Defibrillator brainstorming and feedback.

[Sebbe]

So as some of you know I'm thinking of coding and adding defibrillators, and with this I will of course not make then purely good as everything good needs a bad. Some things I've decided on so far is this:

Max death time before defibs are useless; 5 minutes. I decided on this as cloning is still a thing(for now.)

Brain damage after 2 minutes of not defibbing making them not come back like nothing happened.

Damage threshold on 40 brute damage, unable to defib if above.

I don't have anything else in mind at the current moment but i take suggestions as (hopefully) one day this will phaze out cloning as some people dislike it (like me.)

[Korinra]

I'd like to give a few thoughts on this:

1) In reality, a defibrillator is made to correct heart rhythm, not restart a stopped heart. It's a common misconception that they're used to restart the heart, but that simply isn't the case. If the heart is beating in a strange rhythm, the intent is, BRIEFLY stop the heart so it resets in rhythm.

2) Having defibs, encourages medical to rush to every recent death to "save" them. In previous topics, I've discussed how medical already tampers with criminal scenes and endangers crew by rushing to the injured. Sometimes, people get injured for a reason outside of medical's control, for instance, if a person attacks them. Rushing to the scene endangers the medical personnel, and increases the risk of upsetting antagonists into harming other crew members. For this reason, defibs add an OOC desire to "save", which causes IC negative backlash. In truth, I think Medical should ONLY ever go to an injured person when help is requested. And if they detect someone has died, contacting SECURITY should be the priority, not bringing back the dead. If you want to see an improvement in RP, make death have a consequence, make it take LONGER to be brought back. Make it difficult for Medical to get to a dead body, not easier and faster.

The reason defibs work so well on some servers, is they don't care about the RP nature of life and death. The game centers around the 'find antag/eliminate antag' mentality. If someone dies or gets wounded, that's where the antag likely is, so everyone should RUSH there to capture them. In an HRP setting though, we should look at reality for suggestions. In reality, people don't expect medical to rush to the recently deceased, they expect police to, so they can investigate WHY there was a dead body.

I like the idea of defibrillators having a use, but not to bring back dead bodies. It would be nice if during surgeries, small risks could happen that cause certain things to be required. For instance, an artery gets nicked and now you need to 'apply stitches' to seal it. The trauma of surgery causes the heart to begin slowing down, give it a jolt to speed it up with the defib. This makes surgery more of a minigame than a list of 100% successful steps. Failing to react could cost a patient their life, which gives an RP chance between CMO and surgeon, a chance for the CMO to confront the surgeon and discuss the mistake. It also adds punishment for dumb behavior, like jolting yourself on a door because you decided you needed to know how to hack doors even though you're not an antag, and don't have gloves. Well now you get to spend some time unconscious, and POSSIBLY even dead, because you couldn't just act like a normal person.

Because of this reasoning, I will recommend against this idea.

-1

EDIT: Beyond all this, I ALSO agree about wanting to take out cloning. Death should count for something on an HRP server.

[Zundy]

Don't make them defibs and let's use this opportunity to get rid of the wound that is closing.

Make is a machine (Tsao Machine invented by Dr Tsao Heng). It requires an intact corpse to be fitted with a cranial implant and a chest implant. You use the machine on the prepared corpse and it brings them back to live in critical with extreme damage regardless of how damaged the corpse was previously. After the now revived patient is treated for their damage, they under go a month long recovery lore wise in which the patient experiences chronic aches and pains due to the rival process (mechanically not reflected in game imo as that seems too harsh but hey if folks want it in go for it) after which the implants are removed. Treatment is expensive as hell but NT gives you it as work perk.

This way cloning can be done away with, there's no "time limits" to when some one can be revived but at the same time it takes longer to be brought back.

Thoughts on this?

[Sebbe]

Don't make them defibs and let's use this opportunity to get rid of the wound that is closing.

Make is a machine (Tsao Machine invented by Dr Tsao Heng). It requires an intact corpse to be fitted with a cranial implant and a chest implant. You use the machine on the prepared corpse and it brings them back to live in critical with extreme damage regardless of how damaged the corpse was previously. After the now revived patient is treated for their damage, they under go a month long recovery lore wise in which the patient experiences chronic aches and pains due to the rival process (mechanically not reflected in game imo as that seems too harsh but hey if folks want it in go for it) after which the implants are removed. Treatment is expensive as hell but NT gives you it as work perk.

This way cloning can be done away with, there's no "time limits" to when some one can be revived but at the same time it takes longer to be brought back.

Thoughts on this?

 

This sounds awesome and I would love it more than bringing defibs here, more scientific stuff here makes more sense... problem is that this was sorta supposed to be my virgin coding product, based off code from a simmilar codebase. I am not that good at writing code but I can read it.

I will not make sprites and the project will take way longer, but I can try.

[K0NFL1QT]

My first thought was; yes, bring back defibs. Because I do greatly miss being able to save the recently deceased, without it always requiring cloning.

But then, after reading, I realised something better. Something new. Something that could be unique to Aurora. A way to revive the dead, without defibs or cloning. It can even be introduced in lore as a technological advancement, the new post death treatment to replace cloning; a machine that literally rebuilds a corpse to a living state, chemically rejuvenating it and regrowing organs and tissue where needed. Combine the philosophy of cryo tubes and cloners into one machine; the Lazarus Rejuvenator. Obviously, it will be expensive to use, and take time. But you no longer have that post-clone existential dread of 'who am I'; with a rejuvenator, the end product is just a healed version of the you that was injured. Obviously it will be a time consuming process and expensive, requiring synthmeat, clonexadone, peridaxon and perhaps other drugs such as the magic phoron to achieve.

[Sebbe]

My first thought was; yes, bring back defibs. Because I do greatly miss being able to save the recently deceased, without it always requiring cloning.

But then, after reading, I realised something better. Something new. Something that could be unique to Aurora. A way to revive the dead, without defibs or cloning. It can even be introduced in lore as a technological advancement, the new post death treatment to replace cloning; a machine that literally rebuilds a corpse to a living state, chemically rejuvenating it and regrowing organs and tissue where needed. Combine the philosophy of cryo tubes and cloners into one machine; the Lazarus Rejuvenator. Obviously, it will be expensive to use, and take time. But you no longer have that post-clone existential dread of 'who am I'; with a rejuvenator, the end product is just a healed version of the you that was injured. Obviously it will be a time consuming process and expensive, requiring synthmeat, clonexadone, peridaxon and perhaps other drugs such as the magic phoron to achieve.

 

this seems easier to code and removes cloning at the same time, im for this aswell.

[Pratepresidenten]

I do like the idea of a regenerative machine that can bring you back from death. And I Like the fact that you've put a lot of ingredients and shit in it for it to do its thing.

It should be extremely resource heavy, and very time consuming. Perhaps a varying rejuvenation timer based on how fucked the body is? With say.. A minimum of 5 minutes for the recently deceased, and up to 10 minutes for the most injured? Give the medstaff a need to assess damage, rank and whatnot, instead of just shoving some random body in the thingo. Priorities!

[Sebbe]

I do like the idea of a regenerative machine that can bring you back from death. And I Like the fact that you've put a lot of ingredients and shit in it for it to do its thing.

It should be extremely resource heavy, and very time consuming. Perhaps a varying rejuvenation timer based on how fucked the body is? With say.. A minimum of 5 minutes for the recently deceased, and up to 10 minutes for the most injured? Give the medstaff a need to assess damage, rank and whatnot, instead of just shoving some random body in the thingo. Priorities!

 

I'm thinking a heavy powerdrain + expensive resource use + 5-10 minute timer.

Anything can be changed of course.

Also thinking it is unable to do bodies that are rotting.

[MO_oNyMan]

How is

Tsao Machine

or

Lazarus Rejuvenator

different from cloning?

The problem of cloning is not the post-cloning syndrome. It's the lack of weight behind the death itself which is instated by allowing anyone to be brought back at any time.

From what i read:

Tsao machine is absolutely the same thing, requiring the somewhat intact body remains + some tech and replacing mental issues with physical pain (which is even worse since it takes from psyhologists' plate).

And Lazarus Rejuvenator trades the same thing (post cloning syndrome) for the need to gather chemicals and materials (again, taking from psychologists).

Both of them leave the concept of cloning (using the old body to revive a guy regardless of how badly he was robusted) unchanged.

Defibrilating on the other hand removes the psychological part as well, however it trades it with the fix to the main problem - the lack of consequences to death. Although instead of using the caps of brute damage, i would suggest moving to an already existing and pretty cool system which is brainmed (as was suggested a couple of times before), where death and healing system in general revolves around the brain and its activity. Defib is a cheap and straightforward thing that can still be used to get players back into the round and it makes slightly more sense to have defibs on board of a research station or (hopefully) a trading hub than [insert elaborate technology name] setup. It's pretty weird to have [insert elaborate revival technology name] considering we have specialised medical stations for that (which can lore-wise still have cloning if you want to make it a part of your character). What is even weirder is that fact that every crewmember seems to have a cloning insurance (that i assume should be a pretty costly process) including (oh god, why) visitors

Moreover i think that making reviving extremely time/resource-consuming will not benefit the players as they will be stuck as a ghost, unsure of whether someone will get to bringing them back or not and whether something will happen throughout the process that will fuck up their revival and waster their time, while with defibbing on a timer you can be sure to hit that respawn button/accept a pAI pop-up/etc. when you see a medic declare your death and move your body to the morgue.

Now this raises the concern of medical doing stupid shit in an attempt to save someone's life before they die "completely" and yes that is likely to happen (they already do it a lot), however a clear policy on such interactions should be able to negate this issue (or at the very least not make it worse).

tl;dr Brainmed is the way

[Korinra]

The problem of cloning is not the post-cloning syndrome. It's the lack of weight behind the death itself which is instated by allowing anyone to be brought back at any time.

Moreover i think that making reviving extremely time/resource-consuming will not benefit the players as they will be stuck as a ghost...

 

Those are conflicting thoughts in my opinion. For something to have weight to it, it NEEDS to have a chance of failure, a long delay, a punishment for dying as it were. That IS the weight. If you feel like you can be brought back always at any time, there's no weight to death, so knowing that you will have to wait a while for a CHANCE to be brought back... THAT makes death feel more heavy. Frankly I'm of the camp that this is how it should work:

Defib takes you out of crit for a while. Like, you go critical, defib removes you from critical for 60 seconds, but also does a little bit of burn damage. This allows for a way to keep people conscious without having to use injections/pills, but at the cost of temporarily hurting them. Now should the victim ALSO be receiving treatment, the burn damage will not be a problem to mitigate, and you can save a life. That's more on par with how defibs really work.

Once a person dies, that (to me) should be it. You died? Guess you can come back as a different character for the round, but that guy is DEAD. The Odin (which admittedly lore wise has MUCH more sophisticated equipment, will revive you. Victims of death will be cremated on station to avoid 'clone syndrome', and the 'dna genome' that the Odin has will be used to form the clone. That way you never run the risk of running into your own body. From an OOC standpoint, you CAN always join as another character, so the punishment isn't that you can't play. But if you were working on something as Character A and did something stupid that got you killed, you'll have to try working on that the next round, because now you're Character B, or a pAI, or a mouse, or a myriad of other things ghosts can become. At the end of the day, cloning serves no benefit to a story that is based on high expectations of RP.

[MO_oNyMan]

The problem of cloning is not the post-cloning syndrome. It's the lack of weight behind the death itself which is instated by allowing anyone to be brought back at any time.

Moreover i think that making reviving extremely time/resource-consuming will not benefit the players as they will be stuck as a ghost...

 

Those are conflicting thoughts in my opinion. For something to have weight to it, it NEEDS to have a chance of failure, a long delay, a punishment for dying as it were. That IS the weight. If you feel like you can be brought back always at any time, there's no weight to death, so knowing that you will have to wait a while for a CHANCE to be brought back... THAT makes death feel more heavy. Frankly I'm of the camp that this is how it should work:

Defib takes you out of crit for a while. Like, you go critical, defib removes you from critical for 60 seconds, but also does a little bit of burn damage. This allows for a way to keep people conscious without having to use injections/pills, but at the cost of temporarily hurting them. Now should the victim ALSO be receiving treatment, the burn damage will not be a problem to mitigate, and you can save a life. That's more on par with how defibs really work.

Once a person dies, that (to me) should be it. You died? Guess you can come back as a different character for the round, but that guy is DEAD. The Odin (which admittedly lore wise has MUCH more sophisticated equipment, will revive you. Victims of death will be cremated on station to avoid 'clone syndrome', and the 'dna genome' that the Odin has will be used to form the clone. That way you never run the risk of running into your own body. From an OOC standpoint, you CAN always join as another character, so the punishment isn't that you can't play. But if you were working on something as Character A and did something stupid that got you killed, you'll have to try working on that the next round, because now you're Character B, or a pAI, or a mouse, or a myriad of other things ghosts can become. At the end of the day, cloning serves no benefit to a story that is based on high expectations of RP.

 

The weight and consequence in this case is losing the character with the inability to play him this round. I don't think we need to further punish death by making players hang out as a ghost for 15+ minutes hoping for someone to gather enough resources for a revival and possibly failing (if the guy gets stopped/prioritises some other dead dude/the power goes out).

As for defibs and how they work I guess if we wanted to get technical we could treat a certain period after "death" as crit (in brainmed brain is still alive some time after, for example, your heart has stopped, allowing you to be brought back. Getting over a certain brain damage threshold is what stops you from being defibbed back to life)

[Korinra]

The problem of cloning is not the post-cloning syndrome. It's the lack of weight behind the death itself which is instated by allowing anyone to be brought back at any time.

Moreover i think that making reviving extremely time/resource-consuming will not benefit the players as they will be stuck as a ghost...

 

Those are conflicting thoughts in my opinion. For something to have weight to it, it NEEDS to have a chance of failure, a long delay, a punishment for dying as it were. That IS the weight. If you feel like you can be brought back always at any time, there's no weight to death, so knowing that you will have to wait a while for a CHANCE to be brought back... THAT makes death feel more heavy. Frankly I'm of the camp that this is how it should work:

Defib takes you out of crit for a while. Like, you go critical, defib removes you from critical for 60 seconds, but also does a little bit of burn damage. This allows for a way to keep people conscious without having to use injections/pills, but at the cost of temporarily hurting them. Now should the victim ALSO be receiving treatment, the burn damage will not be a problem to mitigate, and you can save a life. That's more on par with how defibs really work.

Once a person dies, that (to me) should be it. You died? Guess you can come back as a different character for the round, but that guy is DEAD. The Odin (which admittedly lore wise has MUCH more sophisticated equipment, will revive you. Victims of death will be cremated on station to avoid 'clone syndrome', and the 'dna genome' that the Odin has will be used to form the clone. That way you never run the risk of running into your own body. From an OOC standpoint, you CAN always join as another character, so the punishment isn't that you can't play. But if you were working on something as Character A and did something stupid that got you killed, you'll have to try working on that the next round, because now you're Character B, or a pAI, or a mouse, or a myriad of other things ghosts can become. At the end of the day, cloning serves no benefit to a story that is based on high expectations of RP.

 

The weight and consequence in this case is losing the character with the inability to play him this round. I don't think we need to further punish death by making players hang out as a ghost for 15+ minutes hoping for someone to gather enough resources for a revival and possibly failing (if the guy gets stopped/prioritises some other dead dude/the power goes out).

As for defibs and how they work I guess if we wanted to get technical we could treat a certain period after "death" as crit (in brainmed brain is still alive some time after, for example, your heart has stopped, allowing you to be brought back. Getting over a certain brain damage threshold is what stops you from being defibbed back to life)

 

I disagree with that though. I have 7 characters. With what you are suggesting, I could spend over an hour doing stupid stuff in rapid succession and getting killed, only to move on to the next character. And with a limit of 30 characters? There should be a defining punishment. Maybe if there were a limit of how many characters you COULD play each round, but you get say, 3. Three characters die, then you're done for the round. If a character dies, that CHARACTER is done for the round. Think before you act, and you'll never die. Hell I have died once in like... the last month of playing. I've been injured a few times, but I also don't arm up and fight antags, I run away like a normal person would in these weird scenarios.

[MO_oNyMan]

Those are conflicting thoughts in my opinion. For something to have weight to it, it NEEDS to have a chance of failure, a long delay, a punishment for dying as it were. That IS the weight. If you feel like you can be brought back always at any time, there's no weight to death, so knowing that you will have to wait a while for a CHANCE to be brought back... THAT makes death feel more heavy. Frankly I'm of the camp that this is how it should work:

Defib takes you out of crit for a while. Like, you go critical, defib removes you from critical for 60 seconds, but also does a little bit of burn damage. This allows for a way to keep people conscious without having to use injections/pills, but at the cost of temporarily hurting them. Now should the victim ALSO be receiving treatment, the burn damage will not be a problem to mitigate, and you can save a life. That's more on par with how defibs really work.

Once a person dies, that (to me) should be it. You died? Guess you can come back as a different character for the round, but that guy is DEAD. The Odin (which admittedly lore wise has MUCH more sophisticated equipment, will revive you. Victims of death will be cremated on station to avoid 'clone syndrome', and the 'dna genome' that the Odin has will be used to form the clone. That way you never run the risk of running into your own body. From an OOC standpoint, you CAN always join as another character, so the punishment isn't that you can't play. But if you were working on something as Character A and did something stupid that got you killed, you'll have to try working on that the next round, because now you're Character B, or a pAI, or a mouse, or a myriad of other things ghosts can become. At the end of the day, cloning serves no benefit to a story that is based on high expectations of RP.

 

The weight and consequence in this case is losing the character with the inability to play him this round. I don't think we need to further punish death by making players hang out as a ghost for 15+ minutes hoping for someone to gather enough resources for a revival and possibly failing (if the guy gets stopped/prioritises some other dead dude/the power goes out).

As for defibs and how they work I guess if we wanted to get technical we could treat a certain period after "death" as crit (in brainmed brain is still alive some time after, for example, your heart has stopped, allowing you to be brought back. Getting over a certain brain damage threshold is what stops you from being defibbed back to life)

 

I disagree with that though. I have 7 characters. With what you are suggesting, I could spend over an hour doing stupid stuff in rapid succession and getting killed, only to move on to the next character. And with a limit of 30 characters? There should be a defining punishment. Maybe if there were a limit of how many characters you COULD play each round, but you get say, 3. Three characters die, then you're done for the round. If a character dies, that CHARACTER is done for the round. Think before you act, and you'll never die. Hell I have died once in like... the last month of playing. I've been injured a few times, but I also don't arm up and fight antags, I run away like a normal person would in these weird scenarios.

 

With a short time of revival you can switch to the other character knowing for sure you're not getting resurrected. With a long one you can spend a stupid amount of time waiting for revival which may or may not ever happen. There's a 20 minute cooldown on respawn currently so on a generic round you can skip through about 6 character trying to die as fast as you can and hanging out in the lobby the entire time. That and the fact that you don't invest into or care about your characters enough to make an effort to preserve them is a sufficient enough punishment

[Korinra]

What I don't understand is you disagreeing with me and arguing with me while ultimately agreeing with me that death should be final with no chance of the body being brought back. If you can please explain why you're arguing with me beyond that I'd be super happy. Beyond that it's all opinion, and yours and mine are different. Stop trying to argue like an opinion can be right or wrong.

[MO_oNyMan]

the point of death needing to be final is where we agreed from the beginning. The difference manifesting in an argument originated from the misconception about that first point where you seem to have thought that me saying "i don't like time and resource consuming revival" means that i support non-time/resource consuming revival which is not really what i meant. What i was trying to say is that the main obstacle on "revival" should be whether you can keep someone alive not whether you can collect enough stuff to bring a guy back whenever. That whole discussionf might also have to do with the fact that i'm currently dying and need to get some sleep since i can't fully understand what i'm trying to say myself

[Sebbe]

Just letting you know that the point of this was to find a nice balance on how defibs/whatever else you suggested I would project function and pros/cons. Making death the final version is sorta the opposite of this thread...

[Korinra]

Sorry Sebbe, but yeah anything that brings someone back from being fully dead I'll disagree with. So if it's a hard question of, "Should defibs be implemented to reanimate recently dead?", then -1 from me.

[Sebbe]

Alright, as the second idea was more popular and I enjoyed it more I will go with that.

So current plans for this is:

Expensive, needs different chemicals that do organs, eyes, brain and such.

Requires synthflesh or what it's called.

Takes a long time, upwards of ten minutes depending on the damage, or I will make it so a damage threshold needs to be met.

Failure chance to create Eyes, limbs, maybe something else non-essential.

As for lore I'm thinking something along the lines of:

The glass chamber filled with (chemicals and other parts) takes the deceased crew-member and melts them down to a genetic level, using the DNA to recreate the creature as it was. This process is described as "Painful beyond comprehension" and is not recommended for dead or alive crew. This experimental technology is highly unstable and prone to failure with parts that don't meet a sufficient standard. (Upgrading machine lowers/removes chance of failure and speeds it up a bit.)

Thoughts?

[ShameOnTurtles]

Let me start off by saying I love defibrillators in this game. One of my first medical experiences was reviving someone with a defibrillator and healing them back to full health- something that was extremely rewarding and I still think back on fondly.

With that said, I don't think I support it's implementation in its current suggested state. This is what I'm going off of:

So current plans for this is:

Expensive, needs different chemicals that do organs, eyes, brain and such.

Requires synthflesh or what it's called.

Takes a long time, upwards of ten minutes depending on the damage, or I will make it so a damage threshold needs to be met.

Failure chance to create Eyes, limbs, maybe something else non-essential.

The glass chamber filled with (chemicals and other parts) takes the deceased crew-member and melts them down to a genetic level, using the DNA to recreate the creature as it was. This process is described as "Painful beyond comprehension" and is not recommended for dead or alive crew. This experimental technology is highly unstable and prone to failure with parts that don't meet a sufficient standard. (Upgrading machine lowers/removes chance of failure and speeds it up a bit.)

 

I want to raise a question here. The focus from the initial OP mainly seems to be restricting the capability of the defibrillator, which I am fine with. It's implementation on other servers is extremely strong. However, the above quoted post really just makes me question why defibrillators would ever be used over cloning? If implemented, they should still be viable, just not dominant.

On that note, I don't know if it was intended as this but this suggestion seems to be wandering towards "Let's brainstorm replacements for cloning". I don't think the defibrillator should/should not be added purely on the status of cloning. Save that for a separate thread.

The lore reasoning for this also seems a bit shaky, but that's an easily corrected issue. If the technology is experimental, not certified for use by medical professionals, and prone to failure, why would it be standard medical equipment on our station? An option here is to change the lore description to make it more of an experimental prototype and gate it behind R&D levels, which I would also be in support of.

I will say I do really like Zundy's idea.