Eliot Clef

You may wish to reconsider your general social nastiness if you want this appeal to gain any kind of traction. Aurora isn't Hippie Station. It's pretty restrictive here. Hippie is basically a game of Talisman or Armello, we're more like a game of Dungeons and Dragons. I know it's a jarring change, but you haven't even really displayed good faith so far.

This is a cool idea, and I have nothing much to add to the concept.

Hi. I was watching this part of the round, and while the simplest explanation is in fact that Lemon unbolted those doors, the Departures Lounge and Shuttle airlocks are pretty sketchy and I've seen them do things like this before if they've been interacted with prior to the shuttle call. (People moving in and out of the station via escape airlocks.) I don't see it often, and it is a result of somebody pushing some buttons at some point, but I don't think it's impossible that Lemon is telling the truth either.

There is, in my experience, an unspoken and usually followed SOP of when to engage lethally and actually deliberately try to kill somebody. I think it's pretty OK. 1) Simplest and most straightforward, is the antag engaging with lethal methods? Long ranged lethals especially. If you're shooting at one another, no point holding back, it's OK to fight back lethally. 2) A little more complex: Is the antag of a type that possesses powers making it unable to be effectively contained, and has used this to avoid containment while hurting people or otherwise causing problems that would necessitate subduing them non-lethally if you could? Vampires, Wizards, and Changelings oh my. If you're one of these antag types, take the abilities that make it impossible to pin you down, and then use them, you're probably going to be killed out of necessity. Wizards can get out of being killed for this if they're not being too violent. 3) Do you only have a lethal means of subduing somebody? Most people won't object to a Detective unloading a revolver into somebody coming at them, if it's the only thing they've got to viably defend themselves. Occasionally this isn't followed. Sometimes somebody will flip their shit and beat an antag to death for personal reasons. For instance, if the antag killed their character's friends/relatives/whatever. I'm honestly usually OK with murderous antags getting their comeuppance in a not-strictly-by-the-book way, but occasionally you'll get really dumb lynch mobs that I think shouldn't happen. (I've had this happen with more-or-less contained antags actually, and it's really obnoxious to deal with.)

Point of clarification: If I'm not vastly mis-remembering, that Officer actually specifically said they didn't have a problem with Rin being arrested, only with Rin being thrown into solitary from the word go.

Hello. I was watching this round. I have some of the logs (uncleaned) of where some of this was going down. You were kind of, uh, rambling on about memes and generally being kind of dumb for an HRP server. I didn't have radios active, but the only other round I've seen you active in (last night) you spent your very short time on the station before crew transfer swearing on the radio and generally being socially hostile to damn near everyone. Your character engaged in textbook cases of Misuse of Comms then, and if your behavior in say was any indication, it's not hard for me to imagine you doing it again here. Yes, it's a fairly broad rule. No, claiming security is just using it to abuse you doesn't really hold water in my book, your character acts like a huge flaming jackass. Here is, uncleaned, my log of this round (or at least what I actually saw). You can search for John Bloomenfeld to see this guy's specific behavior. This contains a whole lot of unrelated garbage as well, including my toggles on radio/speech and dead chat discussion on robustness/people being terrible.

You did absolutely nothing wrong. You had your back to the cell the entire time, I assumed you were deliberately giving them some privacy.

I don't believe they had any prior contact long enough for thralling, though I could be wrong. I know that not a single person entered the Soilitary cell other than me once she was placed inside, and there was no time during her arrest to do so. I didn't witness her thralling him, but I assume that she must have since he behaved like a thrall and defended her mindlessly even when there was incontrovertible evidence that she was guilty of Sexual Assault. She'd even tried the same request on the Warden, who reported it to others when the sexual assault charges came up. I can verify that Johnson never left the area surrounding solitary for very long. After you ordered everyone to disperse from the solitary cluster, I went to the security checkpoint at arrivals and watched solitary on the cameras. People eventually did disperse, except for Johnson and the Warden. Johnson went into the cell with Rin several times for brief periods, which the Warden was cooperative with, but I don't know what actually happened there since I wasn't physically present to hear. There was, however, enough time for him to be thralled if he wasn't already before he went in there, and also enough time for Rin to bite him if the Warden wasn't watching closely.

Aren't Vox supposed to not do this? Also, are you sure they didn't filch your radio?

This. Also, I'm sure they're separate bits of code, but make sure that intercoms and station bounced radios can still be operated while their microphone is on by people under these restrictions. They're area-based when used, not manually operated, so there's no reason they wouldn't pick up somebody who was restrained.

Suggestion #1: There's an area that used to be an autopsy room beneath the crime lab. Now it just has a table with some extra gear on it, and a machine frame that used to be an operating table. Expand the space two tiles into maintenance (so that library maintenance is uniformly two tiles wide), add an extra door into security proper, and put some evidence lockers with empty cardboard boxes in them in there. Maybe a filing cabinet as well, somewhere in the CSI lab. Shit gets messy. Suggestion #2: Either in the current Evidence Locker or Prisoner Items, put a wardrobe with a small number of grey jumpsuits and a few standard headsets. Maybe put some standard headsets in the prisoner lockers and cell lockers. This is so, when somebody is pending demotion, Security doesn't have to march to the other end of the station to get basic radios or replace their uniforms.

Dude, fuck off. It's my first thread, cut me some slack. I like how this immediately became a thing.

I would disagree it wasn't justified, given these: Excessive Force in Detainment: Repeatedly batoning a prisoner after they've been handcuffed... Severe Use of Excessive Force: To put a victim in a near-death state in defence of yourself or others, or seriously injuring a suspect while attempting to detain them. At minimum, Keelin was in violation of at least one of these, given she was put into crit and stopped breathing as a result of his actions. IC'ly Price insisted on Manslaughter, given that Keelin actually killed her when she was in handcuffs. You're welcome to this opinion, but bear in mind that Security standard behavior when an antagonist displays abilities and conduct like Rin Fukuimoto did is pretty much exactly what happened. Teleporting, mass-stunning, weapon-stealing-and-unloading-into-some-guy's-face antags get beaten to death because there's nothing Security can actually do to pin them down for very long, and they're a clear danger to the people around them. Ranniyah filled Rin full of bullets because Ranniyah was trying to kill her. I approached Rin with baton out with the express intent of killing her after watching her empty an energy pistol into Keelin's head, and backed off only because I decided it was already handled and I was in the way. So far, Admin (Garnascus) opinion is that nothing inappropriate happened in the combat engagement, and the same was true (as far as I could tell) of your IC leadership and peers in Security. I'm not saying your opinion is necessarily unreasonable on its face (frankly beating Rin to death while she was down with five bullets in her is a pretty cold thing to do for anybody but Keelin, who was literally shot until his face melted and who therefore had a pretty reasonable emotional excuse to just smash her head in), but I am saying that if you act on it in the future you're probably going to end up in situations similar to this one where you get stunned down by your co-workers and shoved out of the department.

To be perfectly clear: I contacted the Captain during the Keelin's arrest and it had nothing to do with Rin dying. Rin died because she presented a lethal threat and had demonstrated herself to be able to escape and incapacitate large numbers of people, with some very clear murderous intent, on top of the sexual predation she had already acted on. Your attempted arrest on this basis was not justified, and at least two others present at Rin's arrest were prepared to kill her. If you think we're wrong that's ok, but the Captain didn't agree and neither did a lot of Security surrounding you. Security was divided along several lines. Kyle Johnson was a thrall of Rin Fukuimoto, and they were both Officers. So there's a bit of Security. There was a Tajaran Officer whose name I don't remember, who started dissent when Rin was arrested and placed in isolation. Johnson was a thrall so he joined in the dissent immediately. Marc Price, I don't remember if he was being a problem at this point in time, but there were some internal problems related to him that I think mostly had to do with this manslaughter business. We also had an IAA weighing in pretty regularly for a while. Stefanis, or something like that? I don't remember that name clearly either. Joseff Yahtzee was the Warden, and he was cooperative at pretty much all times with everyone. Officer Tajaran-Whose-Name-I-Forget was pretty much an asshole about Rin being locked up (in solitary), screeching about abuse of power from the word go and generally starting a bunch of social strife. The IAA got in on asking about this and as a result of reports to him/her (?) there was more social strife that carried on over the radio between Officer Tajaran, IAA, Johnson, Keelin... Shas'kala Sakaei was our CSI person, and Ranniyah was our Detective. Sakaei got into a dispute with Officer Tajaran over comms for a good long while, and they went back and forth about dueling for a little while I think. The actual pursuit of Rin was a chaotic shitfest because of the close quarters. When I arrived at the locker room where Rin was finally pinned down (as previously mentioned it was in the area with the washing machine and dryer, so there was only room for a couple of people), Rin had Keelin's laser pistol and people were clustered in that area really tightly. I decided they had it taken care of when I tried to move in and just got in the way, and left. (You can see the point where I leave where you can no longer see the AI Private radio, I was coordinating with the AI on and off during this mess.) I was there long enough to witness the shooting of Keelin by Rin and of Rin by Ranniyah, but I was gone by the time they were calling for medbay. In summary, yeah. It was a mess. 3/4ths of Security was fighting with Security. Later on the Captain ordered Keelin arrested for contributing to the constant shit-stirring churn. Marc Price was also slated for demotion, I think, but we got a crew transfer so it didn't matter much.

This is a fair criticism, but isolating a sexual offender isn't really all that unreasonable to me either. (Except, I think, that she was thrown in without a PDA or a radio.) It is, however, true that Rin was never given a tracking implant as dictated by her offense.

I'm on the fence about this one, but I'm not sure you really want a Hold-Until-Transfer sexual offender to be out where you might have to put other prisoners. This is some serious shit. At any rate, the Sexual Assault thing was pretty much confirmed with the victim, so there's no question that Rin should've been locked down pretty hard. Solitary may be iffy, but probably not completely out of the question. You're missing some details that make this a lot more acceptable. Rin was evaporating/teleporting around even while in cuffs. Her getting ahold of Keelin's equipment was actually AFTER she was cornered and caught (and, I think, cuffed) at least once, so we knew for a reasonable fact that containment was hard-to-impossible, she had lethal intent, and unloaded a laser pistol into a man who was already on the ground. At that point Rin had pretty much already demonstrated escape and retaliation capacity even from a standstill of being objectively secure, and even I was ready to execute to prevent further incident. ... But yeah, Keelin was kind of a shit in a lot of other ways that could get him in trouble as an HoS. The department was pretty factionalized and hostile internally all-around, and Keelin was contributing to it pretty heavily.

Just played a round with this guy as Warden. Level-headed, all-around reasonable. +1 from me.

Hey there. You haven't properly closed your bold sections, or filled out the application in general. For an example of what's generally looked for, have a look at this approved Tajaran application: http://aurorastation.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=29&t=4431 The first character names field, for instance, is for characters you've already been playing so far. It's to let people know who you are, and what to expect out of you. You've put the possible whitelist character in that field instead.

Irrational, from... which perspective, though? Characters ICly don't know about roundtypes, and OOCly, voting for secret only to find out the surprise was nothing at all is most often simply a disappointment. The reasoning behind this proposed change is that not knowing what might happen will decrease instances of metagaming. Under the current suggestion, there is no scenario in which a Secret vote does not result in hostile entities (antagonists) on the station, and therefore while metagaming may become less clearly defined as opposed to being aimed towards a specific known adversary (creating EMP grenades to deal with when the Malf AI goes loud) there is no reason for it to decline completely. People will know for a fact that there will be antags, and they will continue to act on that knowledge. If there is a possibility that, "Oh boy, what's going to happen this round?" can be answered with, "Nothing.", then metagaming is less internally justifiable to the actors who are doing the metagaming (the players). It offers doubt. Having said that, I don't think making us Secret or Extended is actually a good solution. I don't think it'll stop metagaming at all. My suggestion is a mediocre hedge within a mediocre hedge, partially intended to preserve Extended as a game mode that actually occurs if this suggestion is taken seriously, partially to introduce doubt.

Sure, okay. Malf AI is a discussion for another time. I think that if we were to do this, Extended would need to be a part of the potential mix. I think this for two reasons: Firstly, it introduces the additional possibility that there will be no antagonists at all, making it much more irrational to be paranoid/metagame an assumption of hostility from antagonists. Secondly, it prevents Extended from being shuffled out of existence entirely, which I think is entirely possible under this voting scheme. That said, this suggestion becoming a reality strikes me as a distant possibility that I hope doesn't get traction, and my suggestion above is merely how I think it should be if it absolutely must happen. On the whole, my opinion remains the same as in my first post in this thread.

I can give you a pretty simple explanation for why IPCs are so popular: They're easy to dive right into, and extremely flexible. It's true that they also have some very powerful tricks/benefits, and also true that they're pretty vulnerable in other ways. The main thing though, I think, is that it's very easy to get into Synthetic play by starting with AI/Cyborg, which requires no whitelist. Somebody who grows interested enough in synthetics from AI/Borgs will often then move on into developing their character further by obtaining a whitelist and giving them a body. It's been a while since I've seen a hell of a lot of IPCs running around in all departments. There's usually a handful, but not a lot. As for the overall thrust of the topic, ehn. I can't do anything here but harshly disagree with all points JKJudgeX has made. If we're going to have nonhumans and whitelists (which we clearly are), we shouldn't be installing hard or soft caps (particularly by categorically rejecting applications) to achieve arbitrary too-many-nonhuman quotas.

Alright. So here's the thing. Yes, you're promoting (effectively) axing a round type. You don't want Malf AI to be in the rotation, it's one of the things you mentioned in your post. Beyond that, your concept involves introducing a binary (or close) vote: Antags, or no antags. This reduces the possibility of the second option being selected at all, something that is (relatively) irregular unless it's very late at night to begin with. Introducing a Secret scramble that includes all possible roundtypes also isn't likely to eliminate meta, because you're still informing people what to expect (especially if Extended is removed from the scramble). People will know to expect antags of some kind, even if they won't know exactly what to expect. Paranoia will remain in force. Basically, this idea isn't going to solve your problem and would drastically lower the possibility of a minority of game modes getting selected. So yes, my call is: No thanks, it's fine as-is.

Whole-heartedly disagree. Great reasoning though. There's really not much for me to argue about here. It's another thread focused on axing some round types that somebody (you) has a beef against insofar as it is possible to do so, along with altering the voting norm. I don't really care for the regularity with which nuclear gets voted, but that doesn't mean its ability to turn up randomly should be reduced, or that it should be effectively axed. For that matter, I don't think Secret or Extended is really desirable. In summary: I disagree and don't care for your personal issues with certain game modes. There's barely anything for me to say.

No, thanks. It's fine as-is.

If it has a brain, or something that works exactly like one, it should be able to be enthralled. Being enthralled is just really, really, really liking someone and not exactly knowing why or being able to control it... it's a magical psychological domination trick. It can and does give the vampire the ability to essentially dictate laws, that must be followed, just like the A.I. can with borgs. IPCs already have 9000 advantages and there are a lot of players who dislike them because of that. I really don't think suddenly deciding that they are immune to yet another thing is a good idea. That is in fact what I said. I defended borgs and AIs not being subject to enthrallment, not IPCs.