Make AI's word enough to make an arrest

[Dalekfodder]

This faulty system of "warrants" has once again disappointed me;

Now, at this moment, as far as I'm told, AI witness is not enough to arrest without a warrant. But it should be as an AI is a system that is configured, and slaved to a bunch of laws that makes it protect the crew at all costs. I won't even speak about how it can not lie. With AI's excluded in the list of "may arrest without warrant if witnessed" it reduces the AI's effectivity.

[UnknownMurder]

+1

AI should be trustworthy, I trust the AI's words enough. AI is like Cortana to me.

Whoever said that AI's witness is not enough should be thrown out of the window. AI have like Cameras everywhere and shoulders many responsibilities given by the NanoTrasen and the manufacturers. Security only just shoulders their own business. Need I say more? An AI cannot tell a lie unless necessary for station's effective productivity or being a malfunction (which awesome RP). But, if the AI is lying blatantly for misdeeds, we have the moderation team. Oh. Oh. Let me say this another piece, you know how Security keeps demanding the AI to open doors for them, but won't listen to the AI's witnesses? Yeah, that's a dick move.

[Guest Marlon Phoenix]

What times are you playing on? I've always had officers rush me because the AI is tracking me. Once an AI is suspicious of you it's incredibly difficult to advance unless you go loud. I've been arrested a lot without warrants.

But yes this is a strange dissonance if it happens. Then again the AI immediately saying "JOHNNY RAMBO IS KILLING MELISSA MELODY IN PRIMARY TOOL STORAGE WITH A WRENCH BOLTING ALL DOORS SHOCKING ALL DOORS" as i've seen happen is unsportsmanlike.

It's a pretty messy situation because the AI can already take security action against you. When have you seen security refuse to arrest someone based on the AI's word?

[Dalekfodder]

What times are you playing on? I've always had officers rush me because the AI is tracking me. Once an AI is suspicious of you it's incredibly difficult to advance unless you go loud. I've been arrested a lot without warrants.

But yes this is a strange dissonance if it happens. Then again the AI immediately saying "JOHNNY RAMBO IS KILLING MELISSA MELODY IN PRIMARY TOOL STORAGE WITH A WRENCH BOLTING ALL DOORS SHOCKING ALL DOORS" as i've seen happen is unsportsmanlike.

It's a pretty messy situation because the AI can already take security action against you. When have you seen security refuse to arrest someone based on the AI's word?

 

A specific warden disregarded my arrest and told me to release because there were no warrants after AI showed me to perp.

AFTERWARDS I spoke to administration and got this response.

[Zundy]

I've arrested folks who have been caught by the AI with no harm done. Didn't know this was not allowed so +1 from me.

Also listening to the warden is where you went wrong fam.

[TishinaStalker]

This is kind of less of a suggestion and more of an IC issue from the sounds of it? If they want to listen to you, then they'll listen to you and arrest. If they don't want to, then they won't. Some characters don't do it because they're not trusting of machines and there you have it. Others have other reasons to not listen. All in all, there really is not a change to be made, from what I'm seeing?

[Dalekfodder]

This is kind of less of a suggestion and more of an IC issue from the sounds of it? If they want to listen to you, then they'll listen to you and arrest. If they don't want to, then they won't. Some characters don't do it because they're not trusting of machines and there you have it. Others have other reasons to not listen. All in all, there really is not a change to be made, from what I'm seeing?

 

The problem is I was an officer and I arrested someone according to AI's words, then the warden was like "no release him is invalid" whatever.

Distrusting AI is sort of valid but to an extent, if you distrust an AI you should have a very good reason.

[November]

The problem is I was an officer and I arrested someone according to AI's words, then the warden was like "no release him is invalid" whatever.

Distrusting AI is sort of valid but to an extent, if you distrust an AI you should have a very good reason.

 

I feel like that issues arises more from a lack of command chain. The way I see it, the AI says "Oi, this thing went down" to the HoS, then the HoS orders the arrest. The AI is not a member of security, nor does it hold actual rank over anyone on the station. As such I feel like an AI telling people what to do is faulty, and instead by design they aught to be more about telling what has happened.

[Dalekfodder]

The problem is I was an officer and I arrested someone according to AI's words, then the warden was like "no release him is invalid" whatever.

Distrusting AI is sort of valid but to an extent, if you distrust an AI you should have a very good reason.

 

I feel like that issues arises more from a lack of command chain. The way I see it, the AI says "Oi, this thing went down" to the HoS, then the HoS orders the arrest. The AI is not a member of security, nor does it hold actual rank over anyone on the station. As such I feel like an AI telling people what to do is faulty, and instead by design they aught to be more about telling what has happened.

 

I did not claim that AI told me to arrest.

AI told me that someone had committed a crime and they ran away to x place, so I went to X place and decided to arrest the person as an AI IS A ROBOT THAT IS LAWED (WHICH HE CANNOT DISOBEY AND HAS 100% SUCCESS RATE) to protect the station and CAN NOT EVEN LIE.

[November]

I did not claim that AI told me to arrest.

AI told me that someone had committed a crime and they ran away to x place, so I went to X place and decided to arrest the person as an AI IS A ROBOT THAT IS LAWED (WHICH HE CANNOT DISOBEY AND HAS 100% SUCCESS RATE) to protect the station and CAN NOT EVEN LIE.

 

The stuff about an AI's role wasn't really directed at anyone, just my feelings about the AI's place. Building on that though with your specific example, I think the arrest may still be questionable. Obviously you don't always get to have an awesome HoS, or things are just too busy, but in an ideal situation I believe the best course would be 1) Alert the HoS that you are on your way to detain, 2) Once detained, ask for permission to arrest (this is something I haven't seen, you do not need a warrant to declare you are detaining someone afaik), 3) Proceed as instructed.

I feel like a lot of security officers are too independent of their chain of command (not an accusatory statement, just a general observation). That's moderately off topic though.

I agree that the AI's observations should be trusted, but I don't think an AI should ever attempt to interpret a situation. An AI should not announce to security "Urist McCriminal is making a bomb" but rather "Urist McCriminal is mixing X, Y, Z reagents in such and such location". This is more of an RP opinion, but still it solves the issue of the AI's trustworthiness. We use computers to give and sort the data on the weather, but the actual interpretation of the results is best left to people.

[Dalekfodder]

I did not claim that AI told me to arrest.

AI told me that someone had committed a crime and they ran away to x place, so I went to X place and decided to arrest the person as an AI IS A ROBOT THAT IS LAWED (WHICH HE CANNOT DISOBEY AND HAS 100% SUCCESS RATE) to protect the station and CAN NOT EVEN LIE.

 

The stuff about an AI's role wasn't really directed at anyone, just my feelings about the AI's place. Building on that though with your specific example, I think the arrest may still be questionable. Obviously you don't always get to have an awesome HoS, or things are just too busy, but in an ideal situation I believe the best course would be 1) Alert the HoS that you are on your way to detain, 2) Once detained, ask for permission to arrest (this is something I haven't seen, you do not need a warrant to declare you are detaining someone afaik), 3) Proceed as instructed.

I feel like a lot of security officers are too independent of their chain of command (not an accusatory statement, just a general observation). That's moderately off topic though.

I agree that the AI's observations should be trusted, but I don't think an AI should ever attempt to interpret a situation. An AI should not announce to security "Urist McCriminal is making a bomb" but rather "Urist McCriminal is mixing X, Y, Z reagents in such and such location". This is more of an RP opinion, but still it solves the issue of the AI's trustworthiness. We use computers to give and sort the data on the weather, but the actual interpretation of the results is best left to people.

 

Dude what you are saying is completely unreleated right now.

What I'm saying is, if AI tells us that SOMEONE has committed a crime, it should be considered a valid excuse to make an arrest, it's still upto the officers to trust them. So, we made a robot that cannot lie, can see everything and is enslaved to us /without/ any questions? I know what to do! Let's hinder it BECAUSE it's too easy for our security and put the need of a piece of paper.

But as I said, it's not an order, it's more of a witnessing situation and it should be upto the security officer to whether arrest or not, personally, since we consider malf AI rounds non-canon, there's literally no reason to not trust it, as it's 100% successfull everytime when it comes to malfunctioning/lying

[November]

Dude what you are saying is completely unreleated right now.

What I'm saying is, if AI tells us that SOMEONE has committed a crime, it should be considered a valid excuse to make an arrest, it's still upto the officers to trust them. So, we made a robot that cannot lie, can see everything and is enslaved to us /without/ any questions? I know what to do! Let's hinder it BECAUSE it's too easy for our security and put the need of a piece of paper.

But as I said, it's not an order, it's more of a witnessing situation and it should be upto the security officer to whether arrest or not, personally, since we consider malf AI rounds non-canon, there's literally no reason to not trust it, as it's 100% successfull everytime when it comes to malfunctioning/lying

 

The point I was making is that while it cannot lie, it can still be wrong.

[Guest Complete Garbage]

there's literally no reason to not trust it, as it's 100% successfull everytime

 

See the Skrell lore page. AIs have malfunctioned before. Just because there's a non-canon round type where that also happens doesn't negate the fact that machines break down. It should honestly be up to the person making the arrest whether an AI's testimony, with no further evidence, would be enough to actually convict someone.

[coolbc2000]

Ahem, so that certain Warden was me... Where to start

Let's start at where you brought the Robo in, it was Code Green and I was only half playing the game (Watching Animeru). Xander the Security Officer comes on In with the Roboticist in Hand.

He demands there arrest. Me only have listing scroll back the chat to see the AI shouting at Security that the roboticst was hitting a guy breaking into there work place.

Now, it was not that I did not listen to you or just ignored the AI, it was that you did not ask me for a fucking Warrent or anything.

It's just like hive said, the AI will play Lawyer and shout in Security com's for the Arrest, opening the doors and letting the guy get arrested.

That's my mini-rant over.

[Dalekfodder]

Ahem, so that certain Warden was me... Where to start

Let's start at where you brought the Robo in, it was Code Green and I was only half playing the game (Watching Animeru). Xander the Security Officer comes on In with the Roboticist in Hand.

He demands there arrest. Me only have listing scroll back the chat to see the AI shouting at Security that the roboticst was hitting a guy breaking into there work place.

Now, it was not that I did not listen to you or just ignored the AI, it was that you did not ask me for a fucking Warrent or anything.

It's just like hive said, the AI will play Lawyer and shout in Security com's for the Arrest, opening the doors and letting the guy get arrested.

That's my mini-rant over.

 

As I didn't specify your name (unlike you did to me) I did not blame you regarding this incident as this is a fault in the system, not yours, I was only telling where I learned this.

[Dalekfodder]

there's literally no reason to not trust it, as it's 100% successfull everytime

 

See the Skrell lore page. AIs have malfunctioned before. Just because there's a non-canon round type where that also happens doesn't negate the fact that machines break down. It should honestly be up to the person making the arrest whether an AI's testimony, with no further evidence, would be enough to actually convict someone.

 

Oh yes, 4 centuries are nothing.

What you are telling me right now is that, "a machine broke down 400 years ago, they are unreliable"

Unless it's a Chinese Brand AI I don't think that it's very likely to break under canon conditions.

[Owen]

Oh yes, 4 centuries are nothing.

What you are telling me right now is that, "a machine broke down 400 years ago, they are unreliable"

Unless it's a Chinese Brand AI I don't think that it's very likely to break under canon conditions.

 

If you are referring to the Third Incident. It ended in 2192. It still took over a century for the Skrell to begin to recover. So, I would say that there is a real reason for people not to believe they are accurate 100% or even need to trust them to begin with.

Currently, I feel that the system that we have is fine. The AI alerts either Security or Command about something that is happening. It is then the Head of Security's, Captain's or Warden's decision to write a warrant and deal with the issue. Of course, the AI is also able to alert Security about major threats such as intruders on station that would mean that they would not need a warrant to deal with.

As stated before, the AI is not a commanding figure on the station. It is meant to serve and assist the crew. Its word alone should not be enough to command Security to arrest someone.

[Dalekfodder]

As stated before, the AI is not a commanding figure on the station. It is meant to serve and assist the crew. Its word alone should not be enough to command Security to arrest someone.

 

But AI is tasked to oversee the crew. So of course it's going to be more efficient to allow security officers to arrest based on AIs word.

So where's logic in, "Let's make a machine that can see everything but put limitations infront of it so it cant be at 100% efficiency"

[Owen]

As stated before, the AI is not a commanding figure on the station. It is meant to serve and assist the crew. Its word alone should not be enough to command Security to arrest someone.

 

But AI is tasked to oversee the crew. So of course it's going to be more efficient to allow security officers to arrest based on AIs word.

So where's logic in, "Let's make a machine that can see everything but put limitations infront of it so it cant be at 100% efficiency"

 

Wait. Are you saying based on evidence that the AI provides or just if the AI tells someone to arrest someone? Because, if the AI can prove that there is a threat, Security Officers can act on it. However, the AI cannot and will not be allowed to command around the crew. Many species that are employed by NanoTrasen wouldn't want to give an AI that amount of power to order around people.

I honestly, think it is fine how it is now.

[Dalekfodder]

As stated before, the AI is not a commanding figure on the station. It is meant to serve and assist the crew. Its word alone should not be enough to command Security to arrest someone.

 

But AI is tasked to oversee the crew. So of course it's going to be more efficient to allow security officers to arrest based on AIs word.

So where's logic in, "Let's make a machine that can see everything but put limitations infront of it so it cant be at 100% efficiency"

 

Wait. Are you saying based on evidence that the AI provides or just if the AI tells someone to arrest someone? Because, if the AI can prove that there is a threat, Security Officers can act on it. However, the AI cannot and will not be allowed to command around the crew. Many species that are employed by NanoTrasen wouldn't want to give an AI that amount of power to order around people.

I honestly, think it is fine how it is now.

 

Let me explain it to you with a scene:

I'm X officer at bar, AI informs security that Y is breaking into science and he stops when he hears this.

So I should be allowed to make an arrest (of course upto me) cause AI as a witness is 100% reliable and should bypass the necessity of a warrant.

[Owen]

Oh... I am already sure that you are allowed to act on that information. It would be good to tell the rest of Security that you are moving to stop them. Since they were caught in the act, I do not believe that a warrant is needed for their immediate detainment. But, as long as you keep your communication up, you /should/ be fine.

[Dalekfodder]

you /should/ be fine.

 

Which I wasn't.

[Zundy]

Coolbc's character was just being an IC jobsworth as he admits. It's totally fine to act on what the AI says. Most will agree and let you go on your way but if you run into a character that say, mistrusts AIs/hates you, you're gonna have trouble. Just roll with it IG I'd say. Some people take the NT approved AIs word as gospel (my characters and many others) some don't.

I sort of revoke my +1 and say that it should be flexible. In short, if a warden/HoS is on you should get a warrant if the AI claims something. If they're not on you can just go for gold and arrest.

Thoughts?

[Dalekfodder]

Coolbc's character was just being an IC jobsworth as he admits. It's totally fine to act on what the AI says. Most will agree and let you go on your way but if you run into a character that say, mistrusts AIs/hates you, you're gonna have trouble. Just roll with it IG I'd say. Some people take the NT approved AIs word as gospel (my characters and many others) some don't.

I sort of revoke my +1 and say that it should be flexible. In short, if a warden/HoS is on you should get a warrant if the AI claims something. If they're not on you can just go for gold and arrest.

Thoughts?

 

That means we're back to square one and it means that AI is still useless on that end.

I don't understand why you guys wish to limit AI in this manner, as I said, it's an all seeing eye that can witness everything going on on the station, you may hate them but you have no reason to distrust them as even they hate you back they can not break your trust and as proven the last incident with AIs happened 200 years ago and I suppose 200 years is enough to build trust in AI.

I mean it's 400 years later, robotic age and all.

[Zundy]

Coolbc's character was just being an IC jobsworth as he admits. It's totally fine to act on what the AI says. Most will agree and let you go on your way but if you run into a character that say, mistrusts AIs/hates you, you're gonna have trouble. Just roll with it IG I'd say. Some people take the NT approved AIs word as gospel (my characters and many others) some don't.

I sort of revoke my +1 and say that it should be flexible. In short, if a warden/HoS is on you should get a warrant if the AI claims something. If they're not on you can just go for gold and arrest.

Thoughts?

 

That means we're back to square one and it means that AI is still useless on that end.

I don't understand why you guys wish to limit AI in this manner, as I said, it's an all seeing eye that can witness everything going on on the station, you may hate them but you have no reason to distrust them as even they hate you back they can not break your trust and as proven the last incident with AIs happened 200 years ago and I suppose 200 years is enough to build trust in AI.

I mean it's 400 years later, robotic age and all.

 

Literally fair enough.

I say make it so "officially" the AI's word is gospel, but lore wise some races (SKRELL) and folsk tend to distrust AI's to the point where it's not unheard of for them to ignore said AI's. Good for rp ya see.