Making Stealth Ops More Viable

[TishinaStalker]

Something that's always been in the back of my head is that nuclear operatives really have no option, but to go loud most of the times, and when they do go silent it's nothing greater than posing as assistants. If they wanted to do something more grand, such as posing as merchants or CC reps, then they're pretty much boned because Security and Command is immediately all like "Contact Centcomm now."

This leads to my suggestion. Wouldn't it be grand if the nuclear operatives had a console on their shuttle in order to make their own updates from Central Command? If the nuclear operatives had something like this, then they would be able to pull off more grander stealth schemes such as this. They would have an easier time boarding into the shuttle, and sowing the seeds of chaos while (IC'ly) not being under the constant scope of Security staff. If nuclear operatives had the ability to make their own CC updates, then Command and Security staff should have no IC reason to immediately go "Get Central on the horn" because it would be considered meta knowledge, and then they'd have to wait until the "Central Reps" do something more questionable; such as cutting power lines, breaking into areas, etc.

[Guest]

This would lead to: CC ANNOUNCEMENT:

Central Command has sent a small force of staff to your station to retrieve a very important object from the Captain's Office, those who interfere will be shot. Security are too assist the Team.

And then teh NukeOps would have the entire command and security team wrapped around their finger.

[TishinaStalker]

And at that point it is powergaming, and foregoing RP in order to play-to-win while simultaneously being against rules. All this means is that it's one, tiny issue that staff can easily make sure doesn't occur.

[Susan]

This isn't the problem with nuke. You're trying to put bandages over a scratch without fixing the broken bone.

The problem with nuke is that it exists at all. Get rid of it. I'm 100% serious; nuclear is only used to satisfy murderboner or robusting urges and I've never seen a single nuke round ever turn out favorably. It was not designed for a heavy RP server. It comes from /tg/, and like other modes imported from there (changeling) the gamemode is tooled to kill as many people as you can to stroke your ego. Heist is the RP version of nuke, so I'd say replace nuclear with heist, which is still awful but less so.

[Jboy2000000]

Im with Sue on this one, Nuke really isn't make for a heavy RP server, and the weapons and armour give to Nuke Ops only makes it easier for people to gank, grief and such. There was only ever once Ive seen a nuke op round go good, and that was when there were two admins on the side of the nuke ops, one of which being the team leader.

[LetzShake]

This isn't the problem with nuke. You're trying to put bandages over a scratch without fixing the broken bone.

The problem with nuke is that it exists at all. Get rid of it. I'm 100% serious; nuclear is only used to satisfy murderboner or robusting urges and I've never seen a single nuke round ever turn out favorably. It was not designed for a heavy RP server. It comes from /tg/, and like other modes imported from there (changeling) the gamemode is tooled to kill as many people as you can to stroke your ego. Heist is the RP version of nuke, so I'd say replace nuclear with heist, which is still awful but less so.

 

Not often I agree with you, but I definitely mostly do, here.

 

It comes from /tg/,

 

Except this. It comes from Goon. It's a much older artifact than just TG. And it was just as murderbony then. Though at least back then E Swords, bombs, and Revolvers were pretty much the only non-improvised weapons. But it was at least sort of balanced, because the weapons weren't as ridiculous as they are now.

The thing is I think we need an alternative to Nuke and Heist. Heist has aliens that are drastically different from the crew so they can't go stealth, and Nuke, stealth isn't as viable. A mode that is like those two, but encourages stealth, would be great.

[Razor111]

Really, we should make it more like an organized group of traitors. Something like a coordinated revolution. They'd have their own custom radios with a private channel, and would join the crew impersonating an actual NT employee. They could have their own station bounced radio but, they're missing all the gear a normal nuke ops would get. So they could try to organize their own murder-bone squad but, they would have to consume many points, steal from high security areas, and risk getting caught. In the end they would HAVE to use stealth in order to blow up the nuke but they lack l33t equipment that normal nuke ops has.

[Razor111]

This would lead to: CC ANNOUNCEMENT:

Central Command has sent a small force of staff to your station to retrieve a very important object from the Captain's Office, those who interfere will be shot. Security are too assist the Team.

And then teh NukeOps would have the entire command and security team wrapped around their finger.

 

I really doubt that something like that would not bring up suspicion in the crew, that's a signal to blow the horn for CENTRAL COMMAND.

[Guest Marlon Phoenix]

I agree. When playing ops I've always tried to go stealth, and the very last round I played with them I was the Op leader. I played it as the Jawdat family paying a bunch of mercs to go in disguised as CCIA, siphon station accounts, 'settle debts' by breaking a few kneecaps, then leaving after a gloat and post-round assuming to hide off in Elyra with new riches.

Our disguises were spot on, and we got pretty far - security was cooperative, and our excuses for coming in with blood red hardsuits was seen as sketchy but acceptable. We were under the microscope, but it was a fun game of cat and mouse to see when we'd make a mistake and blow our cover.

But then suddenly the ai goes "ALERT! ALERT! THEY'RE IMPOSTERS!", bolts us in, and everything goes to shit, because they faxed central about us.

I don't think that we should get rid of it entirely - you don't /have/ to blow up the station, so I think it should be renamed to "Operative" or something, and revolves around a team of antags getting on the station to achieve whatever it is they came on to do. Being able to write a limited number of command reports - using a hacked quantum relay to send a max of 2(?) announcements and being able to 'intercept' a fax to decide if it reaches CC a max number of times, would be a major help. It could even be an item that has to be purchased with crystals, leaving it an option part for those who want to go stealth.

[Gollee]

Possibly remove the actual nukes, and give them free objectives like traitors? Along with access to more items, and a warning about mass-murder/ganking/rambo.

[LetzShake]

Possibly remove the actual nukes, and give them free objectives like traitors? Along with access to more items, and a warning about mass-murder/ganking/rambo.

 

They already have an open objective. The nuke doesn't even actually work anymore as far as I'm aware.

[Frances]

People play nuke in a specific way because that's the way they expect it to be played.

Here's a secret: SS13 is a very open game. You can do whatever the fuck you want.

I'll still remember one of the best nuke rounds we've ever had. There was a nuke op who was kinda new, and started throwing around silly ideas, such as having the team disguise themselves as Jehovah's Witnesses. After a bit of talking, I managed to convince Nightmare to spawn a few bibles and chaplain's outfits in the syndicate ship. And then, the greatest thing happened - the ops actually attempted to disguise as traveling missionaries.

It failed horribly, everything granted - most of them ended up getting lost in space due to being unable to control their jetpacks, iirc. But some of them actually made it - and successfully infiltrated the station (after a fake CentCom report informing the station of traveling missionaries was sent by admins to help them along a little). And the lesson to learn here is that if you come up with an idea, no matter how wacky it is, no matter how insane it sounds, it can probably be realized.

Now, the issue is, how do we actually make that happen? Because people are used to a typical playstyle - bomb telecoms, raid armory, destroy supply shuttle computer. But what people don't seem to realize is that they can do anything, literally /anything/ with staff involvement. You wanna disguise as clowns? Sure, send an ahelp, we'll be glad to spawn you clown masks. But people don't know that, and they don't seem to be aware that they can come up with their own objectives (despite nuke being objective-less). Cause they expect the same old "take hostages, shoot sec, get the disc, blow up the station, run away". It doesn't have to be like that - you're Syndicate operators, perhaps you're going after certain crewmembers, collecting bounties, stealing science equipment, heck, even kidnapping scientists to force them to work for the Syndicate instead of NanoTrasen! Anything evil goes. And the possibilities only really end with your imagination.

I'm quite saddened to not see more people innovate when playing nuke - and I don't know how to fix it. (I see regulars, even staffmembers lead the nuke team all the time, and they still stick to the same boring approach, without a fault.) But I think as long as there's hope, nuke isn't a gamemode that should be removed. There is potential for RP in it, and all RP doesn't have to be everyday regular work activities - outside of events, nuke is the only roundtype that pretty much guarantees heavy action and crisis situations involving all of the crew at once. It has a great framework: a bunch of heavily equipped dudes come to wreak havoc on the station. It's just not executed properly, and needs more variety from the players involved.

[Susan]

People don 't do that because the roundtype isn't /conducive/ to doing that. I'm all for some kind of alternative to the shitshow that regularly is nuke but, quite honestly, I think that you're utterly full of shit when you say nuke leads to RP opportunities. It doesn't. People have no motivation to break the monotony because nuke is designed to be monotonous. It is designed around the sole premise that you're there to kill everyone, and you're equipped to do just that. There is no variation because the gamemode isn't designed to vary. It is one of the most rigid gamemodes and breaking the mold will result in angry people and explosions in dsay and OOC because nuke was not created with these intentions in mind. It's murderboner heaven, not RP world.

If you want groups of traveling clowns honking the station to death, cool. Nuke doesn't support that; I firmly believe nuke needs to be gutted in its entirety and then rebuilt from the ground up to be more focused towards heavy RP. It is a gamemode tooled only towards murdering the station and the crew with very little interaction beyond pointless hostage taking for the sake of hostage taking or getting shot at. While it may serve to satisfy base urges in our player base, I feel if you want to spend a round without RP to robust someone you can go to /tg/ or Goon.

Nuke needs to be redone. I think it should be disabled until then.

[Chaznoodles]

Personally, I think nuke is a huge change from usual antag rounds, and I adore it. it has a clear danger in the form of the activation of the nuke, and gets everyone involved.

 

Possibly remove the actual nukes, and give them free objectives like traitors? Along with access to more items, and a warning about mass-murder/ganking/rambo.

 

If we were changing anything about nuclear rounds, this is what I'd go with. Keep the point behind the nuketeam that they're an organised force sent by the Syndicate, but change the objective to be more RP-friendly. If they had free objectives, it would give them the option to decide whether they want to steal, cause general havoc, or take hostages, etc. This gives the players involved, both crew and antags, a lot more choices in regards to how the round would play out.

[Frances]

People don 't do that because the roundtype isn't /conducive/ to doing that. I'm all for some kind of alternative to the shitshow that regularly is nuke but, quite honestly, I think that you're utterly full of shit when you say nuke leads to RP opportunities. It doesn't. People have no motivation to break the monotony because nuke is designed to be monotonous. It is designed around the sole premise that you're there to kill everyone, and you're equipped to do just that. There is no variation because the gamemode isn't designed to vary. It is one of the most rigid gamemodes and breaking the mold will result in angry people and explosions in dsay and OOC because nuke was not created with these intentions in mind. It's murderboner heaven, not RP world.

If you want groups of traveling clowns honking the station to death, cool. Nuke doesn't support that; I firmly believe nuke needs to be gutted in its entirety and then rebuilt from the ground up to be more focused towards heavy RP. It is a gamemode tooled only towards murdering the station and the crew with very little interaction beyond pointless hostage taking for the sake of hostage taking or getting shot at. While it may serve to satisfy base urges in our player base, I feel if you want to spend a round without RP to robust someone you can go to /tg/ or Goon.

Nuke needs to be redone. I think it should be disabled until then.

The platform is "group of antagonists cooperating together to accomplish something bad". At this moment, nuke is the only gamemode which achieves that, besides cult, which I would argue is even more rigid, because you have the imposed horror/occult theme forced onto it.

I would like to hear some suggestions as to how you'd like to rework that into something that accomplishes the above purpose better.

[Guest Marlon Phoenix]

People don 't do that because the roundtype isn't /conducive/ to doing that. I'm all for some kind of alternative to the shitshow that regularly is nuke but, quite honestly, I think that you're utterly full of shit when you say nuke leads to RP opportunities. It doesn't. People have no motivation to break the monotony because nuke is designed to be monotonous. It is designed around the sole premise that you're there to kill everyone, and you're equipped to do just that. There is no variation because the gamemode isn't designed to vary. It is one of the most rigid gamemodes and breaking the mold will result in angry people and explosions in dsay and OOC because nuke was not created with these intentions in mind. It's murderboner heaven, not RP world.

If you want groups of traveling clowns honking the station to death, cool. Nuke doesn't support that; I firmly believe nuke needs to be gutted in its entirety and then rebuilt from the ground up to be more focused towards heavy RP. It is a gamemode tooled only towards murdering the station and the crew with very little interaction beyond pointless hostage taking for the sake of hostage taking or getting shot at. While it may serve to satisfy base urges in our player base, I feel if you want to spend a round without RP to robust someone you can go to /tg/ or Goon.

Nuke needs to be redone. I think it should be disabled until then.

The platform is "group of antagonists cooperating together to accomplish something bad". At this moment, nuke is the only gamemode which achieves that, besides cult, which I would argue is even more rigid, because you have the imposed horror/occult theme forced onto it.

I would like to hear some suggestions as to how you'd like to rework that into something that accomplishes the above purpose better.

 

To quote myself, since I believe my proposition (which is in line with what you proposed, Frances) seems to have been overlooked:

I don't think that we should get rid of it entirely - you don't /have/ to blow up the station, so I think it should be renamed to "Operative" or something, and revolves around a team of antags getting on the station to achieve whatever it is they came on to do. Being able to write a limited number of command reports - using a hacked quantum relay to send a max of 2(?) announcements and being able to 'intercept' a fax to decide if it reaches CC a max number of times, would be a major help. It could even be an item that has to be purchased with crystals, leaving it an option part for those who want to go stealth.

[firstact]

So due to reading this I'd like to pitch an idea of a mode we had on my old server. It was called infiltraitor. It was a very rp friendly nuke mode mixed with traitors. You had 3-4 operatives all with a pass phrase and response, and very minimal telecrystals. The objective was to accomplish multiple team traitor objectives (kill, capture, steal, etc.) And to coordinate with your team to detonate the nuke. It wasn't the best butt allowed for diverse playstyles.

Maybe the devs or anyone interested could base a game mode off that, as a replacement off that just as a foundation idea. It got surprisingly positive feedback and rounds didn't turn into extended unless the entire 4-5 person team screwed up somehow. Just thought I'd share this because I'm all for replacing nuke.

[incognitojesus]

Am I the only one who has ever seen a stealth ops actually work? If you have a /competent/ team, a good plan, with clear cut objectives and a viable motive, it works.

Furthermore, the issue with nuke isn't the game mode itself. There's nothing wrong with a heavily armed team turning their sights on a lucrative research station staffed by a monopolistic corporation. In fact, it creates what I like to call Action-RP. You know, that thing where we don't just sit around playing Work Simulator 2014 and filing paperwork with some water cooler conversation every once in a while? Calling it a murderbone event isn't such a strong point, seeing as most--if not all--of our game modes can (read: usually do) end up in murder. If we were to adopt that ideology, why not do away with traitor, autotraitor, traitorchan, changeling, vampire, heist, and all the other game modes with the potential for murderbone? Hell, why not get rid of extended in that case? I've seen more chaos caused during extended than most of the other game modes. We're failing to address the issue here.

Nuke is a TEAM game mode. This means that, without the cooperation of the entire team, it will almost always degrade into a shooting gallery, unless it is nipped in the bud. Therefore, stealth ops means you need the entire team on board completely. Yes, there is a leader appointed by RNJesus, but half of the time it becomes a democratic environment with each operative pitching in an idea then falling in to eventually do whatever it is they will.

There have been times when nuke was voted, only for the round to end with literally no contact whatsoever. Mission accomplished? Sure, but was it /fun/? Was there any RP, any of the role play that we came here for. No, there isn't. So, I'm not shooting down stealth ops, nor am I advocating for Call of Duty: 2456. A healthy blend of action, stealth, AND most importantly, roleplay would be the best route to go.

TL;DR - Mix it up, blame the players not the game mode, and that action-RP exists.

[Guest]

People play nuke in a specific way because that's the way they expect it to be played.

 

Therein lies the kicker. See today Nuke ops tried a new strategy where we were going to recruit people instead of blowing up the station. The whole team was on board with the plan and so I used the PDA to contact a scientist. Under the only name it uses, John Doe, I contacted a crew member and merely sent a message saying "Hello".

What happens? They tell Command, Command flips out and wants to see the message and immediately goes straight to Red Alert. Best yet, they never even get to see this message because it doesn't appear on the messages list. So the Captain and RD go straight to red alert off of one message they can't even prove, from a John Doe that says "Hello". They didn't even consider it could be like numerous spam messages they get.

Why did that happen? Because the round mode at the top said "Nuke". They were itching for the first sign of anything and immediately escalated conflict when the smallest thing happened that could be interpreted as not usual.

Its not just up to the nuke team. Its also up to the crew to be receptive. Given the game mode's reputation and long history of expectations people have for it, that just isn't going to happen. People join and vote for Nuke with expectations and anything that happens will be filtered through the expectation of explodey boomtime killman mode.

For creative, non-war type Nuke to happen not only does a team of 2-5 people need to hold back on using massive power unlike the rarely receive, but a crew of 10 or more need to be on board with not jumping to red alert the first time they stub their toe or hear a spooky noise. I don't think that's bound to happen at all and if so only very very rarely.

The name Nuke has history and expectation and it cannot deviate from that expectation unless it loses its history, which means it will have to stop being Nuke.

[hivefleetchicken]

When I'm an operative, I ignore the nuke disk. I tend to just go for the vault cash and EVA without losing a single man because security and the rest of the crew all crowd to the armory and Captain's office the instant they know we're there. I suggest removing the nuclear disk itself, since the nuclear bomb is worthless without it, and no one huddles around the Cap's office also.

[Guest]

Possibly remove the actual nukes, and give them free objectives like traitors? Along with access to more items, and a warning about mass-murder/ganking/rambo.

 

They already have an open objective. The nuke doesn't even actually work anymore as far as I'm aware.

 

It does. Have you ever armed the nuke?