Evandorf Posted July 6, 2017 Posted July 6, 2017 BYOND Key: Evandorf Staff BYOND Key: IncognitoJesus Game ID: bPk-dtJE Reason for complaint: Appeal of Name change - IncognitoJesus pointed me here for appeal Evidence/logs/etc: http://www.filedropper.com/log2017-07-06519pm Additional remarks: I was bwoiked because of my Character name "Roy Earle". Incognito said it was a reference and that it was ahelped. I chose this name because I liked the sound of it. I do share the name with a secondary character from a video game but I do not reference it in my gameplay and it is a normal name and not outlandish. I have played this character for some time, although not consitantly and I would rather not have to abruptly change the name or make a new character.
Brightdawn Posted July 7, 2017 Posted July 7, 2017 Was the character a detective? Or just any other random job?
Brightdawn Posted July 7, 2017 Posted July 7, 2017 He is a detective. Then yeah. I really don't think Jesus did anything wrong. Jamie Oliver might also be a fairly common name but if you had him as a chef then it's pretty clear you're making a reference and that's against the rules.
Evandorf Posted July 7, 2017 Author Posted July 7, 2017 My point is that this is a very deep rabbit hole to go down. Human names are not uncommon and with enough people's collective knowledge of fictional or historical characters you will eventually have someone complain. Incognito told me that how long I've been playing the character doesn't matter so long as someone recognized it and ahelped. To stress a point, here is a historical naval officer that I was able to find with just a few seconds of googling. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raymond_Hawkins The character's name I share is a secondary character in an ill received video game. I liked his name because I thought it sounded like a good detective name.
Scheveningen Posted July 7, 2017 Posted July 7, 2017 Roy Earle is a secondary antagonist in the crime thriller video game L.A. Noire. He is a detective who works the Vice desk and is a corrupt cop. He is the protagonist's partner during his time at the Vice desk until Earle leaks that Cole Phelps is cheating on his wife due to the fact that Phelps was generally incorruptible. L.A. Noire was a AAA video game title. Sorry, we don't allow reference names to mainstream mediums like that. Anyone who says L.A. Noire is a bad game has bad taste tho in my opinion.
Evandorf Posted July 7, 2017 Author Posted July 7, 2017 So the standard by which names are judged is subjective, based on the content or media that is most consumed by the station players? A video game character is off limits. A historically famous admiral isn't. A german mathimatician isn't. https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adolf_Hammerstein
Scheveningen Posted July 7, 2017 Posted July 7, 2017 Do you see the difference between these people and Roy Earle, perhaps?
Evandorf Posted July 7, 2017 Author Posted July 7, 2017 No. The rules say avoid reference/famous/joke names. I'm saying that what people consider references is based on the media they consume. What people consider famous is based on what history they know and what circles they move in. It's all subjective and human names are not uncommon. The point I'm making is that other long time people on the server have names that are shared with people in those catagories and that some degree of intent should be taken into account. I did not make this character to represent the character from LA Noire. I don't think Raymond or Adolph meant to represent their famous counterparts either. If I want to get really pedantic I can cite what the definition of reference is. noun noun: reference; plural noun: references 1. the action of mentioning or alluding to something. I'm not alluding to the character in the game, I'm not trying to emulate it,or call attention to the fact that it exists. I simply liked the name.
Evandorf Posted July 7, 2017 Author Posted July 7, 2017 I should also point out that the rules say "Avoid" those names. Unlike other guidelines that say "No honorifics.. ect" avoid is softer language.
Scheveningen Posted July 7, 2017 Posted July 7, 2017 Yes, but a sign that says, "Avoid trespassing, trespassers may be shot" is probably not a good line to be toeing, especially considering the accuracy and trigger-happiness of private security on protected property nowadays. The difference between names like Adolf Hammerstein, Raymond Hawkins, etc., is that they are obscure names, not even close references to pop culture at large. Adolf Hitler is not a good name because it is only picked to be offensive, for instance, and Adolf Hitler is a prominent dictator figure. Thus, not really a good RP name, at all, in the case of Adolf Hitler. Roy Earle, however, is a memorable corrupt cop from an arguably memorable video game. It's not really so much whether you agree with the admin about this, the major thing is merely understanding *why* an admin might make a ruling like this in terms of the context of the rule. I'm not saying your detective *shouldn't* be named Roy Earle. It is a pretty plain name, but there's a ton of coincidence with Roy Earle, NanoTrasen detective, also sharing a name with Roy Earle, Los Angeles Police Department Detective, Vice Desk. It's honestly up to incog if he wants to change his mind and decide to allow it. It is a pretty plain name, I agree. The MO we're used to in reference to the naming rule is that, we notice someone has a name reference to a video game character, we key up our macros to yell at trials to get shit done, they don't get shit done, so someone else has to take it, and then business goes as usual.
Evandorf Posted July 7, 2017 Author Posted July 7, 2017 OK, I agree with you that the name is more recent, arguably more popular among the people that play SS13, but that's not what the rule says. It doesn't say popular references or recently famous people. Arguably the more obscure you get in a popular video game the more OK a name gets. If I made an HoS named William Worrell would it be any better? The answer doesn't really matter because without knowing the name to search most people wouldn't know who it was or be able to track it back to the Chief of Police in LA Niore and there would be no one to bring it to the admins' attention. He arguably is as much of an antagonist of the game as Roy, he just doesn't have as much screen time. All that being said, it looks like there'll be no movement from you guys on this. I told Incognito when he spoke to me in game and I'll say it again; this is pretty damned petty. I've played this character for months and heard not a peep. Now I'll have to remake him. It should be mentioned that when Incognito asked me for a new name for the round in question I told him to make it "Troy Earle" and he seemed ok with that so I don't see necessarilly what it accomplishes when a one letter difference is acceptable. And no sign says "Avoid Tresspassing" they all say "No Tresspassing".
incognitojesus Posted July 7, 2017 Posted July 7, 2017 In general, avoid reference/famous/joke names, please. These are the rules, and you can argue the semantics as much as you'd like, but at the end of the day, it is still a reference name. You say that you didn't mean for it to be a reference, but at the end of the day: Your character has the name Roy Earle, the character it references' name is Roy Earle. Your character is a detective, and the character it references is a detective. You are attempting to lawyer the rules by pointing out other examples wherein there are characters on station who have the same name as historical figures, but you fail to mention the brevity of those wikipedia articles, and even a simple Google search can show you the difference between those examples: It's interesting that you try to downplay the significance of this reference by saying that, "Well, if I can dig up an article on Wikipedia about these other characters, why aren't they considered reference names???" While I agree that at the end of the day, staff judgement is what should determine whether or not something is a reference, here's the thing. L.A. Noire, the game that Roy Earle is from, was pretty significant, and the character you reference is one of the main antagonists of a game that sold literally over five million copies and was the fastest selling new IP in the UK. I'd say that a hell of a lot more people know who Roy Earle, the sleezy detective from LA Noire, is than Raymond Hawkins, the Chief of Naval Supplies and Transport for the UK. Hawkins' player himself has even stated he has no idea who the hell the real-life Raymond Hawkins is. If you really wanted to go further into the reference, you could say it shares the same name as Roy Earle from that one Humphrey Bogart movie, but see this is where you draw the line. Your character has no similarities to the Bogart character at all, and so wouldn't have been considered a reference. But the amount of cards that make up the deck here are too many. It isn't just a game that's popular among people who play SS13, but was a major-selling title that a lot of people played. The rules are plain, and they say to avoid reference names, and famous names. Roy Earle is both a famous name and a reference name. The amount of time it flew under the radar is irrelevant, and I highly doubt you'll have to, "make a new character," only change the names as many before you have when PMed regarding this issue, and many will after the fact. I'll hold for the headmins to make a decision here, but I am not changing my mind.
Evandorf Posted July 7, 2017 Author Posted July 7, 2017 "Well, if I can dig up an article on Wikipedia about these other characters, why aren't they considered reference names???" First, I would appreciate it if you didn't try to undermine my arguments by quoting language I didn't use. I don't see your point in bringing up the fact that my character also shares a name with a character from an older movie. If anything it helps make the point for me that you could be referencing a character you've never heard of. I've never even seen the movie in question and you can choose to believe that or not. My overall point has been that what can be a refernce is subjective, the wording of the rule is softer than other rules in the same catagory, and that intent and consequences should be taken into account when it's enforced. I bring up the other characters like Hawkins and Hammerstein to show that a rigid interpretation of the rule would not end well for many players. I chose this name simply because I liked it and for no other reason. It's not some off the wall goof that is intended to break immersion or make a tongue in cheek reference with a slight nod to everyone who gets it. I think the amount of time it took for soneone to recognize it should be a point in favor of the character's osbcurity. In actuality, I would have to make a new slot and remake the character because I cannot change the name in character creation. Byond that, even just changing the name obliterates any and all relations, reputations, and story I've created with other people while playing this character. It is not a simple process.
Evandorf Posted July 7, 2017 Author Posted July 7, 2017 I get the feeling that you think I'm trying to get away with something here. I don't know how else I can say this but I simply don't want to have to start all over again with a new character because a name I chose isn't as obscure as I thought.
incognitojesus Posted July 7, 2017 Posted July 7, 2017 You really don't. You could just ask any admin to change the name for you. I don't think you're just, "trying to get away with something here," I'm applying the rules because it was reported by another player and is believably a reference. To be honest, you've alluded to being aware of the origins of the name within this very complaint, which is from a video game. It's not a rigid interpretation of the rule, it's literally just... the rule?
Evandorf Posted July 7, 2017 Author Posted July 7, 2017 Yes, it is a rule and half of my arguments have been trying to show that enforcement of the rule is subjective. I think we both agree that enforcement is at the discretion of the staff member. Both you and Scheveningen have mentioned obscurity/relevance and I think there is a line somewhere between obscure and obvious where, once crossed, the applicability of the rule is untenable. If I had made a blatant reference to a more popular character and it had been caught days after creation, this wouldn't be a problem. But the amount of time that has passed, if good for nothing else, should indicate some level of obscurity. At the same time it has allowed me to build relations with and repuations among other characters on the server. My main issue with changing the name isn't the technical one. It's the fact that a new name means a new person and IC'ly this character is wiped out of existance. That's not something that an admin will be able to help me with. In short, the determination is subjective, I don't believe that the name is a blatant violation, and I'm asking you to reconsider and grant a bit of leniency based on the damage it would cause to me (the erasure of hours of play and RP) versus the disturbance caused to the other players (one recognition in several months).
Synnono Posted July 7, 2017 Posted July 7, 2017 For what it's worth, I don't think that IJ is asking you to erase your character or his experiences. He seems to simply be asking you to name your detective something other than the name of this other detective. Any IC confusion with people you regularly interact with could be cleared up in a moment of LOOC explanation, and then everyone can carry on with their shift. Retcons happen all the time. This one just happens to be rule-enforced, even if it came later than you anticipated.
Evandorf Posted July 7, 2017 Author Posted July 7, 2017 For what it's worth, I don't think that IJ is asking you to erase your character or his experiences. He seems to simply be asking you to name your detective something other than the name of this other detective. Any IC confusion with people you regularly interact with could be cleared up in a moment of LOOC explanation, and then everyone can carry on with their shift. Retcons happen all the time. This one just happens to be rule-enforced, even if it came later than you anticipated. That is still a huge pain. It again raises the question of what other names are acceptable. Originally Incognito had no trouble changing it by one letter to Troy. I really don't care for that name so would another slightly altered name do? Like Leroy, or Royal?
Garnascus Posted July 8, 2017 Posted July 8, 2017 look man. I would love to tell you we are omniscient and always catch things the instant they appear. sadly that is not the case. So yes you might get away with playing a reference name for a good while until a staff member finally notices. Its hardly our favorite rule to enforce but its a rule for a reason. it seems to me your character name was a pretty straight forward reference. Nothing much else to say here really.
Evandorf Posted July 8, 2017 Author Posted July 8, 2017 look man. I would love to tell you we are omniscient and always catch things the instant they appear. sadly that is not the case. So yes you might get away with playing a reference name for a good while until a staff member finally notices. Its hardly our favorite rule to enforce but its a rule for a reason. it seems to me your character name was a pretty straight forward reference. Nothing much else to say here really. I understand where you're coming from on this. It seems to me that the common stance is "Rules are rules and they will not bend for any circumstances." I've had a couple nights now to sleep since this began and I'm no longer angry about it but I am disappointed that it seems little consideration is given to the severity of the infraction or the ramifications for the player. Since this is how the rule is executed, I would recommend that the language of the rule be changed. As I said in previous arguments, "avoid reference names" is softer language than "absolutely no reference names" and I took that to mean that there are some circumstances (obscurity, ect) where it would be allowed.
Garnascus Posted July 9, 2017 Posted July 9, 2017 I understand where you're coming from on this. It seems to me that the common stance is "Rules are rules and they will not bend for any circumstances." I've had a couple nights now to sleep since this began and I'm no longer angry about it but I am disappointed that it seems little consideration is given to the severity of the infraction or the ramifications for the player. Since this is how the rule is executed, I would recommend that the language of the rule be changed. As I said in previous arguments, "avoid reference names" is softer language than "absolutely no reference names" and I took that to mean that there are some circumstances (obscurity, ect) where it would be allowed. I am afraid that is not gonna happen. "avoid" is pretty clear language considering what the words actual definition is. Some rules can be bent a little depending on the situation. this isn't one of them. I am going to consider this resolved and it will be locked and archived in 24 hours.
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