Medborgs: Please Let Them Do The Following Fundamental Things Important To Their Job

[Surrealistik]

#1: Unbuckle patients from roller beds (you can buckle them in, but can't get them out? What?)

#2: Put corpses in the DNA scanner.

#3: Pick up pillbottles with the Chemgripper.

#4: Manipulate IV bags/IV drips.

All of these things are pretty critical to chemistry and doctoring, with #2 being most important.

Edited January 31, 2017 by Guest

[Pratepresidenten]

#1: Unbuckle patients from roller beds (you can buckle them in, but can't get them out? What?)

There are plenty of workarounds for this "issue" (Cryotubes, scanners, surgical tables).

If you have a mighty need to unbuckle patients, the Rescue module is just the thing for you! =)

 

#2: Put corpses in the DNA scanner.

To be honest, calling people over to help you with this can have a lot of rp value.

 

#3: Pick up pillbottles with the Chemgripper.

This is in the process of getting fixed.

[Surrealistik]

#1: Why does it have to be complicated with roundabout solutions though?

#2: It can. Unfortunately, there are also cases where time is of the essence, and medbay is otherwise abandoned, beyond the difficulties/delays in getting people to actually respond and help. I experienced a pretty frustrating round where a vampire killed a great number of people and I simply could not get the bodies cloned because there was no one to help, leaving them out of the round for far longer than they should have been.

#3: Sounds good.

One thing I forgot to mention is the inability to manipulate IVs/IV bags.

[Skull132]

I'm gonna use a silly phrase here but I think it'll get the message across: hand-creep.

Here's the thing. Borgs are meant to be limited in their application and purpose. And by no means are they meant to be able to do everything a human can do in their field. This is the reason why they don't have hands! Unconsciously extending their capabilities bit-by-bit in this regard (interacting with the world in an intricate manner) would basically be the same as power creep, but, with hands. so, hand-creep!

#2 is a definite "Nope". Cloning is an operation that should be overseen by actual staff, and not performed by station bound synths. The only exception maybe being a synthetic purpose built for such shit. An actual borg built around a mobile cryo/cloning tube might be interesting as shit, though limited in operational freedom. Which is fine. Further! Cloning is not fundamental to medical! Not by a mile!

#3 has been answered.

#4 starts heading down the same territory as #2.

#1 Will have to mull on this. Or just watch this thread to see what ideas are put up. Borgs cannot unbuckle people from anything 5ever because no hands. Changing this for lollerbeds would be interesting. Onions are welcome.

[Chada1]

#1: Medical 'borgs aren't meant to be retrieving people (Doesn't mean they can't) via Rollerbeds, that's what Rescue (And it can unbuckle Rollerbeds) is for. Know your Module and this isn't an issue. Go Rescue if you want to be playing the Rescuer and not the treater. However, you can place people into the medical Scanner and Cryopods to unbuckle them.

#2: 'borgs aren't meant to be Cloning by themselves, they're meant to need help in some tasks, and they definitely aren't meant to do everything in their department with no help.

#3: They can pick up pills, but not pill bottles. There's a reason for this, it's for selective feeding of pills, and to stop Chemists from being completely obsolete. Drag, place in a crate, or something else.

#4: 'borgs CAN manipulate IV drips, the thing is, they can't put Bloodbags on them. It's another case of #2, they aren't meant to be doing this by themselves flawlessly, they need help.

You're not meant to run the Station by yourself as a Station-bound, you have your own duties and are actually just meant to assist and fill in the gaps of Crew, while also following the Directives given by Crewmembers and the AI.

I'm saying this as a pretty much exclusive 'borg player, adding these things to the main Medical Module would make Rescue entirely obsolete, which isn't cool.

[Surrealistik]

#1: Alright, given the Crisis model that's fair enough. I still think it's a bit silly though that you can manipulate the roller bed on a halfway, limited basis. To differentiate Crisis borgs I think it'd probably be better to give them a mobile one man stasis pod/sleeper not unlike those on the Oddy mechs rather than crippling the Medical borg's roller manipulation (also perhaps a speed buff; I haven't played one on Aurora yet, but by default they're just as slow as a standard borg incredibly), thereby cementing it as the better choice for rapid response.

#2: Cloning is a pretty vital function of Medbay. Honestly I don't see how it's less vital than say surgery which Medborgs can do completely autonomously, but which can be bypassed in most cases via peridaxon and bicaridine. If there was to be a module devoted exclusively to cloning, wouldn't that be overspecialized? Also, denying Mediborgs the ability to do this can have horrible repercussions for people who must sit out the round for an indefinite period because of this arbitrary limitation, such as in the case of that Vampire round I mentioned earlier; had about 6 corpses by the cloner and couldn't do anything about them; 6 people out of the round for more than an hour that could be in the game and roleplaying.

#4: It is a similar case to #1 since a borg can actually achieve the desired end outcome, just in a very roundabout way by transferring blood using its integrated syringe; in otherwords, it just feels like a needless obstacle. It might also be possible to input a beaker into the IV using the chem gripper; will check next time I'm on.

[Fiskap]

Note that you can just get a random crewmember to help you with placing the corpse into the scanner for cloning. Mediborgs shouldn't be able to do all of cloning unassisted, but if you're not willing to find help among the crew to do that while 6 people are dead, then that's your own fault honestly.

[Skull132]

Re: 2. Notice how there's a borg module specifically for surgery, that's butt useless in most other cases, due to his toolset. Also, borgs not having hands is not an arbitrary limitation. As for your example, there already exist alternatives to resolving those situations. Get a human to shove bodies into cloner, voila. It is perfectly acceptable to have the AI/Borgs handle cloning machinery with a human simply acting as a loader, has been for years. There's also the 30 minute respawn timer, so your point of, "They're out of the round 5ever," is unfortunately moot.

Re: 4. Arm-creep. The fact that they can kinda-sorta do it in a more laborious way is not a reason to simply go the full mile. Borgs do not have hands. If their player is smart enough to figure out a bypass with tools available to solve the situation, then great! Props to the player! But it doesn't mean we should just take a step back and give them the ability to do it fully unhindered.

[Surrealistik]

Note that you can just get a random crewmember to help you with placing the corpse into the scanner for cloning. Mediborgs shouldn't be able to do all of cloning unassisted, but if you're not willing to find help among the crew to do that while 6 people are dead, then that's your own fault honestly.

 

It's hard to find a volunteer when the entire station is in complete chaos due to a rampaging vampire who has killed and injured so many people.

[Surrealistik]

Re: 2. Notice how there's a borg module specifically for surgery, that's butt useless in most other cases, due to his toolset. Also, borgs not having hands is not an arbitrary limitation. As for your example, there already exist alternatives to resolving those situations. Get a human to shove bodies into cloner, voila. It is perfectly acceptable to have the AI/Borgs handle cloning machinery with a human simply acting as a loader, has been for years. There's also the 30 minute respawn timer, so your point of, "They're out of the round 5ever," is unfortunately moot.

 

The medical borg is capable of doing virtually every aspect of Medbay including chemistry albeit excluding cloning; not just surgery. Further, yes, there's a respawn timer, but they can't come back as the characters they want to play as.

 

Re: 4. Arm-creep. The fact that they can kinda-sorta do it in a more laborious way is not a reason to simply go the full mile. Borgs do not have hands. If their player is smart enough to figure out a bypass with tools available to solve the situation, then great! Props to the player! But it doesn't mean we should just take a step back and give them the ability to do it fully unhindered.

 

I'm just not sure what purpose this serves, either narratively/ICly (why would you handicap a medical borg, especially one intended to do surgery, such that it couldn't handle IV bags) or OOCly/mechanically (if you don't want a borg to do something it shouldn't be able to do it outright as opposed to being merely a roundabout PITA).

[Skull132]

Medical borg is probably a mistake, I much prefer the older surgeon module. Should have made a chemistry module alongside it, tbqh. Also, you should not take for granted playing a single character. At least, not without accepting that you may be denied the opportunity based on what happens in the game. Life is easy-come easy-go in 2d spessmen.

As for the purpose it serves. It's a matter of direction. Enabling all of which you have presented, for the reasons that you have presented, puts us firmly moving in one simple direction: borgs ending up with de facto arms and hands. And borgs ending up with hands would make them objectively superior to humans. Their concept is that of a caged genius: an all access ID, all the crew trust in the world, but restricted role and ability to directly influence the world. These seemingly "arbitrary", pointless, etcetera, nuances contribute greatly to this image. "I'm capable of destroying this station if I wanted to. But I need you to shove this cadaver into the cloning pod for me." Humans are limited by knowledge, borgs by their capacity to apply knowledge.

Also, according to Scopes, and my memory, back in ye day, borgs weren't able to shove corpses into cloners. And it worked out just fine for years.

Edited January 31, 2017 by Guest

[Surrealistik]

If the Medical Borg is a mistake, then that's definitely true of the Engineering Borg based on the range of things it can do in its department.

I'm also not sure the slippery slope argument applies; the Mediborg would only be getting capabilities that make sense in its defined role as a synthetic that deals with medical related matters. If it could start manipulating things that are clearly beyond the purview of its designated and specialised role, _then_ there would be cause to worry about borgs with hands.

[Skull132]

That's kinda the slippery slope, though. "Can do everything a human can do, but only in their designated department." Thus making them comparable to humans, simply restricted to their department. It's one further step down that slope.

Addendum to prevent double posting: slippery slopes aren't only about the destination. The journey is equally important, and justifying taking another step down that slope with the excuse of, "Well, it's not the destination, so we'll be fine," is not really valid.

[Surrealistik]

I thought that was the point though; they are masters of their field as hyperspecialized custom purposed machines, but useless outside of it, in addition to being law constrained.

[Chada1]

#1: Alright, given the Crisis model that's fair enough. I still think it's a bit silly though that you can manipulate the roller bed on a halfway, limited basis. To differentiate Crisis borgs I think it'd probably be better to give them a mobile one man stasis pod/sleeper not unlike those on the Oddy mechs rather than crippling the Medical borg's roller manipulation (also perhaps a speed buff; I haven't played one on Aurora yet, but by default they're just as slow as a standard borg incredibly), thereby cementing it as the better choice for rapid response.

 

I agree with the idea of differentiating, I just really don't want the Module to be made entirely obsolete. I've been told in the past that it's less about blocking you from the actions entirely, and more about just forcing you to do it less optimally or intricately, so that you CAN do the task, but not as well as a proper Crewmember.

 

#2: Cloning is a pretty vital function of Medbay. Honestly I don't see how it's less vital than say surgery which Medborgs can do completely autonomously, but which can be bypassed in most cases via peridaxon and bicaridine. If there was to be a module devoted exclusively to cloning, wouldn't that be overspecialized? Also, denying Mediborgs the ability to do this can have horrible repercussions for people who must sit out the round for an indefinite period because of this arbitrary limitation, such as in the case of that Vampire round I mentioned earlier; had about 6 corpses by the cloner and couldn't do anything about them; 6 people out of the round for more than an hour that could be in the game and roleplaying.

 

It is a potential issue, but as pointed out, you can find someone to put the person into the DNA Modifier, and take it from there. AIs/Station-bounds are expected to be able to use most machinery as far as I know, without any issue.

 

#4: It is a similar case to #1 since a borg can actually achieve the desired end outcome, just in a very roundabout way by transferring blood using its integrated syringe; in otherwords, it just feels like a needless obstacle. It might also be possible to input a beaker into the IV using the chem gripper; will check next time I'm on.

 

The thing that makes a good 'borg is working around these technical limitations to serve your laws, Cyborgs aren't supposed to be able to do everything a Crewmember can do in the same way, maybe they'll have to do repeated injection, or maybe they'll have to get innovative, the way my 'borg does it, it just goes and gets an iron vitamin supplement (Pill, not injection) to naturally raise the Crewmembers red blood cell count.

 

I'm just not sure what purpose this serves, either narratively/ICly (why would you handicap a medical borg, especially one intended to do surgery, such that it couldn't handle IV bags) or OOCly/mechanically (if you don't want a borg to do something it shouldn't be able to do it outright as opposed to being merely a roundabout PITA).

 

I had similar concerns when I started playing 'borg from a regular Crewmember, but you're given a very versatile set of items in your Module, you may not be able to do all things in the same way as actual Crew in your department, but you're given full access, a suite of equipment to use, and a multitude of technical limitations to overcome, but that's part of the experience, you're a Robotic entity, even more Robotic than IPCs. It's part of the experience, and that's part of why I love the role. I'm sorry, but as a 'borg player, I really don't want a 'borg to be able to do Everything that a Crewmember can do, a general jist? Yes, but it's part of roleplaying such a Robotic entity, and i'd hate to see it gone.

[Skull132]

I thought that was the point though; they are masters of their field as hyperspecialized custom purposed machines, but useless outside of it, in addition to being law constrained.

 

Scope of the field counts, though. Entire department, unhindered, for one module == too much.

[Surrealistik]

I agree with the idea of differentiating, I just really don't want the Module to be made entirely obsolete. I've been told in the past that it's less about blocking you from the actions entirely, and more about just forcing you to do it less optimally or intricately, so that you CAN do the task, but not as well as a proper Crewmember.

 

That's the thing, I think they should be _better_ than a crewmember at their specific field because they're specialized machines. The advantage of being a crew member is freedom of will and flexibility the Borg doesn't have.

Crisis borg would have its niche guaranteed with a speed buff + Oddy style sleeper pod I feel.

 

It is a potential issue, but as pointed out, you can find someone to put the person into the DNA Modifier, and take it from there. AIs/Station-bounds are expected to be able to use most machinery as far as I know, without any issue.

 

Again, it's difficult if not impossible to find an assistant in a high chaos situation such as the one I mentioned. I didn't go without a loader for lack of trying.

 

The thing that makes a good 'borg is working around these technical limitations to serve your laws, Cyborgs aren't supposed to be able to do everything a Crewmember can do in the same way, maybe they'll have to do repeated injection, or maybe they'll have to get innovative, the way my 'borg does it, it just goes and gets an iron vitamin supplement (Pill, not injection) to naturally raise the Crewmembers red blood cell count.

 

Yes, iron would be my first resort due to how inefficient blood transfer is as a borg. That said this limitation on IV bag manipulation simply doesn't make any sense, and is either arbitrary (seriously, why IV bags in particular?) or an oversight.

 

I had similar concerns when I started playing 'borg from a regular Crewmember, but you're given a very versatile set of items in your Module, you may not be able to do all things in the same way as actual Crew in your department, but you're given full access, a suite of equipment to use, and a multitude of technical limitations to overcome, but that's part of the experience, you're a Robotic entity, even more Robotic than IPCs. It's part of the experience, and that's part of why I love the role. I'm sorry, but as a 'borg player, I really don't want a 'borg to be able to do Everything that a Crewmember can do, a general jist? Yes, but it's part of roleplaying such a Robotic entity, and i'd hate to see it gone.

 

The experience of being a specialized robot I feel is actively captured by your specialized tools and the range of capabilities they define, not by your inability to do things within your field that you should most certainly be able to do.

@Skull132: I disagree; again, that humanoids have free will and the adaptability afforded by hands is huge and I feel is underestimated relative to the specialized advantages of a borg.

[LordFowl]

Binned. Borgs are limited by design. All of these can be handled either by a different module or just shouldn't be done by borgs alone.