RoE Rant and Antagonists

[Guest]

Lately, I've been seeing a lot of shitty action-based antagonist rounds where people have been doing some really questionable things. It tends to destroy the RP very quickly and end the round just as fast.

Let's start with security.

RoE stands for Rules of Engagement. These are basic guidelines on how an officer of the law should approach a situation with varying levels of escalating force. The problem lies with an officer either using too little or far too much force without thinking about their own well-being. Ramboing sec officers is not a cool thing at all, nor does it make sense for them to do so. They're just your average Joe, in no way would they want to die for something so inconsequential as useless hostages in comparison. At the same time, they don't want the hostages to die either.

So the officer is stuck in an ultimatum. Do I rambo and risk my own life and the hostages' life at the same time for a very low-chance success operation, or do I allow the antagonist to do as they please and get what they want, without any deaths?

That last part should be considered more often. When calculating risk, you're likely better off staying away from where the antagonist is hiding, with a gun to one or more people's heads.

In real life, police officers are armed with lethal weaponry to subdue suspects that are likely to threaten their own life, and so this gives the officer a noticeable edge. Additionally, it is absolutely forbidden for police officers to use their weapon to maim or disable a suspect/offender. They are instructed to shoot the target until they are still.

Does this mean every security officer needs to kill every single hostile every single time? No. But if you're more likely to be killed whilst the suspect is still alive, then you're better off killing the enemy outright rather than just stunbatonning+bucklecuffing them and actually taking them out of the round.

This does not excuse a security officer for switching on his lethal mode for the 4 energy carbines he has in his bag and immediately goes off to hunt nuke ops as soon as the threat is confirmed.

If a nuke op is in the middle of a hallway without a weapon raised, you're not allowed to shoot to kill. If a nuke op is actually interacting with the crew in some way and not posing some violent threat, then do not fire upon them. Investigate the matter first. Consult your security staff and Commander. Ask for help and assistance on the matter. Do not take matters in your own hands and ruin perfectly good RP for no raisins besides wanting to fuel your own ego.

If a nuke op has an energy carbine set on stun, then stun them. Incapacitate them, in that case. As soon as their intent changes to be able to kill, and they are shooting at YOU to kill, put them down quickly. Don't take prisoners. Just gun him down decisively and quickly. Specifically speaking, a nuke op player would rather die being semi-useful rather than live being useless and bucklecuffed to a chair whilst staring at the plasteel walls. So, grant them that pleasure if they're deadset on being a killer.

Now, about non-lethal situations. This includes revolution or any kind of rioting or seditiousness. HoSes, please don't go for loyalty implants right away. This is anti-fun for antagonists and there's no way to even remotely escape it. An antag would rather be brigged for 30 minutes and be able to antag a bit later or be released by his fellow antags for more juicy RP. Going straight for loyalty implants as soon as someone whispers, "vira da revolucion", and you have no idea what's even going on in the first place, is just silly. Everyone in general: Please consider that antagonists on this server go through a lot of thinking for what they want to do as an antag before they attempt to do it. They won't always be able to counter every situation, such as throwbatonning as soon as you see the guy. Like, really? Please, even if it makes you look like an incompetent ass, it's more fun if you let an antagonist get away with one or two things and then capture them once the station is set aflame by utter chaos.

And as for Riot Control. A lot of you probably have no idea what to do in a situation that requires putting down a riot. Peaceful, yet loud and boisterous protestors, are not subject to immediate harmbatonning+bucklecuffing+straightjacketing. As a security staff member, it is your duty to secure the station and minimize risk and costs during certain situations. Even if whatever they're rioting about is stupid, you need to listen. You need to put yourself in their shoes and understand why they are ICly pissed off about what's going on. Keep your shield firmly placed to the ground with both hands on the top of it. Your stun baton or flashbangs or tear gas does not come out until they are violently protesting. You do not hit people until they hit first. Being a security officer is about being reactionary. Reacting the wrong way or even acting first is very much subject to criticism.

Just remember that pixelated little asshole(s) that's burning your station down is one, having fun doing it, and two, is actually a real person with hopes, dreams, and 2d spessman feelings like just you. They want to have a good and fun round too. Don't ruin it for them.

[Jakers457]

I'm all for this. I can't tell you how many times I get gunned downed as an antag without allowing me to either surrender or respond. I recall one time I was breaking into tech storage, and all I had was a tool box but I was still shot up, nearly died too. Another time I was a cultist in the warehouse, and I was one of the unarmed individuals by the wall but I still got gunned down. Sure those situations are stressful, but if the person has nothing in their hand then you don't shoot them up.

[LetzShake]

If a nuke op has an energy carbine set on stun, then stun them. Incapacitate them, in that case. As soon as their intent changes to be able to kill, and they are shooting at YOU to kill, put them down quickly.

 

Actually I believe even in the case of nonlethal threats both in real life and as part of Security's SOP, you are authorized to use lethal force. Because once they down you, they can do anything they want to you.

That said I think security should use nonlethal methods in general, HOWEVER the problem is tasers are really nigh-useless in an actual combat situation because people just ignore pain crit until the game drops them. So that leaves flash weapons and stun batons, both of which are sometimes quite unreliable.

Gunplay in this game in general just leads to problems, and while I think your suggestions are well thought out, ultimately the problem is too deep to be fixed with this.

[Susan]

What you fail to realize is that taking a hostage does not and should not mean the antagonist has a free card to get whatever they want. In reality, during a hostage scenario, police set up sniper teams and breach teams and more often than not make a move on the hostage takers either at the location, or when they deliver things they wanted. They also can talk people down, but in this game, no one gives a shit because all they want is whatever objective they've set for themselves. People refuse to respond to being talked down, or wantonly kill hostages in their custody. Newsflash: killing a hostage tells me you don't give a shit and I need to risk breaching and clearing because you're unhinged and very little is stopping you from killing innocent people.

Further, if there are noncrew in the hall with weapons, you'd better believe I'll be shooting with lethal intent. I don't know what you're going to be investigating, the dude with the SMGs ass? Chicago police certainly don't roll up and when they see a gangster with a Mac 10 politely say 'sir please drop the weapon' while smiling at the guy. They point guns at him. They shoot him if he makes a move.

Security is not obligated to use non-lethal force on all the snowflakes so their rounds can continue. If you want to break the law and walk around with a weapon or fire at officers or civilians or be an idiot and get lit up for it, that's your prerogative. Just because non-lethal weapons can be ridiculously OP doesn't mean they need to be the solution to every problem. If you people don't want to get shot and killed, don't make yourself a threat. I've seen crew do things from saw the CMO's head off to try to cablecuff some dude and refuse to even tell security what is going on. Have you ever thought that the problem isn't security, but yourselves?

Stop crying about being arrested for the simplest things. Stop bitching about shitcurity when you want to be a drug addict and get arrested for it. Stop whining that you got shot to death by a sniper for taking a hostage. If you hadn't done those things to begin with you wouldn't be in the situation you are now. Having to constantly put up with the second guessing, and scientists and doctors trying to tell me how to do my job, and everyone being mad no matter what you choose in a situation is tiresome. We're also people, with feelings, and whatever fluffy bullshit you want to say, you know.

And you know what? I don't give a shit if someone is an antag. I honestly don't. I treat non-antags and antags the same whenever they're arrested. Even if I OOCly know someone is an antag I've released people because of a lack of evidence. However, this means I am also not going to metagame the other way. If I OOCly know someone's an antag I'm not going to give them special treatment. I'm not going to cut their timers or sacrifice my character to metagame. Just because you're of the opinion this 'aids' RP doesn't mean it isn't any less metagaming. You're letting OOC knowledge impact IC actions. Everyone is treated the same; that is fair. Being an antag doesn't get you a get out of jail free card.

Edited December 9, 2014 by Guest

[Guest]

Good points, Sue. My lunch break just finished, so when I return from work I'm going to rant about bad antagging.

[Guest]

"If a nuke op is in the middle of a hallway without a weapon raised, you're not allowed to shoot to kill. If a nuke op is actually interacting with the crew in some way and not posing some violent threat, then do not fire upon them. Investigate the matter first. Consult your security staff and Commander. Ask for help and assistance on the matter. Do not take matters in your own hands and ruin perfectly good RP for no raisins besides wanting to fuel your own ego." ~1138, sorry, I fail at using the quote system.

Yeah, we don't really have a public SoP, so most people I think tend to go off of the Baystation one, which states in their Corp Regs section, that if someone is armed with lethal weaponry, and isn't a member of security authorized to do so, lethals are authorized to disable them. I agree with Sue on this completely.

[Skull132]

Response is escalated in accordance with any given situation.

Jumps in escalation can be used to gain initiative in a given situation.

Two sets of rules that I abide, both while playing Sec and while playing antag. If you have the situation under control, then you are, generally, free to prod and poke with less than lethal means, try creative problem solving, etcetera. However, should you find yourself sorely lacking that control, you need to attain it, in order to minimize the effect any given opposing side can have on you, your troops and assets. Now, this is not me saying, "You lack control? Go ham." Careful and precise application of force is very effective at locking down any given force aboard the station, barring Nar'sie: lock down a few halls, post a few patrols, force the enemy back into a single room, even if by visual/perceived threat alone.

This is a rule set that applies, as I said, while I'm playing either side. Antags need to recognize that the harder you try to twist the arm of the station, the more liable they are to try and kick you in the teeth. Recognize this, and use this. Provoke a hyper-responsive security force and watch the fun unfold as they chase and mill about, all the while you quietly tend to your own business, for example.

On the side of the rules, I will say one thing, though. Don't be a hero. Security is a force that should not initiate, or potentially even sustain, an engagement unless they lack a numerical advantage of 2:1 or higher. They are not trained for individual combat of that caliber. Antags are given this liberty due to the fact that they already deploy in a small team composition, at which point individual skills are expected to be higher, and tactics trained to the point where conducting an engagement with odds of 1:2 or worse will result, at the very least, the survival of the individual.

Just my 2 cents.

Oh, and shooting bald officers because they are being retards with a baton is dumbshit. Taser them down and cuff'em, or better yet, bang'em. Don't go hunting for a bloody laser rifle. You'll get your ass canned for being an incompetent leader who doesn't know how to properly assess a situation.

[Tenenza]

I'm going to drop my two cents here and say something.

Being an Antag shouldn't be a get out of jail free card, but making the game less fun for everyone else isn't acceptable action either. Yes, there are tons of stupid people, but it is absolutely no fun to just kill them and be done with it. Cuff them, arrest them, let the Warden do their job instead of sitting at their desk wishing for something to do, let the Detective interrogate them, tracking implant them, whatever. That's better then just shooting them dead, because honestly, doing all the little things and having something to do as Security other than patroling the halls, is actually pretty fun for some people. Realism shouldn't get in the way of creating a more fun experience for everyone. So yeah, instead of, say, charging into a hostage situation, Security negotiates while stalling for time, gets Cargo to order actual Sniper Rifles, and then sets up several shots from offscreen so the targets doesn't see what hits them, they get landed flat on their ass and stunned, and then the guys with Stun Batons come in and cuff them. Because that sounds way more fun to me.

So yeah, Antags are there to create fun for everyone, and frankly a whole lot of them try really hard to do that. So, maybe don't give them a get out of jail free card, but at least give them the benefit of not being flat out murdered at every turn. Particularly for Antags that are creative and try something unique and different. It's their Job to help create fun, but you've got to at least meet them somewhat halfway. Particularly if you're a head, since it's your responsibility as well to make the round enjoyable.

[Erik Tiber]

Tenenza- I totally agree with your post. I personally would be willing to suspend my disbelief if it means having in-depth RP like that, and I think many people would do the same.

[Tainavaa]

Tenenza- I totally agree with your post. I personally would be willing to suspend my disbelief if it means having in-depth RP like that, and I think many people would do the same.

 

What he described is a perfectly realistic scenario, actually. It wouldn't be unbelievable in the slightest in a real world situation, given that the hostage holders were armed with intent on extortion at the hostage's expense.

[Guest]

Alright, let's start up with what makes me tick about antagging. And I would know, considering my own moments of utter shittery and royal doucheness.

Right, as Sue said above, antags are not free of repercussions from their actions. A life of a crew member should be handled very delicately if you aren't planning on killing them. Most of the time, if they die, you lose your leverage and will likely die too. As an antag, seeing how hard you can kick a dog before it starts biting back is not a recommended course of action, because you are likely to get bit. If that dog is rabid/robust, it's going to keep biting until you're lying down bleeding and dying.

Let's start with a good example of my own antagging.

One round as an autotraitor rolled captain, I decided to make up an event (it was of course real in relative terms of the round, but non-canon for the lore), where the NT Navy was making aggressive movements on Sol Alliance-owned colonies where plasma deposits were abundant. As a result, NT Cruisers were nearing Alliance warships in their typical positions nearby Mars. As Vira's loyalty implant was hacked and she was functioning as an agent for the Alliance, Vira would set events into place and warn her own staff of the impending and retaliatory seizure of the NSS Aurora, to divert the attention of NT's Navy assets away from Sol Alliance space and towards recovering the Aurora whilst officials from both parties attempt to perform diplomacy to fix the issue. Therefore, Vira then used her emag on the Communications computer to call in a SolGov strike team to seize the Aurora without any unnecessary casualties. Vira told security to put down their weaponry and comply with Alliance soldiers. Instead, security armed themselves up and attempted to take on the highly equipped squad with Deathsquad-tier gear. As expected, they failed. Six people were killed in the bar for being silly. Everyone else still living were transferred via the emergency shuttle or escape pods. Anyone else left on the station was assumed to be captured by the Sol Alliance and imprisoned as attempted fugitives. This round was non-canon, of course, but it was a lot of fun for myself to usher in these results. Skull pulled up a votecount of the round and a lot of people liked how it went, some others were pretty impartial though.

How about my bad instances of antagging, then?

Let's see. I once blew myself up in Toxins as a changeling because I didn't know how proxy sensors worked, thus gibbing myself, I once "ganked" as a malf'd engineering borg and RCD'd some areas off from the AI core and totally overhauled the AI core's setup when the AI was confirmed to be hostile, and I outrobusted a Warden with 3 energy carbines by smacking him over the head with my RCD several times until he went into crit and I left him to die whilst spamming *beep. I also blew up atmos, cargo, and the armory, and also piled all the weapons into one armory crate as a nuke op once, completely denying security from countering us. I also went full-blown murderboner changeling and got 16 actual kills by just spamming ranged deathsting whenever I had the opportunity. The rest of the changelings and myself had killed the entirety of security with very little RP and I ended up realizing how scummy it was in the end. And the list goes on because I can't remember any other shitty instances.

In short. Be creative. Don't do what everyone else does every nuke round because it "works" to some extent. It's not fun for security to get their armory blown up and robbed every round and having to resort to the slowness and how limiting it is to order weapons from cargo. Do a fun gimmick, try something new or something you haven't done in awhile. Play other servers and observe how robust other people are. I recommend /tg/ or Sybil or whatever it's called now, it always has an influx of excellent and wacky antags. Just because we're heavy RP doesn't mean you can't ask the admins to spawn in Syndie clown gear to fuck over the station and make them panic like hell. You don't have to do the same old, boring, powergamey thing where you blow up telecomms for radio silence, take the cargo computer for LWAPs, and blow the armory sky-high to keep sec from reacting.

Just remember to make your experience and the crew's experience fun and crazy at the same time. There's LOADS you can do. Just remember to ahelp if you want to do a gimmick, more than likely, the admins will definitely be glad to help you if it's fleshed out enough of an idea. Note that they probably won't do the clown thing, unless it's FFrances. FFrances will always be your guide to be a robust clown.

[Guest Menown]

Don't be a hero.

 

That right there made me the only survivor on a nuke round security force. When met with an armed operative, my taser was little match for a ballistic, so I had no choice but to lay down my weapon. Previously, I had seen that the operatives were originally doing non-lethal stuff, I.E, stealing stuff. My objective once I saw that, was to secure civilians, and when I got most of who I could to a safe point, I was free to lay down my arms, and left the operative cuff me, as preservation of self is last in the duties of security.

Now, if I had fired on the operative, I would have been cut down instantly, as I was not armed with a suitable weapon to counter a ballistic weapon. So, my only choice was to either fight back, or upon seeing that the operative, as well as his guy coming around the corner had me at a disadvantage.

[spacevoidagent]

I like this post.

Also, as soon as the antag is spotted, PLEASE do NOT order a LWAP.

[Guest]

No. :3

By the way, you bumped a really, really old post that probably does not accurately reflect my worthless opinions on antagonists anymore.

I mean, it's literally titled 'rant', you sure you wanna take this more than a grain of salt?

[Ian The Corgi]

Good post... Got the feels for it because of a round as a raider, we announced peaceful intentions and asked to trade. sec stunned us as soon as we got onboard. Two of us escaped and were later asked to peacefully come in for questioning, after explaining all this they buckled me to a roller bed in a straightjacket and muzzle for the last 45 minutes of the round ._.