Sound Scopes / Doomberg. 23-01-2015 20:00ish-22:30ish UTC+1

[Bobsenjr]

BYOND Key: Bobsenjr (Raynack also involved)

Staff BYOND Key: Sound Scopes / Doomberg

Reason for complaint: Asked to stop role play for what I perceived as a bad reason

Evidence/logs/etc: http://imgur.com/a/c3jKS I apologize for the terrible pictures, but the conversation started with Sound Scopes and ended with Doomberg

Additional remarks:

So me and my friend were roleplaying two "revolutionaires" in a non-rev round. The scale of our revolution was to draw with crayons all over the station. Some drawings were crude others had whatever meaning we could scramble together. I admit it wasn't exactly the most breathtaking display of modernist art, but we had fun and we were trying to stirr up some roleplay with the station and security. It should be noted that we had played about 20 minutes of a previous round where we had joined just at the end. During that round we also drew on the floors. The round in question however was the first time we had really gotten into it. So we started our round by meeting in character and planning our deeds. We then took the crayons from the art room and started mucking about writing things that seemed "revolutionary" and "provoking" without exactly being explicit or offensive. We were arrested the first time by a brilliant security maneuver trapping us in the main tool storage. Here I thought we might inspire some fun roleplay, but the moment we were hauled in no one talked to us. We attempted to start a conversation with the security officers, but they barely spoke with us and then hauled us to our cell.

We then got out after 4 minutes and retrieved some stashed crayons and continued on our revolutionary way. I declared over the radio that I would make a art piece outside the command center in response to Nanotrasens capitalist ways. This instantly caused a security officer to show up and the janitor to swat me with her mop. I was then hauled off to prison again (My friend was also beaten with stun batons and tazed when he was arrested separately from the art piece at the bridge). This time aswell there was no roleplay involved beyond the bare mechanical movements of dragging us to the evidence room, looking through our stuff, and putting us in our cell. We get released again and decide that we will have to do something else. However before we can really get around to doing anything we are approached by admins (both of us) and told to stop drawing everywhere because we are "self antagonizing". This is when the conversations from the logs start. I apologize again for them being very unsorted, but the conversation started with Sound Scopes and ended with Doomberg.

I completely disagree with the way that we were stopped. As I also state in the logs, I find it defeating that the moment security doesn't feel like "dealing" with minor criminals they go to the admins straight away. We were not griefing, we were not assaulting people or starting fights, we were trying to roleplay revolutionaries that wanted to spread a message. When it comes to "self-antagonizing" and causing the sec team grief, I have to completely disagree. I had done this style of roleplay a few days earlier with the same character and had a great time with the security team. I'm afraid I remember none of their names specifically, but instead of treating it like a boring chore they actually interacted with me. And yes, there was long jail sentences but the communication I had with the head of security those rounds was really entertaining, and I left having really enjoyed my time (And hoping he had aswell).

In contrast to that, these rounds were nothing like that. Security members didn't speak to us as they searched us. At one point the warden just came in the door and searched my pockets while I was jailed to the chair. No questions, no saying hello.

The way the admins handled this issue was very unsatisfying. Instead of looking into the issue, they instantly sided with the "veteran security players" that clearly found our antics not suitable to their dreary RP. A specific line I can quote is the way that Doomberg said that "In any case, if you believe drawing on the floor with crayon and doing your damnedest to pester security into giving you attention is going to generate some sort of deep RP, i'm afraid you're probably in the wrong place" was very patronizing. I am trying my damnedest not to "pester" security, but to generate some roleplay that is not centered around some doom wizard murdering everyone, or everyone just being depressed at the bar. Sure, it can be a pain in the ass to deal with self-made antags but as security you should be able to handle two dudes with crayons (That never resisted arrest by the way) instead of calling the admins in to deal with it.

All in all, it was a very defeating situation. It took the fun out of a long and fun roleplay situation by forcing an end to it because security didn't feel like doing their jobs. As for the admins I feel they took the side of "reports" without actually looking at the facts and just shutting it off because the regulars were mildly annoyed.

Thanks for reading this wall of text, and I will stand by whatever decision is made. I love the server and (so far) I have loved the staff, but this has been real bummer of an experience.

[Frances]

I'm gonna try to explain a bit what I understand happened.

These acts in themselves aren't a problem. And while some of the most dedicated "purists" of our community agree that they shouldn't happen, I actually find that these situations can be very enjoyable, if not downright hilarious. Silly stuff is good every once in a while, and it is one of the reasons why we're here to roleplay. (I remember we had a gang of 1950s style greasers on the station once. That was great.)

The problem is that these acts become stale once they overstay their welcome. Gimmicky characters or situations are cool because you don't have to deal with them constantly. You see them once, have a laugh, maybe stick them in the brig if you're security, and move on. But the moment you have to arrest Rick and Bob for vandalizing the station every round, with absolutely no repercussions from HR, it starts to get more annoying than funny.

I believe the main issue staff had in this instance was that this was consistent behavior, that happened round after round. So the problem is not the act. It is its frequency.

[Bobsenjr]

I can totally understand that point of view, but the fact was that we had barely had a welcome, so to speak. In the first round (The one we participated in for 20 minutes or so) the entire station had been blown to bits, and everyone was pretty dead-set on evacing. So we felt that that wasn't a "real round" as there was no real response and our attempts at starting roleplay hadn't fostered anything. So the one round were we got pulled aside was in fact the first round we had interacted with security at all. If this had been the 3rd or 4th round in a row I could understand it becoming tired, but security barely even tried to roleplay with us that round before the admins stepped in.

[Dea Tacita]

I essentially agree with what Frances said. But the main thing the other staff sees wrong here is that there's no IC reason this would happen, your character after doing this once or twice, would be fired. No doubt about it, and while it might create some good RP and thus be excusable occasionally. Doing this round-after-round is monotonous and generally loses the purpose of entertainment and begins to stretch the realm of belief.

Simply put, while I'm okay with this happening occasionally. Why would your character even exist after a couple rounds of this? He'd be fired and removed from the station, and as I've seen it. This is generally ALL you do with this character, which really...makes no sense.

[Bobsenjr]

Also a legit point, but I feel like the rules become a bit blurred on this subject. I think we could both agree that a character such a mine would be fired eventually, but as I was told the round system is semi-continous. That means that if fx, your character committed a murder in round 1 he wouldn't be hauled off to the perma-brig on round 2. Does this then not carry over to smaller antag actions? I never planned on using Seymour Robberou (Character in question) every round, but I have certainly had fun with him for a few rounds. Not to mention that the friend that played with me was playing along for the very first time, so his character didn't really fit the role of repeat offender.

Again the words "Round after round" are used, and I don't feel that is justified. Two rounds on a Saturday and two rounds on a Wednesday hardly add up to someone doing this for days on end. At what point is it too much? As I have stated, that was the first and only round of that evening where security interacted with us. Out of the two, this was the first time where security had the displeasure of actually roleplaying with us (And not even at that).

[Guest Menown]

As a member of security in this round, and the previous round. When we're in Code Blue/Red, and you're fucking around vandalising shit, when we've got armed people assaulting members of the crew, and bombs going off. You being in a cell is going to take back burner. The issue is, round after round, of you doing this, would ICly get you fired. This isn't your first, second, or third time, doing this vandalism thing. I've had multiple occasions with you, not with your friend, but just you, writing all over the station with crayons. It was lels the first time, but it gets old, because instead of dealing with an actual issue, we get you spouting off nonsense on the radio.

Contrary to most popular belief, while there are some officers/security members that love to take people in, a lot of us do it just to stop people from fucking about. It helps bring the load off the admin/mod team to deal with chucklefucks, and it keeps the game in a meaningful order at times. We want to RP. A lot of us want to talk to people ICly, but if we're dealing with the same people three or four times a round for the same thing, we're likely on the verge of throwing you in perma forever.

[Bobsenjr]

That's a fair enough point, but let me respond with what I saw during that round. First of all, If we are specificly talking about the round wherein I was jailed, the impression that I had from the code blue/red situation was that the security team was acting tyranical. Now I fully understand that the situation was probably completely different, but seen from the outside no one was told why we went to code blue/red. Adding to that a lot of people were saying over the radio that sec was doing it to forgo paper work etc. So I genuinely thought 'this might be a rev round'. Again, I hear this "round after round" being used, when it was in fact 2 rounds. And yes, there for sure have been multiple occasions with me, as I have played the character maybe 4-5 times in total with varying degrees of success, but it hasn't been on the same day and it has been in a row.

Also I just don't know what to say when you tell me that security is being used as an alternate to admins, because if I wasn't trying to RP with you guys then I don't know what. I even openly invited a RP response when I said I would do a "Art piece" in front of the bridge. If you don't feel like interacting with the people that you are arresting, then that sounds like a terrible reason to play security, because I played an antag so I could interact with security in a fun way that didn't require me to murder someone or run around pushing sec officers. It just really makes it sound like a sad case when you say that "if we're dealing with the same people three or four times a round for the same thing, we're likely on the verge of throwing you in perma forever" doesn't lead to roleplay. I can understand if its just some dude pushing people or shouting curse words over the radio, but I was -actively- trying to stirr up some alternate roleplay and all I got was tired staff helpers that couldn't give a shit about anyone.

I've had this RP work out splendidly with security before when it was inhabited by people that weren't just tired of playing security. People that were willing to use the situations as a way to roleplay or talk with me or interact with me. But I do see your point and i'll have to adjust to that point of view.

Edited January 24, 2015 by Guest

[Doomberg]

Alright. I'm not one for long-winded messages, so I'll just give you some bullet points, more or less.

Let me start by saying that I believe - no offense meant - what you are doing with this character may not be particularly unique or entertaining to other players, despite what you may think. Perhaps it might entertain /you/, but most of our security players have experienced characters like yours a thousand times over and are simply sick and tired of dealing with the same sort of rebellious minor crime sprees that crop up during emergency situations. I can guarantee you that when a security team has a bomb threat, several situations to keep track of and an internal affairs agent shooting lasers out of their eyes, the last thing they want to hear about is you drawing all over the station's floors as a non-antag. At this point, you are not creating roleplay, you are generating real stress for real people.

With that aside, let's discuss the IC aspect of this. What exactly are your character's IC reasons for behaving like this? Do they want to be fired? Does it go any further than "I hate the system"? Because the way I currently see it, you're creating what is more or less a gimmick character with the sole purpose of giving security work to do. This may be fine in reasonable amounts on an extended round when security has nothing to do but sit in the bar and complain, as you've said, but I personally witnessed this happening during a relatively stressful vampire round.

Regardless, I appreciate the fact that you're remaining polite and actually going through proper channels to see this resolved.

[Serveris]

Hi. I was the head of security, Syrus Seto, during the round that set this off. Let me start with saying that as a security player, I do relish the opportunities to play these little cat and mouse games with people, if there's nothing going on.

Here's the kicker. Everytime I've seen you do this, there was always something going on. The station was on elevated alert. People were getting killed.

At this point, the cute self-antagging needs to stop. Security no longer has time to cater you your, quite frankly, annoying antics. We were wholly occupied with dealing with the real antags of these rounds, on top of dealing with your pointless, repetitive antics.

It was cute, even entertaining, the first two times you got detained. It got old fast, however, as we had far more pressing issues (a vampire murdering people in the dorms, and later causing considerable damage to the brig itself,) to handle.

The way I see it, you needlessly self-antagged, getting arrested around half a dozen times for seemingly no regard for consequences aside from staring at a wall for five minutes. Maybe you felt this is what enabled you to keep doing it.

My point being, once things got heated, the other command staff, and a significant amount of regular crew got fed up with your shenanigans, and pressured us to take action.

I apologize for not making this a better roleplay experience for you, but as stated, you were of secondary concern to the bodies that were dropping elsewhere. When I realized you intended to make this a continuous problem throughout the round, I, as well as other players having to cope with the backlash of your crime spree, pleaded with my fellow staffmembers to allow us to take advanced action against you, so that the station's resources could focus on the larger problems at hand. I feel they took the more generous rite route in simply speaking with you, and not actually issuing a ban, or any form of punishment.

Doomberg and Sound Scopes were just doing their jobs as admins. If you really want to take someone's head on a stick, then feel free to file a complaint against myself. These two were simply catering to the community requesting they take action against you.

[Bobsenjr]

@doomberg

You know i'll admit that its not the most amazing character. For sure its a gimmick character if anything, but I wouldn't play that character if I didn't feel like others were having fun. What I saw earlier in the week was security having fun with me playing this character so I was under the impression that maybe I could do the same this one. I might've backed off had I known that there was a bomb threat (Or whatever was going on that round) but it was never communicated. At no point was I told about laser shooting IA's or anything of the sort, infact as I wrote in one of the other responses, the way radio chatter was going on it seemed like it might've been a rev round as people were accusing security of raising the alert so that they could arrest people without the proper paperwork aswell as torture.

I can see why that would add grief and I have experienced the same thing as a sec officer, but that doesn't mean that I would report the person. Although it can be stressful as a security officer to have emergency situations and then deal with minor antags, you can't exactly blame others for trying to roleplay during these situations aswell, even if it isn't ideal especially for you (you as in security)

If the round had simply ended with security taking away the crayons or locking me up for a longer period then thats the way it works out. Sure it'd be boring for me, but I can't really protest security being security. But the fact that admins were pulled in to stop roleplay because it was causing stressful situations for the security team is just not alright in my opinion, which is why I submitted this complaint.

The crux of "Do they want to be fired" comes back to the same thing we talked about on ingame. That is whether or not semi-continuous rounds include small antag actions. If murders and hardcore antags are allowed to show up next shift as doctors or engineers without being arrested, then why isn't a small time antag allowed to do the same?

[Bobsenjr]

@Severis (You submitted just as I was submitting, so sorry for the weird response layout)

I respect your position, but I disagree with almost all of your points. I can understand that someone self-antaging can be a real bother in the middle of a hectic situation, but my response to this would be that you can't expect everyone to stop roleplaying and do nothing whenever security is having a hard time. Furthermore, as I have stated before, I was not aware that all of these things were happening, mostly because there was zero communication from the command in the game. Also, as I have stated before I was under the impression that this could be a rev round, as people were accusing you of torturing and raising the alert so you could arrest more freely (That was the radio chatter anyways).

And no, I don't feel like pointing a complaint against you in this instance, because I feel the responsibility lies with the admins to understand what is going on during this. The fact that security feels that certain "shenanigans" are so hazardous to their stress levels that a ban or a kick is necessary is frankly a terrible reaction. If you felt overwhelmed during the round you could've jailed me for longer, that is to respond to an IC action with another IC action instead of making it an admin problem. The fact that the admins then felt that this problem could not be solved ingame but had to be stopped by a otherworldly presence shows faults in the way roleplay was structured during this round.

I'm sorry you felt that my "antics" were not that entertaining, I genuinely try to cause fun roleplay. All in all, I would've maybe acted differently if I had known the extent of the circumstances, but the way the actual situation played out (being approached by admins for roleplaying a specific way) is just not conductive to a fun and entertaining RP server. That is why I made a complaint.

[Doomberg]

My previous examples of situations security might be dealing with were mostly hyperbole, but yes, we were in the middle of dealing with murders at the time.

What the "reporting" players initially ahelped was a request for permission to permabrig you so you'd stop giving them additional headaches at the time. We decided that instead of having them remove you from the round outright and let you rot in permanent holding, we'd have a chat, which is what brought us here.

The problem isn't you causing trouble for security, it's you reportedly making a habit of this at the worst times possible, knowingly or unknowingly.

Regarding the firing idea, I can't really say there is such a thing as a small time antag. Unless you're picked by server or staff, you're not an antag at all - you're an employee who's there for a paycheck. The way I see it, the whole "antag actions do not carry over to further rounds" clause is mainly there so people aren't discouraged from actually joining up as antags - we would pretty much have zero traitors if being caught caused your character to be permanently fired/killed/otherwise erased. However, people end up using this rule in order to play characters that regularly cause trouble and stretch people's suspension of disbelief by sticking around instead of being terminated following the incidents they cause.

[Bobsenjr]

I have a hard time understanding how security appearntly works on this server. The natural reaction would be to put a repeat offender in for 20 or 30 minutes, not perma-brig them. Why was this not considered? It seems like that its either 2 minutes or perma-brig (or a ban), which doesn't seem like very prudent security work. Also, reportedly making a habit is kind of strongly worded, making it sound like I have been doing this for weeks. Doing this for quarter of a round and another full round hardly justifies banning me when I act annoyingly in a situation I know nothing of.

Right, I understand that small time antags don't actually exist, but the idea was to create a character where I had a good reason to do something that would be semi-breaking the law without having to play a murderer or something else which would just be griefing. Talking about it and hearing the feedback from you guys I probably won't be using the character again, but the way it was handled this round was just not up to par with what I expect from this server.

[Doomberg]

Let's get one thing out of the way: At no point was a ban even considered. Our goal was to get you to understand why we don't want you doing this, not to remove you from the server.

Another thing: "reportedly" is the key word in what I've said.

Now, let's consider the fact that keeping someone in the brig actually requires manpower, whereas tossing someone in indefinite holding while you go deal with various murders is a tad simpler. The maximum sentence for a repeat offender is double the stated sentence for that specific offense, which is not particularly impressive in the case of vandalism. With this in mind, I kind of understand why they might have wanted to toss you in holding and be done with it for the round.

[Chaznoodles]

I attempted to contact your compadre and talk about this at the time, but they had already logged.

I perfectly understand where you're coming from in this thread, as well as the opposing side. Sometimes, the staff might come off as harsh, but that's alright, and so is feeling the way you're feeling about this. At the end of the day, we're all here to have fun, and a lot of that comes through creating fun for others, who will create it for you. If I may ask, and I understand that you've said you probably won't use this character again, would it be possible for you and your fellow to try and integrate with the players of Auroras, before trying to create conflict? You gave it a good try which is nice, but it could just take a little bit of getting to know the players before it works!

As one of the staff members online at the time of this, the message I got from the reporting players was that you had been doing this for roundup round, which is apparently not the case, as far as I can see. This seems to be a little bit of a misunderstanding on the part of the staff who took on the case as to how severe it was, and your intentions behind it.

[Serveris]

I have a hard time understanding how security appearntly works on this server. The natural reaction would be to put a repeat offender in for 20 or 30 minutes, not perma-brig them. Why was this not considered? It seems like that its either 2 minutes or perma-brig (or a ban), which doesn't seem like very prudent security work. Also, reportedly making a habit is kind of strongly worded, making it sound like I have been doing this for weeks. Doing this for quarter of a round and another full round hardly justifies banning me when I act annoyingly in a situation I know nothing of.

Right, I understand that small time antags don't actually exist, but the idea was to create a character where I had a good reason to do something that would be semi-breaking the law without having to play a murderer or something else which would just be griefing. Talking about it and hearing the feedback from you guys I probably won't be using the character again, but the way it was handled this round was just not up to par with what I expect from this server.

 

Concerning the bit of stacking a thirty minute sentence against you, this is doable, but will catch a head of security some serious flak.

'Sir, why is this man in the brig for an hour?'

'Vandalism.'

'That's fifty minutes more than a maximum penalty for vandalism should be, you're literally Hitler.'

More often than not, if you insist on causing problems for security during an emergency situation, they will keep you in the prison wing until the alert level is lowered. This generally requires admin permission, though. Sound familiar to your situation? This was the command team's intention in involving admins in the first place.

As said in my previous post, I do enjoy encounters like this as security and command. They make slow rounds more interesting. Like all things, however, there is a proper time for them to occur. The rounds in question were simply not the right time for your flavor of antagonizing.

This being said, I do indeed look forward to the day I play an rp-rev with you, as you seem to have a great amount of potential in filling that role.

My advice to take from this whole encounter? Maybe not completely lose the edgy attitude in your characters. Just tone it down a bit, perhaps, do that incidents like this don't repeat themselves. There are plenty of edgy/passive aggressive characters on Aurora, but the really memorable ones don't end up overshadowing/drowning out the true antagonists when they decide to make their appearence.

This has been said already, but I was not the only one that brought this to administration. There were several, I believe, and not all of them were even security/command. They were regular players our observers that simply didn't approve of your actions, for whatever reason.

[Bobsenjr]

@ DoombergI understand the point of throwing people in the brig, but the problem could've been easily solved by security by throwing me in the brig for 20-30 minutes instead of making it an admin issue. If they seriously considered throwing me in the perma-brig, surely they would not have an issue against throwing me in the brig for a longer amount of time.

Again I feel that this entire thing should have been solved as an in character action, a role play action, instead of making it an administrative issue.

@Chaznoodles

Yeah it definitely isn't a bad blood kind of situation, I understand both sides, but I feel that it could have been handled better. Regarding integrating more, I felt like I a tleast was a little integrated (with other characters, Melvin Malvinas and all that jazz) but I think you might be right in that a character needs more introduction before it is used in this way.

[Bobsenjr]

@Serveris

Well, from what I saw during that round you were already being called out on torture, so being upgraded to Hitler doesn't seem like a big step

I still think that a 20 or 30 minute prison sentence for that sort of repeat offending is fine, and I have been judged as such before and I accepted it. And I understand that this was not the right round for it, and if I had known better back when the incident happened I would've probably done it less so or not at all.

And the character was never really meant to be edgy, but more as a loveable idiot. My previous interactions with sec was always centered around being steadfast around drawing art around the station but always showing up when called in for an arrest, just to avoid being an edgy "you can't catch me" kind of character.

And if other players found it annoying then so be it, but I still feel it was an IC issue and should have been dealt with IC'ly, not by admins.

[Guest Menown]

And if other players found it annoying then so be it, but I still feel it was an IC issue and should have been dealt with IC'ly, not by admins.

 

It was. But we knew, that when released, you and your friend would just vandalize the station again, as it had happened previously times. It had gotten to the point where we were considering spacing all of the crayons. Because you and your friend had decided to continually break the same law repeatedly, the escalation of time limits was proving pointless. ICly, we would hold you until transfer, in which point you would likely be fired, but since you choose to retcon any crimes, you get away scot-free.

[Doomberg]

You stated pretty clearly that your character is supposed to be a constant "revolutionary", so to speak. We chose to intervene because this was a long-term problem, which would not be solved by simply brigging you again, as you proved by being a repeat offender. Thus, you were contacted in hopes that we may rectify this.

[Bobsenjr]

@Meowykins

Right, I can see how that would be frustrating and it is maybe the primary weakness about how we roleplayed that day, but the escalation of time limits was 4 minutes and then 8 minutes (I seem to remember, might be off). It was never really attempted to put us in for a longer time. And yes, I guess it could be seen as an "exploit" to get away scot free, but only in the same way that anyone else who commits a crime gets away with it at round end.

@Doomberg.

I understand the logic behind pulling us via the admins, but I still feel like security did the least possible to engage in the world and actually roleplay with us. A longer sentence (30 or so minutes) could've easily given security the breathing room they needed without having to make it a admin matter and therefore ending the roleplay that was underway.

I feel we've all talked through it sufficiently and seeing as the majority of staff (Or so it seems) agrees with the admins actions that there probably wont be any changes made as a product of the complaint. I appreciate you all talking with me here on the forums and its been great to hear the other side of the story in a bit more detail. Seeing as more posts will most likely just talk about the same thing over and over I think its best for a final ruling, which I will fully embrace.

[Skull132]

I will say one thing. An alternate solution, and one that I would have let happen, is have security deal with your character, Bobsen, as they would have sought fit and let the round play out. And then contact you at the end of the round, and run, basically a review. Though this may have resulted in you being permabrigged for causing difficulties in a high stress situation, and them just opting to make away with you.

Also, wasn't there, but if Sec really didn't communicate with you much beyond arresting and so on, then we may have an issue. Although, I hope that the majority of the players present at the time (at least two did: the HoS and Meowy) read this and take some advice.

[VikingPingvin]

Locked and archived for aging.