Staff Complaint: ShameOnTurtles

[EvilBrage]

BYOND Key: EvilBrage

Staff BYOND Key: ShameOnTurtles

Game ID: b9NyVf

Reason For Complaint: ShameOnTurtles has elected to enforce his own subjective version of the rules and toss a warning on my account. Here is, verbatim, what the warning said:

Blew up a supermatter core without ahelping beforehand, destroying a spawnpoint in the process. Keep in mind: The singularity and atmos are generally off-limits, due to the impact they can have on the round. If you think you have a really good reason to mess with either, adminhelp first to get clearance.

He's copied and pasted the rule into the warning and saved me some time trying to find it, but you'll notice that the singularity and atmospherics are mentioned, but a supermatter core is not. Those items listed in the rules (the singularity and atmospherics) can indeed have a devastating effect on the round, as the singularity drags everything towards it and obliterates whatever it touches - while atmospherics is extremely deadly if it's used to pump plasma throughout the station, since that eventually leads to walls melting and other zones going ablaze. Both end the round very quickly. ShameOnTurtles unduly expanded this definition to include a supermatter core, (not the supermatter core in the engine room, I ordered a new one via cargo.) While I'm not aware if a spawn point (another subjective interpretation) was destroyed or not, I do know that the round continued on for a good thirty to fourty-five minutes after the detonation and only a single person died as a result of the blast. This was, of course, after escalating through a series of smaller blasts that were more or less ignored and repaired, ergo my need to send a more solid message (I had a security radio, so I could listen in on their reaction and gauge accordingly.)

The crux of my issue is this: no administrator or moderator should be enforcing a version of the rules that is entirely subjective; if a rule needs to be changed, then change it. His primary argument is that's what the author of the rules meant when he wrote it and further that we simply haven't updated the rules to match the server. Those of you who know me also know how many times I've brought up how badly we need to update the rules - even back when Baka was headmin - because a failure to do so will bring us back here time and again.

[ShameOnTurtles]

Well, I'll get to this. Three other moderators who were there for the situation and might like to give input: SirCatnip, House_Of_Synth, TrickingTrapster.

In hindsight, I really should've saved the logs from that round to see exactly how I explained it to you, but oh well.

In this situation, you were a traitor Quartermaster. You had been stealthily stealing things from around the station. You progressed to doing minor sabotage actions such as bombing, and throwing incendiary grenades at Security. During this time, you were pretty much anonymous. Security had their suspicions, but didn't know for sure who it was. This is when you decided to blow up a supermatter core in the maintenance by Auxiliary Tool Storage without any staff communication on the matter. (previously in the round he was instructed to involve crew more by House_Of_Synth).

Basically, when I noticed that the emitter was going off and you were blowing it up, I PMed you saying to turn off the emitter. You asked why, and I explained that this wasn't proper escalation or crew involvement. The key part here was you had progressed from minor actions, completely anonymous, to blowing up a Supermatter Core in a high traffic area, right next to a spawnpoint.

I did quote to you in PMs the part of the rules that states,

The singularity and atmos are generally off-limits, due to the impact they can have on the round. If you think you have a really good reason to mess with either, adminhelp first to get clearance.

After this, you protested that since it did not mention a supermatter core, you didn't have to adminhelp. I explained to you multiple times that since it was on the same scale of destruction, along with it destroying a spawnpoint you still had to adminhelp beforehand. I also told you how people had been talked to and punished about this before, and that those rules primarily mean the engine as a singularity engine is what is was running off at the time of making those rules. (Obviously, they have since been revised).

As some closing notes, you state:

His primary argument is that's what the author of the rules meant when he wrote it and further that we simply haven't updated the rules to match the server.

 

That's not it at all. As I explained to you many times, it was on the same scale of destructiveness as those two mentioned, seeing as although the round continued for a little while afterwards, it was just the crew panicking and calling a shuttle after some delay. (I'm not sure of why there was that delay to calling the emergency shuttle).

Yes, a spawnpoint was destroyed. The Gateway was completely gone. If someone spawned there, they would have immediately died to the lack of pressure and air.

Finally,

This was, of course, after escalating through a series of smaller blasts that were more or less ignored and repaired, ergo my need to send a more solid message.

 

Perhaps you felt like you weren't having an impact, but you did. The nuke on the station was specifically moved in a preemptive move to stop someone from breaching in to potentially steal it - as you had proven a capability to do. Security was confused, and attempting to investigate the cause and source of the explosions with no forensics or investigative personnel aboard the station - at least, not until the very end, if I recall correctly.

As I said before, I invite the moderators mentioned to share their opinion. I felt it was a valid argument to make that it should have been adminhelped beforehand.

[Shadow]

We updated the rules recently.

The station's primary power source and atmospherics systems are generally off-limits in terms of catastrophic sabotage, due to the impact they can have on the round. If you think you have a really good reason to mess with either, adminhelp first to get clearance.

[Guest Complete Garbage]

I was the HoS this round, and you certainly had an effect on the round pre-SM. imho, blowing up a supermatter core right next to the gateway was a shit-tier move. While it may be true that only one person died, the resulting loss of power and irradiation for the crew directly resulted in a decision to end the round. Whenever you want to undertake an action that will have that scale of round impact, take it under advisement to ahelp first. It prevents situations like this.

[Alberyk]

Also, take in mind that the following was always part of the rules:

Collateral damage is acceptable within reason, but this means you must use common sense, and avoid creating scenarios with a lot of potential for collateral (setting bombs in high-traffic areas, etc.)

[EvilBrage]

We updated the rules recently.

The station's primary power source and atmospherics systems are generally off-limits in terms of catastrophic sabotage, due to the impact they can have on the round. If you think you have a really good reason to mess with either, adminhelp first to get clearance.

This took place was prior to the rules update, ergo my statement about retroactively applying subjective interpretations. Both of us copied and pasted the rule itself into the logs many times, if someone wants to check. In any case, I could also argue from a purely logical standpoint that even under the most recent revision, I still didn't break any rules. I ordered a new supermatter core and left the station's primary power source, the engine's supermatter core, untouched. So if I didn't break the letter of the rule, then what about the spirit of the rule? The revision is a good step in the right direction, but I'm still of the strong opinion that a supermatter delamanation is hardly the end of a round, and it didn't cause undue damage without escalation. The hall may have been damaged beyond repair, but the gateway could have easily been sealed back up and made safe - we had the engineers to make that happen.

As far as collateral damage goes, I'd already taken that into account - the server population was low, I'd already set off a bomb in the area previously (so they knew that area could be dangerous,) and I did not unlock the supermatter crate (that is, I allowed the crate to be busted open by the emitter itself. That crate in particular takes a few shots to open, which allows players more time to hear the emitter going off, etc etc.) Am I to understand, then, that a single lost life, some radiation sickness, and a hallway are tantamount to "catastrophic sabotage?" I think not.

 

I was the HoS this round, and you certainly had an effect on the round pre-SM. imho, blowing up a supermatter core right next to the gateway was a shit-tier move. While it may be true that only one person died, the resulting loss of power and irradiation for the crew directly resulted in a decision to end the round. Whenever you want to undertake an action that will have that scale of round impact, take it under advisement to ahelp first. It prevents situations like this.

The only situation that should have been prevented was my relative inability to use the explosion as forward momentum, due to having to PM a trial moderator back and forth for the remainder of the round because of a subjective interpretation of the rules as they were written at the time this was done. There could have been hostage-taking and outpost-fortifying, but instead I was dragged into a discussion about the nuances of certain rules. You can't claim that the round was fresh by any stretch of the imagination - it'd been nigh on three hours since the round start, and it's hardly as if this was my opening move. It was never my goal to remain undetected, and I didn't even bother with forensic countermeasures or disguises for any of my actions. The security team didn't even consider forensics; they simply chalked it up to a guessing game, shrugged their shoulders, and 'kept their eye out.'

[Garnascus]

Basically, when I noticed that the emitter was going off and you were blowing it up, I PMed you saying to turn off the emitter. You asked why, and I explained that this wasn't proper escalation or crew involvement. The key part here was you had progressed from minor actions, completely anonymous, to blowing up a Supermatter Core in a high traffic area, right next to a spawnpoint.

 

So from Turtle's reply it looks like there is a great deal of confusion about what exactly the issue is. You where warned for having improper escalation to warrant blowing up a super matter core in a high traffic area. Sure maybe the wording of the warning needs to be changed. What exactly WAS your reasoning for blowing up a supermatter core in that area?

Also, this here.

 

As far as collateral damage goes, I'd already taken that into account - the server population was low, I'd already set off a bomb in the area previously (so they knew that area could be dangerous,) and I did not unlock the supermatter crate (that is, I allowed the crate to be busted open by the emitter itself. That crate in particular takes a few shots to open, which allows players more time to hear the emitter going off, etc etc.) Am I to understand, then, that a single lost life, some radiation sickness, and a hallway are tantamount to "catastrophic sabotage?" I think not.

Doesn't really matter what the server population is like. A bomb in a high traffic area still needs to be escalated properly.

[EvilBrage]

So from Turtle's reply it looks like there is a great deal of confusion about what exactly the issue is. You where warned for having improper escalation to warrant blowing up a super matter core in a high traffic area. Sure maybe the wording of the warning needs to be changed. What exactly WAS your reasoning for blowing up a supermatter core in that area?

Should we be issuing warnings and simply changing the wording later, though? Is bombing several separate locations not enough of an escalation to detonate a supermatter core? Must I boldly announce my name and the fact that I intend to blow up a supermatter core and there's nothing anyone could possibly do to stop me? Regardless of escalation or the idea of the supermatter itself, I've broken rules on neither front, and so a warning should not be there to begin with.

As for my reasoning, it was right next to my department (I blew it up right next to the cargo warehouse, mind), and because it was something loud and noisy that freaks people out that only cargo could possibly order. The plan was to get the heat on, kidnap someone (maybe someone wounded by the blast,) then bring them to the mining outpost before fortifying it. Then since the only person capable of causing the cataclysm should be me, security would show up and negotiations could ensue. This didn't happen because I was PMing Turtles back and forth.

 

Doesn't really matter what the server population is like. A bomb in a high traffic area still needs to be escalated properly.

High-traffic implies that there are multiple people walking through the area. A low-population server doesn't have as many of these locations as a high-population server - so it really does matter, and as aforementioned, it was escalated properly.

[Pyrociraptor]

I was the HoS this round, and you certainly had an effect on the round pre-SM. imho, blowing up a supermatter core right next to the gateway was a shit-tier move. While it may be true that only one person died, the resulting loss of power and irradiation for the crew directly resulted in a decision to end the round. Whenever you want to undertake an action that will have that scale of round impact, take it under advisement to ahelp first. It prevents situations like this.

 

And I was the confused HoP slash Acting Captain, I was there since almost the start of the round.

You blew up the SM core, and that's what made us, (by us, I mean Complete Garbage and his team, I was totally clueless for a moment.) understood YOU were the damn traitor.

Before that, we though it was either one of the scientist or even one of the security officer. But well, when we got our shits together and realized, who could have access to Weapons, Emitters and a GOD DAMN SUPERMATTER CORE (aka after explosion), we knew it was you, the only one working in cargo, (excluding me.)

TL;DR: SM core exploded when we didn't even had a single clue on who was the tator.

[Guest Complete Garbage]

I was the HoS this round, and you certainly had an effect on the round pre-SM. imho, blowing up a supermatter core right next to the gateway was a shit-tier move. While it may be true that only one person died, the resulting loss of power and irradiation for the crew directly resulted in a decision to end the round. Whenever you want to undertake an action that will have that scale of round impact, take it under advisement to ahelp first. It prevents situations like this.

The only situation that should have been prevented was my relative inability to use the explosion as forward momentum, due to having to PM a trial moderator back and forth for the remainder of the round because of a subjective interpretation of the rules as they were written at the time this was done. There could have been hostage-taking and outpost-fortifying, but instead I was dragged into a discussion about the nuances of certain rules. You can't claim that the round was fresh by any stretch of the imagination - it'd been nigh on three hours since the round start, and it's hardly as if this was my opening move. It was never my goal to remain undetected, and I didn't even bother with forensic countermeasures or disguises for any of my actions. The security team didn't even consider forensics; they simply chalked it up to a guessing game, shrugged their shoulders, and 'kept their eye out.'

Not that it's the most important of details, but: We actually did consider forensics. We also checked around cargo for supply logs a bit, but at the time, no turrets had been found yet, and we thought whoever was doing it was in science. Only after the turrets came up, though, did cargo become particularly suspect.

[Pyrociraptor]

I was the HoS this round, and you certainly had an effect on the round pre-SM. imho, blowing up a supermatter core right next to the gateway was a shit-tier move. While it may be true that only one person died, the resulting loss of power and irradiation for the crew directly resulted in a decision to end the round. Whenever you want to undertake an action that will have that scale of round impact, take it under advisement to ahelp first. It prevents situations like this.

The only situation that should have been prevented was my relative inability to use the explosion as forward momentum, due to having to PM a trial moderator back and forth for the remainder of the round because of a subjective interpretation of the rules as they were written at the time this was done. There could have been hostage-taking and outpost-fortifying, but instead I was dragged into a discussion about the nuances of certain rules. You can't claim that the round was fresh by any stretch of the imagination - it'd been nigh on three hours since the round start, and it's hardly as if this was my opening move. It was never my goal to remain undetected, and I didn't even bother with forensic countermeasures or disguises for any of my actions. The security team didn't even consider forensics; they simply chalked it up to a guessing game, shrugged their shoulders, and 'kept their eye out.'

Not that it's the most important of details, but: We actually did consider forensics. We also checked around cargo for supply logs a bit, but at the time, no turrets had been found yet, and we thought whoever was doing it was in science. Only after the turrets came up, though, did cargo become particularly suspect.

 

Ah, I should have clarified that:

When Garbage joined in, we still hadn't any Forensic tech/detective. But when we finally got one, his first lead was something about black gloves and armor or something, leading to security officer rather than Cargo.

Then the turret incident kinda changed that.

[EvilBrage]

I'd almost entirely forgotten about the turrets (that I almost killed myself with, that'll be a good story to toss into OOC at some point) - thanks for the reminder. Those may have actually done more damage than the supermatter detonation itself, come to think of it. Don't get me wrong - if we want to revise the rules to include ahelping before the detonation of any supermatter core along with the aforementioned things stated within the rules, that's fine and dandy. We live and we learn. I only have a handful of points:

 

2. We should not apply rules retroactively.
4. We should apply rules as closely to the language of the actual rule as possible, making corrections to the rules list as necessary.
   
6. Subjective interpretation of the rules should be left to those revising it, not those taking punitive action.

 

The rules should (not unlike most countries' laws) be an ever-changing document in line with what we've found acceptable and unacceptable over the years - something I've brought up time and again, and I'm actually very happy that the rules were changed. I just think it needs to happen far more often, and that we have no justification in any sort of punitive action unless they've broken the rule as it's written.

[Garnascus]

As for my reasoning, it was right next to my department (I blew it up right next to the cargo warehouse, mind), and because it was something loud and noisy that freaks people out that only cargo could possibly order. The plan was to get the heat on, kidnap someone (maybe someone wounded by the blast,) then bring them to the mining outpost before fortifying it. Then since the only person capable of causing the cataclysm should be me, security would show up and negotiations could ensue. This didn't happen because I was PMing Turtles back and forth. High-traffic implies that there are multiple people walking through the area. A low-population server doesn't have as many of these locations as a high-population server - so it really does matter, and as aforementioned, it was escalated properly.

 

I might find your reasoning more appropriate if you had not also taken out a spawn point according to turtle. Sorry but i do not really think some bombings and incendiary grenades are a good enough reason to detonate a super matter core near a spawn point. We also do prefer antags ahelp when they take on round altering things like that. Atmos and the engines power source are mandatory and similar catastrophic events are up to the judgement of the staff member. I think a supermatter core counts since its an explosion thats larger than the bomb comp. correct me on that though, i might be wrong.You dont have to get bombastic about your bomb threats but i do expect you to make a super matter explosion somewhat interesting BEFORE hand.

After all this you only netted a warning. A warnings only purpose is to serve as a reminder for you to not do a thing or to handle something differently. In this case all you have to do is make a super matter explosion a bit more interesting before hand or THE MORE IMPORTANT PART ahelp before hand. thats it, do that and thats as far as this warning has to go. We are not applying any rule retroactively. I would have warned you for this a year ago. This staff complaint is unfortunately not the place to debate our rules and moderation policy as a whole. Our staff has always been much more interested in the spirit rather than the letter of the rules. This is however an argument i am personally quite interested in though. If you want to make a post in the general forum or something i would gladly type you out several novels giving you my reasoning on why we do things the way we do.

[EvilBrage]

I think a supermatter core counts since its an explosion thats larger than the bomb comp. correct me on that though, i might be wrong.You dont have to get bombastic about your bomb threats but i do expect you to make a super matter explosion somewhat interesting BEFORE hand.

All explosions are subject to the bomb cap; the supermatter is no exception. The only effects it has that a bomb does not are that it creates ambient heat and causes a surge of nonlethal radiation when it explodes. The spawn point isn't even visible from where the supermatter exploded; if the gateway was compromised for any reason, I guarantee it was a moron overriding the shutter and opening the door. At that point, it's hardly my fault what happens to it. Not to mention - if we allow each (possibly trial) moderator to determine what's catastrophic, we'll eventually have a taboo on welder bombs because it vents a room too quickly, which "technically" messes with atmos, which is technically against the rules.

 

I would have warned you for this a year ago.

Mostly because we have a fundamental disagreement on how rules should be applied; we discussed this exact topic when you were a trial moderator too, and this is precisely why I took the positions that I did. If we warn someone for every infraction that may subjectively seem wrong to an individual staff member, we'll end up with long-time players with huge sheets of warnings that any incoming administrator will look at and say "wow, this person is a real shitter." To ShameOnTurtles' credit, I do appreciate the lengthy explanation under the warning, though.

[Garnascus]

Mostly because we have a fundamental disagreement on how rules should be applied; we discussed this exact topic when you were a trial moderator too, and this is precisely why I took the positions that I did. If we warn someone for every infraction that may subjectively seem wrong to an individual staff member, we'll end up with long-time players with huge sheets of warnings that any incoming administrator will look at and say "wow, this person is a real shitter." To ShameOnTurtles' credit, I do appreciate the lengthy explanation under the warning, though.

 

Its not just a disagreement with me though. Its also how all of our staff operate. The reasoning of why we made the rule in the first place is considered much more important than the actual wording. Most of the time though situations are pretty straight forward. In this case though i discussed it with a few admins on discord chat and we all pretty much agreed "yeah you deserved a warning here". Having huge sheets of notes and warnings isnt necessarily a bad thing. We look for patterns of consistent behavior when we ban someone. After about three months or so a note or a warning becomes a lot less relevant. Unless you're an odd case where you have months of inactivity and then you go back to being a massive shithead. Cases like that are super rare though.

[DatBerry]

Locking and archiving due to OP being inactive and not replying to the thread.

Though if you wish to re-open the complaint, You can PM me or another staff member.