Too much robust gamemodes.

[TrickingTrapster]

I also think part of the issue is the antag players not being given enough tools to create situations like that, bedshaped. All they spawn with is... Voidsuits and guns. Maybe give them some tools to fake paperwork, send a faked centcomm message or two without requiring admin intervention? In short: Making it a little easier to create a good situation to RP in instead of having to wrack their brains over how they will be convincing enough for players not to start metagaming because "Oh no red suit with guns".

[Bedshaped]

I love playing as open "recruit people willingly" for cult. Because it exposes what valid hunting shits 90% of sec is.

Everyone knows the round is cult/merc/heist, a mechanic like hacking into telecoms would be cool but I still think it's meaningless as long as you have players going "hurr don't believe announcement me will arrest".

It would be nice to get statistics on how many players are trying to be antags too. I think there's a problem of quantity, not quality. Maybe a general rule that antags overall goal is to generate RP or something like Apollo where antags get rated at the end of the round.

[TrickingTrapster]

Funny thing about that, it already IS the rule for antags to create RP and not play to win. A rating system would be nice, but my point still stands: The three gamemodes I have been ranting on in this thread have /too much emphasis on robustness/. You know what a very good way would be to improve cult? Instead of making the cultists have to drag someone on a convert rune and use it, have the person themselves use the convert rune to convert to the cult. That way you're both certain they will do their best to aid the cult AND it gives some incentive to RP with them to get them to like the cult and do it out of their own free will. Instead of pushing someone, cabletying them, dragging them to maint and spamconverting them. Mercs and raiders just need more tools than just guns.

[Ron]

UHM, there are a huge amount of tools for mercs!!!! They can buy CHAMELON SUITS that can turn into anything, rubber stamps that can turn into any stamp in the game, voice changers, agent ids, and a floppy disk ( that is fucking usless ill admit) that lets you see security cameras. Also, if they ask over AOOC or ahelp, admins might do an announcement for them, but usually announcing it over common is enough to spark RP. They have the tools, they just don't use them.

As for CULT, I think the convert system is fine the way it is. You either join or die from not joining. Honestly, some salty people (For lack of a better term that doesn't insult those people) like to do anything in their power to make sure the antags loose because fuck antags. ALSOOOO, this message doesn't help during peace cult...

XX writhes in pain as the markings below her glow a bloody red. ALSO, security being shitlords and trying to do vandalism charges followed by "EVIL BOOK AND TIALSMAN" doesn't help, though the shitlers that do that are usually killed if I am a cultist

[TrickingTrapster]

Okay, cool. Mercs have tools. So where were they the last 9 merc rounds? Pretty sure they mostly revolved about "OH NO HOSTILES WITH GUNS". No paperwork, no stealthgame, just... Sec chasing them while they cause mischief. I really fail to see how that is engaging RP for the crew. Only a few times have I seen merc go well, and even then only when a competent player (usually an admin, even) takes the lead and tells them what the fuck to do. I really think this needs to change.

"You either join or die from not joining.". It's the entire problem I have with cult. It's not fine, since it's almost not reversible because the chaplain is /never/ involved in cult rounds. Maybe give some appeal to joining the cult? Like I mentioned earlier in this thread, how about some initiation rites? How about seperating the starting cultists, the head cultists if you will, from new converts, which would start out as initiates. The head cultists would have to teach them how to draw runes, how to correctly make the incantations while drawing the runes, etc. It still doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me that freshly converted cultists can perfectly draw and chant for runes right from the get go only because they have a book. If Nar'Sie can teach that in the split second it takes to convert someone why is there even the need to only teach a single word per cultist? For me, there's just zero appeal to playing cult as it is now.

[Ron]

Okay, cool. Mercs have tools. So where were they the last 9 merc rounds? Pretty sure they mostly revolved about "OH NO HOSTILES WITH GUNS". No paperwork, no stealthgame, just... Sec chasing them while they cause mischief. I really fail to see how that is engaging RP for the crew. Only a few times have I seen merc go well, and even then only when a competent player (usually an admin, even) takes the lead and tells them what the fuck to do. I really think this needs to change.

"You either join or die from not joining.". It's the entire problem I have with cult. It's not fine, since it's almost not reversible because the chaplain is /never/ involved in cult rounds. Maybe give some appeal to joining the cult? Like I mentioned earlier in this thread, how about some initiation rites? How about seperating the starting cultists, the head cultists if you will, from new converts, which would start out as initiates. The head cultists would have to teach them how to draw runes, how to correctly make the incantations while drawing the runes, etc. It still doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me that freshly converted cultists can perfectly draw and chant for runes right from the get go only because they have a book. If Nar'Sie can teach that in the split second it takes to convert someone why is there even the need to only teach a single word per cultist? For me, there's just zero appeal to playing cult as it is now.

So that first thing about mercs seems like a player problem. You can't change peoples mentality. So you will, as hash as it seems, have to deal with it. That sounds like a bad idea for cult. I don't see any RP being generated. Just them rushing through it because security is knocking at their door. Also, consider the 1 word per cultist as a teaching a gameplay mechanic to encourage teamwork. There are plenty of gameplay mechanics that don't make sense ICLy but are there for balance. I am fine with cult. You either join, or die from not joining. If you join, great, you can go to cyro. If you don't join and die, well that's too bad. You can't opt out of death during regular rounds if someone or something wants you dead.

[TrickingTrapster]

I know we can't change people's mentality, at least not over the course of a day, but we can certainly give them a nudge or two in the right direction. And, right back at you: If security is knocking at their door it's either the cult not being stealthy about it or security metagaming too hard. And, if you say those mechanics are "needed for balance" you've just proven the point I've made in this thread: These gamemodes are too focused on robustness.

Also, I know I can't opt out of death in regular rounds, but in those rounds people actually have to put effort into the situation surrounding my death. Mercs, raiders and cultists get free tools for doing so and now you're telling me they get a free pass to do it too. I'm not buying that.

[Ron]

"Also, I know I can't opt out of death in regular rounds, but in those rounds people actually have to put effort into the situation surrounding my death. "

not really, anyone can make a bomb, thermite, get a space suit, and breach the armory in about 25 minutes. Or they can bomb people in 12~ minutes from toxins. Or they can flat out murder you at any time by summoning a tommy gun... It's not hard to kill someone, at all. Merc and heist are built off of robustness, that's why they are fun, but they aren't always about robusting, which is nice. I like it how it is, as do a lot of other people.

[Guest]

What's the point of this thread again?

What's the aim that people seek with the resolution of this thread, if such a goal exists in anyone's mind?

Because we have four pages of whatever and complaining about game modes like mercenary/heist/cult/literally any round type with violent antagonists.

Anyone can choose to be a peaceful antagonist. Anyone can choose to do a certain gimmick that prioritizes goofing off or whatever. Other people prefer doing what they know best: upholding the status quo and stereotype of the game mode type and the antagonist that the game mode is centered around in terms of thematic.

Violence is the first and foremost way of engaging a server's playerbase. Is it the best one? I don't know nor care enough about it to judge anyone for it unless they get incredibly stupid about it and decide to not use their role to engage the server's population with.

[TrickingTrapster]

My point about robustness is that it's not roleplay, it's mechanics in a program. If you say "Being robust is roleplay because it makes messages" you're on the wrong track. You click on people. ERMAGERD ROLEPLAY. No. It's not. If you think it's roleplay you're bad. I get that it's necessary in fights and such, but having entire gamemodes centered around mechanics rather than actual roleplay really ticks me off. Contrast it to malf AI: Their hacking of APCs and turning them blue actually incites and encourages roleplay about why it happened, whereas the heisters' and mercs' guns just incite running and being taken out of the round and trying to make sure you're not getting taken out of the round at all costs. I think this ties in a bit of why the community stopped doing fear-RP: They're gonna get shot anyway, either by sec officers rushing it or the hostage taker saying fuck it because they got bored or it takes too long. Or, you know, by walking down the hallway and meet a trigger-happy intruder.

I think a good way to describe it would be, that these gamemodes have it backwards. Other gamemodes build mechanics around the roleplay they can provide, these three gamemodes use their gimmicky mechanics and there might be some roleplay surrounding it.

The point of this thread, sorry if it's vague, is to find some ways to make these three gamemodes more enjoyable in general. I really don't get how picking up a gun and clicking on players is either fun or creating roleplay. If I wanted to do that there's literally just about twenty shooting games I could pick from.

[Nanako]

cults do have to pur some effort into a sacrifice or conversion though

[TrickingTrapster]

They used to have to, Nanako. Now it's an extra they can utilize, or they can just "Hey look at this weird stuff *CONVERT*". Feels like the incredibly easy way out.

[UnknownMurder]

I see some hypocrites here. Those people who complains about people shooting people...But actually does that.

From what I know, I'm one of those people who does shoot to stun, not to kill. Why? They often fight back and I need them to further the roleplay. It depends on how you use the gun for what purpose. You probably got gunned down because you didn't do what the antagonist demanded you to do. You probably died to the cultist because you were a target or accomplice with Security. But, that's just me speaking out loud while you guys complain. I'm not so sure what about heist, it's a low-budget mercenary who aims to steal stuff like pirates, but shouldn't be killing. If they're focusing on killing people, they should walk the plank and never return to Neverland.

The solution I can see right now is:

A. ADMINS, DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT RATHER WATCHING THIS TOPIC SINK HARD SINCE TITANIC.

B. Players needs to demonstrate a good model of gimmick.

C. Rework the game modes a little, but not too much. Just probably some viable paths you can take.

[TrickingTrapster]

I have been pushing for option C several times, UM. Though it seems others are really opposed to it for some reason.

[Ron]

I'm fine, as I said before, with how it is. I'll kill you if you A. Yell over radio the second you see us. B. Run when we say not to. C. Try to be a hero and rush us when you aren't security. D. Be a complete idiot. That's when I kill without any hesitation at all. So yes, I am opposed to it because the gamemode is fine. Maybe just add an option for them to get an idea for a gimmick, and have someone right up like 25 of them that they could get.

[UnknownMurder]

I have been pushing for option C several times, UM. Though it seems others are really opposed to it for some reason.

 

I noticed. Those hypocrites can figure this out on their own through complaining and blaming the players. I'll stick around the thread for a little longer and see what their solution is.

Before people starts assuming the interpretation for Solution C. By Solution C, I mean for the developers to insert something to provide another route to take other than shooting people because right now. In Mercenary, there is armory at your disposal to use. In Cult, one book contains the armory and weapons, and that armory and weapons is at your disposal. In heist, you're given your personal guns at your disposal.

Personally, I would have done the same thing what Ron would say. You don't listen to me? You're a jackass to me? I will kill the character while he complains in deadsay because I killed him without remorse.

[TrickingTrapster]

Ron, really. Those gamemodes CAN work, yes. But the majority of the current players' mentality is too focused on robusting the station and thinking "the RP that follows from this is good antag RP". Not exactly the right mindset. Let heisters spawn with merchant jumpsuits, a bag of money, less killing and more stunning tools. Let the mercs spawn with something that lets them infiltrate the station rather than straight up robust into it. Let converted cultists earn their books by doing a rite or two. Add some more RP-oriented mechanics and make these gamemodes less purely about their mechanical gimmick. Those are several solutions that don't overly drastically change the gamemode but add enough things to give players something to think about. Heck, even better: Give the heisters a bank account! A way to rob money without having to forcefully shove people into ATMs. Have them sell scammy things. I dunno. Something other than guns though.

[Ron]

I've said what I've wanted to said. They are fine. They DO work. No change needed.. Last thing I'm going to say.