MrFix Posted January 7, 2017 Share Posted January 7, 2017 BYOND Key: FatBaldBastard Total Ban Length: - Banning staff member's Key: Ricky madenson Reason of Ban: "Please, remember that as a member of security, it's expected that you're familiar with approaching hostage situations. When provided with little information, try and gain as much to determine what would be the best approach to deal with it. As for escalation against a "hostile", assure when it is appropiate to deal with them non-lethal or lethal. Other than a flashbang, no other means were utilized against the RD that suggested they were stunproof entirely. Basing on such weak assumptions would make you look like a borderline validhunter, which I take you did not intend to be. Please watch out for this in the future." Reason for Appeal: I believe I've acted by the letter of SOP and made proper decision as of how to handle this situation. I was playing my warden character during a low-population round, with no Head of Security, no captain, 1 Officer and 1 Forensic Tech alongside me. Early in the round the officer responded to church brawl, where RD attacked Chaplain and seemingly put him into coma, officer reporting that Chaplain lost a lot of blood during the fight. The officer set out to arrest RD, but himself was disarmed and captured in RD's office. Since beside me and FT there was no one else on the team, once the call of "Officer down!" came through on the radio we went out to save our colleague and capture the madman. Once on site, I saw that 1) RD was holding out in his office with officer. He was dressed in: Standard RD uniform, no armor, no head protection, no eye protection. He was wielding: Stun baton. 2) He was bolted in by AI response, unable to escape 3) Officer was being abused by constant electro-shock I ordered the man to release the officer and surrender. RD failed to do so. I ordered him again. He failed to do so. He then threatened officer with death. At this point I sized up the situation and figured that RD has no meaningful way to execute the officer, especially if I quickly disable him, thus both 1) Rescuing the officer 2) Apprehending the criminal with no loss of life. If I lingered, RD could've figured out a way to escape or could try to destroy the cyborgs that were assisting us via the cyborg console he was near. I deployed a flashbang under the men's feet, he had nowhere to hide and it went off right into his face. We were all surprised that the madman didn't go down, but instead released a cloud of deadly bats and sinked long sharp teeth into the officer's neck, starting to actively harm him. I understood that the officer was now in the process of being murdered AND non-lethal means have failed, so in order to at least save the officer, me and FT deployed lethal means to take him down. In the ensuing brawl, three living officers and two cyborgs barely managed to stop the madman, as he quickly started murdering the assault team thanks to his powers enhanced by Frenzy mode. My warden, himself, was disarmed and put into critical state during the fight. Only the fact that the vampire had to fight more than one person saved him from death. The hostage was seemingly also in critical state after being taken out by the rampaging RD, but medibot brought to the fight helped him. In response to this, I received a warning above. I had no way of knowing, sans metagame, that the person in question was a vampire, as such I had no way to predict that my proper escalation and non-lethal means would prevent me from easily defusing this situation. I had no reason to sit and wait for RD to figure out a way to escape, considering that officer was being simply stun-locked and RD had no way to actually murdering him that was apparent (there simply was no reason for your average RD to be able to release bats or use his teeth as deadly weapons, nor should he be able to punch so hard people start dying). If there was a legit way for me to find out that the person in question was more dangerous than he looks, I would've taken a different approach, but what the admin issuing the warning demanded from me is unrealistic, as when flashbang went off, the vampire started to use force both against the officer and us, blood drinking and dangerous bats. Taser, in this situation, would solve nothing and only add to the body count of this gruesome situation. I'd like to have this warning removed as I believe it was applied wrongfully and I would rather not have something that is not legit to stick with me through the rest of my stay on this server. Link to comment
Blingx3 Posted January 7, 2017 Share Posted January 7, 2017 Hello, I was the RD in question. as I remember a borg was inside while I was holding the officer, and the borg did try to apprhend me, but since I was holding the officer by the neck and screaming about ending his life, the borg decided to back off, the borg did ask for my demands because that's what reasonable in a hostage situation . now you enter the scene and it was not even a complete minute untill you arrived that all hell broke loose, you didn't evaluate the situation correctly. you yell one time to me to let the officer go you wait for a few seconds, open the door and throw a flashbang. now what happens next ?in middle of all the mayham you and the tech get injured, and the officer I was holding is in bad shape because of the escalation and rush, I(Research director) a head of staff end up dying. do you see that as an acceptable end to a situation that could've been difused by words and negotiation. rather than having people injured and dead by unnecessary escalation. all of the above happend as you arrived, all the madness happend when you escalated, there are other ways to carry out RP. and by the way I did not destroy the borg, I locked it down. why ? because I know it sucks to be taken out of a round in a split second without no RP, and the borg which I belive was Bit did RP with me and make conversation. Link to comment
MrFix Posted January 7, 2017 Author Share Posted January 7, 2017 It only escalated due to your role as an antagonist that I had no way of knowing about. I've explained in my post that if the bang worked no injuries would happen. Link to comment
Blingx3 Posted January 8, 2017 Share Posted January 8, 2017 It only escalated due to your role as an antagonist that I had no way of knowing about. I've explained in my post that if the bang worked no injuries would happen. actually it escalated because you threw the flashbang, I think the main point that you rushed things, when you could've just taken some more time to evaluate things. Link to comment
SierraKomodo Posted January 8, 2017 Share Posted January 8, 2017 It only escalated due to your role as an antagonist that I had no way of knowing about. I've explained in my post that if the bang worked no injuries would happen. actually it escalated because you threw the flashbang, I think the main point that you rushed things, when you could've just taken some more time to evaluate things. Â This pretty much nails the issue from what I understand. Instead of communicating or negotiating with someone who you thought had no weapons, you chose to throw a flashbang and try to do what we tend to call 'ramboing' and 'validhunting'. Just because you're not an antag, that doesn't mean you aren't held to the same standards as antags when it comes to furthering roleplay and not ruining people's rounds for the sake of 'winning' the engagement. If an antag stops and takes the time to actually say he has a hostage, that player wants to RP and communicate. When security takes that as the chance to attack without communicating back, you create an atmosphere of 'Well, security's going to rambo me anyway, I'm just going to attack them on sight'. Downward spiral happens from there. Link to comment
Pratepresidenten Posted January 9, 2017 Share Posted January 9, 2017 Ait, so. I played the secborg, Bit, and from my standpoint, the whole encounted turned into a clusterfuck once the warden and detective showed up, weapons drawn. The RD had the officer pinned to the ground and a stun baton in his hand, not hurting the guy, just occationally prodding him to keep him down. The RD was only screaming about his ritual for whatever, then said he'd let the officer go. I barely had a chance to type out anything to the responding security personnel before I was yanked out of the office so the warden could get a clean shot. The warden then chucked his grenade in there to no avail. The vamp was fired on with non-lethals with shit to show for it afterwards, and it wasnt a lot of shots discharged before lethals was game. I told them to cool the fuck down a few times, trying to get inbetween them and the RD, aswell as informing them that the downed officer's vitals were peachy. At some point I managed to pull the warden out and get in and into the line of fire, RD took this time to huddle up into the corner next to llamar's cage, trying to heal up, and I told him to get down or be forcefully put down. He didnt comply, so I went to drain my cell by stunprodding him which obviously had no effect. I quit after a few prods as I needed to sustain myself, and the RD hopped the rack. Pretty sure I took a few bullets in the side as I dragged the downed officer out of harms way. RD popped bats after he had been pelted with stuns and lethals the entire encounter, and he went down eventually. The engi borg that was there pitched in by burning its flash out trying to keep the RD down, and then someone (I dont remember who) starts beat the living hell out of the downed vamp, until he eventually kicked the bucket. It was a really shittly handled situation that could have been resolved in so many other ways, and a warning is really nothing in this matter considering this level of shit could have gotten you secbanned. You used excessive force on a somewhat calm, practically unarmed head of staff without any intel on the situation at hand other than "officer down", when you could have asked any of the involved parties for a situation report. Link to comment
Ricky_the_banshee Posted January 12, 2017 Share Posted January 12, 2017 Oh man, a staff complaint. Okay, I will prevent from repeating myself from what I've said to you during our PMs and simply hit on the headlines. The main issues I tried to point to you were your character's IC lack of understanding of the situation on simply ran into blindly. While I understand that the observation of a fellow officer been downed on the floor with a man sitting ontop of them with a baton may seem intimidating, it's then when you're required to negotiate and gain as much knowledge to determine how to approach the situation. A borg actually requested you to back off since the RD threatened before to kill the officer IF anyone attempted to stop him from doing whatever he was doing at that point. As far as your warden's "orders" went, they only consisted of loud demands and "GET DOWN", which if you think about it, won't solve a thing. The borg even stated that the situation was being handled and yet you went on with the /flashbang/. So, now to the flashbang. I understand that it's an item that would have likely dissolved the situation quickly, if it werent for the RD to be a vamp. But okay, your warden couldn't have known that they were one. Infact, a flashbang COULD have been the best solution should negotiations have turned out to fail and your fellow officer would have been on the brink of death. However, my point was that /after/ the failed flashbang, you immediatly pulled out your Energy Gun ON LETHAL and decided to pop a few shots at the RD. Most of the shots missed because either of poor aim or due to obstacles, but it was clearly your attempt to just gun a HEAD of Staff to death without any other attempts of non-lethal measures implemented. The only ones who actually bothered to try and use batons or flashes were the borgs that were present during the whole conflict. Just because one of your non-lethal measures fail doesn't mean you get greenlight to terminate somebody with lethal measures. That only counts for WHEN they actuall retaliate, and that happened because you decided to ignore further attempts of negotiating and pulling out your Energy Gun. The rest that nagged me while looking into the situation have already been pointed out by other members of the community as you can see above my post. I would have caled it "bad luck" if it were for your warden to just stun them and be on with it, but it was your decision to pull out the E-Gun and gun them. Even after the RD was wounded, and pretty much immobile, your warden went on to bash them a couple of times in the head with a stun baton on HARM intent. Yet another example of validhunting behaviour, I'd say. But that was overlooked as the main issue remained your poor choices that led to diffusing an interesting conflict that could have been solved through negotiations or talks. In the end, as praten has said; There have been cases where players actually got secbanned for these kind of things. I left you off with a warning because A. It was your first violation B. During our talks, I assumed that it was not your intention to dissolve the RP on purpose. C. Because I know that warnings allow players to reflect on past mistakes and remind them not to repeat them. I wouldn't dare to immediatly throw the temporary secban on you to prevent demoralizing you from ever player Security again. I hope this makes you understand why I insisted on the warning. Link to comment
Shadow Posted March 13, 2017 Share Posted March 13, 2017 Begone ye old thread. Locking and archiving due to inactivity from the OP. Link to comment
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