or SE). So the hulk, tk, xray, etc genes could be in the 90+% of DNA that is similar between humans and taj, unathi, skrell. Vaurca might warrant special consideration, but you'll have these issues when you introduce a new race to a game.

So, how is it that they lack depth? There are interactions between different genes (dwarfism and hulk, blindness and xray, maybe others). Also consider that genetics as a job has pretty incredible breadth. UE, UI, and SE all do different things, cloning is its own minisystem which is intergrated into genetics a bit, safety concerns are a another thing you need to know... Theres really a lot going on in genetics imo.

[Guest]

good thing genetics is getting removed when we move over to the new baycode, aye? No need for any IC drama that spills out into OOC for whatever reason.

[the_furry]

I’m curious to know what the actual level of fuckery that comes out of genetics compared to other departments. Sure it happens but I get the feeling that it happens far less then you guys let on and most of this complaining is just hipped up. If that’s the case then it’s your mentality that needs to change not genetics itself cause there are lots of people that actually enjoy genetics. Like I see more fuckery from engineering, Chaplins, and chemists, on a regular basis then I see coming from genetics. So really, on a daily basis, how many times do you have to arrest the geneticist cause of fuckery?

[Skull132]

On a daily basis, how many geneticists do you even see, mon ami? I see close to 0. Proportionally speaking though, genetics is probably one of the highest chuclefucked with roles. Do mind that I'm going off of my gut feeling, and roughly how many geneticists I've had to take issue with breaking the rules, compared to the ones that don't. There are usually legitimate reasons for stigmas and stereotypes existing.

[the_furry]

On a daily basis, how many geneticists do you even see, mon ami? I see close to 0. Proportionally speaking though, genetics is probably one of the highest chuclefucked with roles. Do mind that I'm going off of my gut feeling, and roughly how many geneticists I've had to take issue with breaking the rules, compared to the ones that don't. There are usually legitimate reasons for stigmas and stereotypes existing.

that's some of the poorest reasoning i've seen. "everyone hates it so it must be true"? theirs a lot of factors that go into stereotypes and in fact stereotypes actually tend to stem from fallacious things; or are you gona tell me there's actually some truth to the stereotype that Asians have an inability to drive? what effects stereotypes more than truth? mob mentality, generalized dislike for a group, group bias, which is displayed with prevalence here. all of these things have zero to do with whether the stereotype is true or not but weigh in heavily to creating the stereotype. i can tell you, in my time of playing when theres actually a geneticist on the chances of them fucking around is far less then chemists, security, and janitors, who seem to fuck around on more than a daily basis. which is why im incline to believe that this stereotype stems from the fallacious roots of mod mentality and group bias rather than any actual truth.

[Guest]

I can confirm that all of the women in my family drive 10 miles faster over the speed limit than any of the men do, and they've crashed more cars than any of the dudes in my family have. /s

[Guest]

By the way, Furry, please stop trying to equate your 2d spacecat oppressions to actual unfair discriminations that other minorities face around the world.

[Eliot Clef]

good thing genetics is getting removed when we move over to the new baycode, aye? No need for any IC drama that spills out into OOC for whatever reason.

 

Is it? This one is new to me. I thought we were avoiding a lot of the new baycode stuff.

[Guest]

good thing genetics is getting removed when we move over to the new baycode, aye? No need for any IC drama that spills out into OOC for whatever reason.

 

Is it? This one is new to me. I thought we were avoiding a lot of the new baycode stuff.

 

We will be rolling over to one of the latest revisions of baycode when we shift over to the new map. Genetics in its entirety is committed out of it, if I heard right from Skull and Witt.

I figure they're spending a bit of additional time on deciding what to keep or what to get rid of.